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John Doe 187

@5.135.78.x
reply to TraderOne

Re: Teksavvy Voltage motion - Looking for some advice

I agree with this. I believe the service provider should be doing something to protect their customer's interest along with their own. If they are unwilling to question such requests now how many more requests will be made to them in the future? It just seems this fight to set some precedence is worthwhile and something Teksavvy should be seeking to do.

After January 14 I will be cancelling my internet with Teksavvy and subscribing with someone else who has my best interest in mind if nothing happens. Let’s see what my service provider is willing to do for my interest right instead of the other way around.


qweloo

join:2007-10-04
reply to jamesvca

said by jamesvca:

How to fight Copyright Trolls

Speculative Invoicing Handbook, Download PDF

»www.dropbox.com/s/bc8nr49vq0ukf9···olls.pdf

Read this. It is pretty good.

It explains clearly why the number 1 priority is NOT PAY.

If they want your money, let them spend money and go through the courts. Especially when the minimum fine is 100$ and it costs them 1000$ per court appearance per IP + fees from TSI to find the info for them.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to John Doe 187

said by John Doe 187 :

I agree with this. I believe the service provider should be doing something to protect their customer's interest along with their own. If they are unwilling to question such requests now how many more requests will be made to them in the future? It just seems this fight to set some precedence is worthwhile and something Teksavvy should be seeking to do.

After January 14 I will be cancelling my internet with Teksavvy and subscribing with someone else who has my best interest in mind if nothing happens. Let’s see what my service provider is willing to do for my interest right instead of the other way around.

Bell, Cogeco & Videotron didn't fight a court order from Voltage in Sept 2011 back when they could have easily argued privacy rights & evidence issues based on the 2004 decision.

Other TPIA providers decided not to fight November 2012. Before this 'neutral' requirement in the act which indemnifies them from liability from their customers' downloading. It wasn't in place til end of Nov I think? They wouldn't have been held liable for their customer's downloading practices no matter what.

As for now, they have to be 'neutral' whatever the hell that is, with no described standard for what 'neutral' is, and what ISPs can or can't do while remaining immune from liability.

Other ISPs have larger windows in which they keep IP address info..

I'm just curious who you plan on going with.. (No, I'm not being sarcastic.. I'm curious as to who you think will do better than Teksavvy in protecting your privacy).
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

I think the trolls' idea of an isp is any open wifi router it can leech from. Cause as far as I know there isn't a single ISP in Canada that does what that troll wants.



TraderOne

@teksavvy.com
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

The difference is that with 1, you have the option of getting yourself a lawyer first to fight the court order that would reveal your information. With the 2nd, I don't believe you get time to find a lawyer and fight the court order before your information has to be legally handed over under penalty from the courts.

What I am saying is that notifying its customer or not makes no difference on Teksavvy's stance on protecting its customers' privacy. At the end, Teksavvy will happily hand over its customers' private information. Teksavvy does not give a sh*t about protecting its customers' privacy.

said by resa1983:

1.
The 'private' information that Voltage wants, is essentially, your billing information (minus your actual credit card numbers, etc) which TSI needs to keep on file as long as you're a customer.. They need to know name, address, phone numbers, etc. ie, Contact info & address of service.

I think the only thing they keep 90 days, is the IP address history. I'm sorry, unlike some others, I do believe child porn investigations are a good reason to keep IP history for 90 days. That kind of scum deserve to be locked in a hole.

But the 90 days is also for billing discrepancies to be dealt with, as well as dealing with those DMC charges Bell doesn't bother charging TSI immediately for, and sometimes bills DMC charges for no actual rollout. Those need to be fought, and they need to have supporting info.

I consider the linking between IP address and my personal identification as my private information. It tells where i go in the internet. That is what happens in the Voltage's troll. I don't mean I will do bad thing in the internet. It is just that I want to browse the web freely without being tracked by some unknown third party. So, Please don't tell me something like "if you do nothing wrong, you don't have to be scared". If you do believe "if you do nothing wrong, you don't have to be scared", I will take a camera and follow you all around and tell you " if you do nothing wrong, you don't have to be scared".

I don't think child porn investigation is a good reason to keep a 90 days log. A 2 days log can help child porn investigation as well. Child porn investigation is important. Protecting people's privacy is also important. I don't see how child porn investigation over rules privacy protection.

If Teksavvy has a business need to keep 90 days log. I have no problem with that as long as Teksavvy guards this log of private information as hard as it can. But, Notifying its customers by saying "We will hand over your private information. Sorry, you are on your own" is not a good way of showing how much Teksavvy values their customers' privacy. It just simply shows Teksavvy does not care about its customers' privacy at all.


bbchris2nd
Joke Factory

join:2010-09-03
Australia
reply to John Doe 187

I agree TSI is an ISP and they abide the law.

They won't save your ass same as other TPIA.

But I think something must be done to stop this troll.
--
Be brave even if you're not. Pretend to be. No one can tell the difference.



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

said by John Doe 187 :

I agree with this. I believe the service provider should be doing something to protect their customer's interest along with their own. If they are unwilling to question such requests now how many more requests will be made to them in the future? It just seems this fight to set some precedence is worthwhile and something Teksavvy should be seeking to do.

After January 14 I will be cancelling my internet with Teksavvy and subscribing with someone else who has my best interest in mind if nothing happens. Let’s see what my service provider is willing to do for my interest right instead of the other way around.

Bell, Cogeco & Videotron didn't fight a court order from Voltage in Sept 2011 back when they could have easily argued privacy rights & evidence issues based on the 2004 decision.

Other TPIA providers decided not to fight November 2012. Before this 'neutral' requirement in the act which indemnifies them from liability from their customers' downloading. It wasn't in place til end of Nov I think? They wouldn't have been held liable for their customer's downloading practices no matter what.

As for now, they have to be 'neutral' whatever the hell that is, with no described standard for what 'neutral' is, and what ISPs can or can't do while remaining immune from liability.

Other ISPs have larger windows in which they keep IP address info..

I'm just curious who you plan on going with.. (No, I'm not being sarcastic.. I'm curious as to who you think will do better than Teksavvy in protecting your privacy).

Comparing in that context is a far cry. Just because the big 3 do or don't do something doesn't mean it's ok for TSI to do or not to do something.

Isn't TSI different? I'm not even arguing about privacy or IP issues, just your argument. Quit comparing TSI to them. Everyone should quit comparing Teksavvy to anyone. They're not comparable, period.

If one user chooses to leave, doesn't mean we all should debate what one or the other did and didn't do. This is about Teksavvy. It really doesn't matter who they go with, it's not them Voltage is after right now, and Teksavvy may be Voltages go to ISP for for some time to come.


TraderOne

@teksavvy.com
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

2.
The thing is, that Teksavvy didn't have to inform customers about the court order until AFTER it was already issued. They also didn't have to fight the court order - a few other ISPs in November didn't.

TSI fought for extension of the court order in order to inform their customers, and buy people time to get lawyers and make a decision as to what to do.

I expect everybody to do their job and fulfill their own obligations. There are three parties involved in the Voltage't troll, Voltage, Teksavvy, Teksavvy's customers.

For Voltage, its job is to scare people to get its dirty money. Its obligation is to die miserably because it really creates a bad reputation for itself.

For Teksavvy's customers, their obligation is to browse the web wisely. Their job is to find legal assistance to protect themselves and not to expect somebody else to do it for themselves when sh*t litigation comes up .

For Teksavvy, its job is to provide its customer's with supreme internet service. Their obligation is to protect its customers privacy when sh*t litigation comes up.

Everyone needs to do their own work and fulfill their obligation. Customers will hire lawyers to fight in the court does not mean it is OK for Teksavvy to lay back and hand over its customers' private information without a fight ( Notifying its customers is not a fight).

Sure, Teksavvy does not need to inform customers about the court order before it is issued. Sure, a few ISPs in Canada just hand over their customers information without a blink of eyes. But, that does not mean Teksavvy is doing a good job by rolling over after informing its customers. A piece of sh*t stinks less in a pile of sh*t does not make it a diamond. It is still a piece of sh*t.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to Tx

said by Tx:

Comparing in that context is a far cry. Just because the big 3 do or don't do something doesn't mean it's ok for TSI to do or not to do something.

Isn't TSI different? I'm not even arguing about privacy or IP issues, just your argument. Quit comparing TSI to them. Everyone should quit comparing Teksavvy to anyone. They're not comparable, period.

If one user chooses to leave, doesn't mean we all should debate what one or the other did and didn't do. This is about Teksavvy. It really doesn't matter who they go with, it's not them Voltage is after right now, and Teksavvy may be Voltages go to ISP for for some time to come.

And what about my comparison of the TPIA providers who didn't fight back in Nov 2012?
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by resa1983:

said by Tx:

Comparing in that context is a far cry. Just because the big 3 do or don't do something doesn't mean it's ok for TSI to do or not to do something.

Isn't TSI different? I'm not even arguing about privacy or IP issues, just your argument. Quit comparing TSI to them. Everyone should quit comparing Teksavvy to anyone. They're not comparable, period.

If one user chooses to leave, doesn't mean we all should debate what one or the other did and didn't do. This is about Teksavvy. It really doesn't matter who they go with, it's not them Voltage is after right now, and Teksavvy may be Voltages go to ISP for for some time to come.

And what about my comparison of the TPIA providers who didn't fight back in Nov 2012?

Same rules apply. Marc has time and time again said Teksavvy is not them. They pride themselves for being a different, better option.

Compare bell, rogers, telus all you like, they're in eachothers pockets... but TSI is a whole new ball game. They are absolutely different and moves they make every year will define them 10 years from now.


John Doe 187

@5.135.78.x
reply to resa1983

As far as which provider I will be switching to I have yet to decide and need some time to do some research. I just don't want to cancel my internet right now as I need to be up to date and is less on the priority list but I will be cancelling once more information comes out.



John Doe 187

@5.135.78.x
reply to Tx

I agree to this. I mean you cave the first time they will come for seconds, thirds, etc... Voltage and company are hungry to recoup revenue they would have never made in the first place and exploiting the court system to do so. It’s sad but the old dollar bill rules.

That alone is enough reason for me to leave TSI. Weather there is a better ISP out there is not relevant but I choose to believe something else must be better. I choose TSI because they fought for bandwidth and now there is another fight coming and they unwilling to go the extra mile so I like them can make a decision too.


JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
reply to Tx

I agree. I signed up with TSI because they claimed to be different and care about their customers. This lack of action in my opinion does not support their claims.

Maybe doing nothing won't hurt TSI and maybe it will but for myself I rather go with another ISP. Which ISP that will be is unknown and I don’t have the time to worry about now. But I do know is I am not staying with them after Jan 14th or when I get this matter dealt with. Maybe I won't be sheltered by the new ISP, maybe I will, I am not sure, but what I do know is if the trolls know you are willing to give up your customers… be prepared for them to come back again and again... I for one don't want to stick around for the second dinner!


qweloo

join:2007-10-04
reply to bbchris2nd

said by bbchris2nd:

I agree TSI is an ISP and they abide the law.

Yes and there is no law on logs retention time ..... so TSI can keep no logs if they wanted too going forward (or 1-3 day logging).

That would be a BIG sign that they care about their customers privacy.

Bugblndr

join:2010-03-02
Burlington, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL

said by qweloo See Profile
Yes and there is no law on logs retention time ..... so TSI can keep no logs if they wanted too going forward (or 1-3 day logging).

That would be a BIG sign that they care about their customers privacy.

That would be a BIG sign to all those into child porn that they are the ISP for them. TSI wisely doesn't want that reputation.



elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2

Thank you Tricky Vic, your judgeship is assured.


funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to bullwinkle

said by bullwinkle:

said by Brandon411 :

Does anyone actually think it's the responsibility of the accused to show up with a lawyer to oppose this initial motion??

Note - I am not a lawyer, so take this with a non-lawyerly grain of salt.

If the accused wants to be 100% assured that the privacy issues are raised in court in reference to the motion for disclosure, then, yes, that individual should make sure that he/she has appropriate legal representation at the hearing, who can oppose the motion on some or all of the grounds that have already been raised here and elsewhere. An ISP may choose to oppose on the same grounds - or not - depending on the legal advice they receive. Third parties such as CIPPIC may seek to intervene in order to raise the same issues, but their participation is not an entitlement, and they might not be allowed to participate.

The subject of such a disclosure motion, however, is absolutely entitled to be represented, so again, the only way for the subject of a disclosure motion to guarantee that someone will be able to argue about the privacy implications would be to arrange specific representation themselves.

said by Brandon411 :

This is the JOB of the ISP!

Well, no. The job of the ISP is to fulfill the terms of the contracts they have with their customers. They are not obligated to advocate on your behalf in court. Whether they choose to do so in specific circumstances will be based on the legal advice that they receive with respect to risks, probabilities, potential liabilities, and their own best interests as a corporate entity.

Let's remember, too, that TekSavvy did not simply hand over information to Voltage. They requested that the court postpone the motion hearing to allow enough time to notify those affected - which in turn has allowed CIPPIC to step forward, and given those affected the chance to prepare as they see fit. I don't think that TekSavvy is getting enough credit for that good act.

your right and wrong
WHILE it snot THERE JOB, there are laws and moral obligations of privacy and truth and justice ....one simply does not enter a contract with anyone and one half does so on bad faith that they will do as they wish....like ive said if they dont want this to start costing them a lot of time and effort then they should stand up against it and do so on moral and legal grounds that there can be no way anyone can show or tell me just by seeing a list of ip addresses that commercial infringement is taking place ...i can draw that up and fake bit torrent client looks ....the term reasonable doubt plays in all courts although it is less strict in civil courts. IF you want to violate my privacy and aid and abet in harassing and slandering and defaming my or anyones good name in an incorrect filing putting myself or others in with real pirating and real counterfietors so they can harrass and extort the weak minded and prey on those that have no clue to there rights... .....then get ready for a class action lawsuit to come your way.
TSI has made it clear in many postings around here that they claim to be standing on side of there users and just happens they are customers, and while i dont sign a contract there is one technically by law.

i ought to make a video on encryption use and post it here and have teksavvy post it on there website and send it to every customer they have.

To those that still torrent ...i say to you this the days of being at a large site with tons of people are over...too much risk for you and its too hard to keep those places safe and most admins of such know it and don't care or when heat gets turned up run off leaving everyone else buggered....

and even as you claim TSI had time to warn people and not make any deals with voltage. NO CIVIL case is automatically heard and this one took a month to get to that hearing. they could have spilled hte beans on it regardless and used the privacy act as a shield....then they could have said when your lawyer learns what commerical and non commerical is come back and bother people ....

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Newuser1

said by Newuser1 :

It's scary to think that someone like Voltage can demand my personal information base on IPs I hope someone stands up to them.

thats yet to be actually determined here....I'll add that if thats the case then i want everyones info cause your all infringing OH ill drop case after i get your info
and then i will have everyones information. THEY want this info for two reasons
A) so they can check on what else your doing on the net and by your real name and then really start pestering and /or get mroe info to invade your privacy , think facebook (american) twitter et all.

B) to send out extorting letters when no one has done any commercial infringement ( in my opinion )

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

odd cant quote you
all ihav eto say is your wrong more or less
cause after you get my information using a false filing we file a class action countersuit that says your wrongly filed for commerical infringment with no proof and then ask for an injunction to stop any and all monies that you gain until the countersuit can be heard.

that buys a lot of time and EVERY person has the right to an attorney after this and if you lawyer up 2300 people and get each and everyone of them to hear those charges and then do the countersuit in the proper class action fashion it cna get heard a lot quicker and thus it will have been heard before that main case and then there gonna have problems.

not a lawyer just played a tactical simulation games..lol

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Pharaoh11

said by Pharaoh11:

Don't worry too too much about this.
There already precedents dealing with these types of cases and its why no case of this type has been won.

'Your IP is like a phone number and though its under your name there no way to know for sure who on the other end.

You could be sharing the internet or friend could be online and so on.

Never cave into this type of scare tactic.

if your wire tap a telephone you can hear a voice
with the internet thats not the case.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

said by Pharaoh11:

Don't worry too too much about this.
There already precedents dealing with these types of cases and its why no case of this type has been won.

'Your IP is like a phone number and though its under your name there no way to know for sure who on the other end.

You could be sharing the internet or friend could be online and so on.

Never cave into this type of scare tactic.

The problem is that the precedents are all from 2004 (back when there were different laws), and from the US (which has different laws than us). Who knows what'll happen.

no class action lawsuit like htis has been done in canada, and like i said they dont have any changes that state all the people being sued cant have charges fully read in court and that takes a tona time with 2300 people. NOT to mention should a person whom didnt download file (a) be in a lawsuit with a person whom downloaded a differant file and only file (b) while you have persons 3-4 that did only file (c) and file (d)
and person 5 that did them all.
seems to me like differant cases to be heard ....

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to qweloo

said by qweloo:

said by jamesvca:

How to fight Copyright Trolls

Speculative Invoicing Handbook, Download PDF

»www.dropbox.com/s/bc8nr49vq0ukf9···olls.pdf

Read this. It is pretty good.

It explains clearly why the number 1 priority is NOT PAY.

If they want your money, let them spend money and go through the courts. Especially when the minimum fine is 100$ and it costs them 1000$ per court appearance per IP + fees from TSI to find the info for them.

they arent filing for NON COMMERICIAL INFRINGMENT
they want commerical punitive damages of 10000 per file per instance of the file.

NOT non commerical 100-5000 for all your infringments as this clearly is and they ought to get punished as you cant plead ignorance of the law....and this is what and why TSI should have pounced on in my opinion.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

said by John Doe 187 :

I agree with this. I believe the service provider should be doing something to protect their customer's interest along with their own. If they are unwilling to question such requests now how many more requests will be made to them in the future? It just seems this fight to set some precedence is worthwhile and something Teksavvy should be seeking to do.

After January 14 I will be cancelling my internet with Teksavvy and subscribing with someone else who has my best interest in mind if nothing happens. Let’s see what my service provider is willing to do for my interest right instead of the other way around.

Bell, Cogeco & Videotron didn't fight a court order from Voltage in Sept 2011 back when they could have easily argued privacy rights & evidence issues based on the 2004 decision.

Other TPIA providers decided not to fight November 2012. Before this 'neutral' requirement in the act which indemnifies them from liability from their customers' downloading. It wasn't in place til end of Nov I think? They wouldn't have been held liable for their customer's downloading practices no matter what.

As for now, they have to be 'neutral' whatever the hell that is, with no described standard for what 'neutral' is, and what ISPs can or can't do while remaining immune from liability.

Other ISPs have larger windows in which they keep IP address info..

I'm just curious who you plan on going with.. (No, I'm not being sarcastic.. I'm curious as to who you think will do better than Teksavvy in protecting your privacy).

and all three own and produce movies and tv...gee wonder why, cause then they can come after you easier for there stuff.
thats why its bias to have an isp with iptv or owning cable or satallite tv/movies.

funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to resa1983

so far no one is fighting back really if cippic doesn't get intervene status its being handed to voltage.

enjoy


funny

join:2010-12-22
reply to Bugblndr

said by Bugblndr:

said by qweloo See Profile
Yes and there is no law on logs retention time ..... so TSI can keep no logs if they wanted too going forward (or 1-3 day logging).

That would be a BIG sign that they care about their customers privacy.

That would be a BIG sign to all those into child porn that they are the ISP for them. TSI wisely doesn't want that reputation.

no it would not
rcmp and csis monitor for that and if they see a canuck ip at a place they will get the proper warrant and then your in biggie trouble

the law regarding that as currently sits is no matter where a Canadian is or what site anywhere on earth he visits OUR laws are there and in place to prosecute.

PRE CRIME is not crime either you cant accuse me or anyone of something we haven't nor will do to justify rights taking.


Jeffer71

join:2008-09-13
Carrying Place, ON
Reviews:
·Acanac
reply to John Doe 187

said by John Doe 187 :

I agree with this. I believe the service provider should be doing something to protect their customer's interest along with their own. If they are unwilling to question such requests now how many more requests will be made to them in the future? It just seems this fight to set some precedence is worthwhile and something Teksavvy should be seeking to do.

After January 14 I will be cancelling my internet with Teksavvy and subscribing with someone else who has my best interest in mind if nothing happens. Let’s see what my service provider is willing to do for my interest right instead of the other way around.

I don't put faith in anyone but myself when it comes to protecting my privacy online.

Anyone that expects it from their ISP is delusional and ignorant.

Take the bull by the horn and protect yourselves.

It's not like the internet and online security issues are virgin territory, this shit has been going on for years.

Grappler

join:2002-09-01
Ottawa, ON
reply to Dr Facts

said by Dr Facts :

The worst thing you can do is ignore it, do not do this. Voltage wants you to so they can go to court and get a judgment against you no fuss or muss. They can then sell the judgment to a collection agency and then you're life will become that much harder. They won't care about right or wrong, they have a legal document that say you owe them money, the end.

They cannot get a judgement without the service of a court order to appear (read - summons), for the opportunity to appear in court. We are talking about a "letter of intent" this is not a court order to appear. No judgement can be rendered against a person without having given them an opportunity to appear in court.


dillyhammer
START me up
Premium,MVM
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to resa1983

said by resa1983:

I'm curious as to who you think will do better than Teksavvy in protecting your privacy

If people stand around and do nothing, how the hell are ISPs going to get the message the handing off our private information is a bad thing?

What people need to do is make this experience as painful as possible, so that any ISP considering giving up the info at the drop of a hat thinks twice.

Let's face it. This was a risk assessment exercise by TSI. They simply weighed the possible outcomes of fighting versus rolling over, and decided that rolling over was less risk.

We as a community need to change that perception.

The message we need to send is, "if you roll over, it will cost you, and big time".

There needs to be a backlash for rolling over like this. It needs to be swift, and extremely painful. Once it goes public that TSI released the info I think we're going to see some of that.

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


dontbackdown

@nltelcom.com

What we are witnessing is the death of an ISP. Inside of 5 years Teksavvy will be gone if they roll over. The whole business model was about protecting the customer and they will have effectively thrown it out the window. If they fight the business will grow, if they don't it will die. Everybody stuck with Teksavvy through thick and thin because of this.


bullwinkle

join:2011-03-19
Nepean, ON

said by dontbackdown :

The whole business model was about protecting the customer and they will have effectively thrown it out the window. If they fight the business will grow, if they don't it will die. Everybody stuck with Teksavvy through thick and thin because of this.

I have to disagree with you. As far as I can tell, it's more that their business model was about providing better - or at least, differentiated - value to customers. Their prior battles with the incumbents and the regulators were about sustaining their ability to provide their current and potential consumers as an aggregate with those other choices. That's very different from your expectation that they should defend individual customers who may have been implicated in court proceedings.

If your choice of ISP does depend on having that expectation met, then, yeah, you should look elsewhere for service.