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Phoneman63

join:2001-02-22
Hauppauge, NY
Reviews:
·Optimum Online

Sony patents way to block used games

»www.afterdawn.com/news/article.c···20130104
--
"Leave the gun, take the cannoli"



Weirdal
Premium
join:2003-06-28
Grand Island, NE
kudos:21

Won't really be necessary. Digital-only console games will come soon enough.
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»[Info] The DSLR Orangeface extension 2.0!



danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Urbandale, IA

You overestimate the accessibility to high speed uncapped broadband people in the U.S. and Canada have. Many console gamers are college students - the university I attended does not permit students to attach any other devices other than a personal computer to their network - that includes game consoles and routers. Many students are gamers. If they don't have access to the internet to download the games, they won't buy the console. And even among people who don't have that issue, many people are now living in cap-land, where they are limited to how much they can download per month before either being threatened with being booted from their ISP or having to pay overage charges.

The day that Sony actually makes use of that patent is the day I stop purchasing their consoles and products. I also won't purchase a digital-only console. I like physical copies of things that I spend $40-60 on.

They shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them. The 2nd hand market probably fuels plenty of sales of non-second hand items, such as the consoles themselves, peripherals for those consoles, other games, subscriptions to their online services for multiplayer, etc. It's the same fallacy the TV and movie industry is in - just because someone buys an item 2nd hand doesn't mean they ever would have purchased it new in the first place. You can't prove that there ever would have been a sale to lose in the first place.
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You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...


biohazard326

join:2005-05-28
Romulus, MI
reply to Weirdal

said by Weirdal:

Won't really be necessary. Digital-only console games will come soon enough.

Ok here is a problem from my point of view with this. I AGRESSIVELY collect used games on multiple systems. If this goes through I essentially will have spent pointless money on Sony games. There is just no way they can have anything like this go through. That and personally, I would never buy a "digital-only" console.


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to Weirdal

I read an article a few months ago that the console makers decided to put off a digital only game console for a while. Mainly because there are still several million people without brandband connections. They either have dial up, satellite, or no internet service at all.
They article stated digital only will come, but not for a while.

Then you will have a fight with ISPs that impose usage caps.
--
Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.



Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to Phoneman63

I tend to rent or buy used games. Very seldom do I buy new. So this would suck if Sony went forward with this.
I think what would happen is Sony would offer an "unlock" key. you pay the fee and then you can play the game.


TherapyChick

join:2003-09-19
Fayetteville, NC

I heard the Xbox was going this direction as well.

So if they both go this route, those of you who are refusing to buy this type of console, what are you going to do?

Figure MS and Sony don't make a dime on used games, so can't blame them from a business perspective on trying to figure out how to make the most profit. Not that I'd be happy with it, but makes some sense from business.

Especially if they both know the other is doing it, gives them more leverage. Is everyone going to switch to the Wii?
--
Therapy Chicks



danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Urbandale, IA

said by TherapyChick:

I heard the Xbox was going this direction as well.

So if they both go this route, those of you who are refusing to buy this type of console, what are you going to do?

Figure MS and Sony don't make a dime on used games, so can't blame them from a business perspective on trying to figure out how to make the most profit. Not that I'd be happy with it, but makes some sense from business.

Especially if they both know the other is doing it, gives them more leverage. Is everyone going to switch to the Wii?

Why is there this assumption that people can only enjoy one console at a time? I have a 360, a Wii U, and I'd have a PS3 right now if I could justify the price. If they went this route, I'd quit console gaming (with any company that chose that route). They maybe don't make money directly off second-hand sales, but I have my doubts they *lose* money either - like I said in my previous post, a second hand sale is not 100% proof the person would have paid full price for your game. I'd argue the used market for games has ended up increasing the sales of the consoles as a whole, because it makes the buy-in price less steep than $250 + $50-60 per game.

Walk into any thrift store, and it's full of second-hand goods. I don't see the Gap trying to ban people from buying second hand Gap clothing at Goodwill. This is a "problem" (and I use that term sarcastically) that plagues almost every industry that produces goods for the end-user. There's second hand books, second hand clothes, second hand CARS (imagine Toyota trying to prevent people from reselling their cars), CDs, movies, board games, toys, dishes...see where this is going? What makes the video game industry think they're so special they need to prevent a second hand market from existing?

TherapyChick

join:2003-09-19
Fayetteville, NC

said by danawhitaker:

said by TherapyChick:

I heard the Xbox was going this direction as well.

So if they both go this route, those of you who are refusing to buy this type of console, what are you going to do?

Figure MS and Sony don't make a dime on used games, so can't blame them from a business perspective on trying to figure out how to make the most profit. Not that I'd be happy with it, but makes some sense from business.

Especially if they both know the other is doing it, gives them more leverage. Is everyone going to switch to the Wii?

Why is there this assumption that people can only enjoy one console at a time? I have a 360, a Wii U, and I'd have a PS3 right now if I could justify the price. If they went this route, I'd quit console gaming (with any company that chose that route). They maybe don't make money directly off second-hand sales, but I have my doubts they *lose* money either - like I said in my previous post, a second hand sale is not 100% proof the person would have paid full price for your game. I'd argue the used market for games has ended up increasing the sales of the consoles as a whole, because it makes the buy-in price less steep than $250 + $50-60 per game.

Walk into any thrift store, and it's full of second-hand goods. I don't see the Gap trying to ban people from buying second hand Gap clothing at Goodwill. This is a "problem" (and I use that term sarcastically) that plagues almost every industry that produces goods for the end-user. There's second hand books, second hand clothes, second hand CARS (imagine Toyota trying to prevent people from reselling their cars), CDs, movies, board games, toys, dishes...see where this is going? What makes the video game industry think they're so special they need to prevent a second hand market from existing?

Good points about other industry second hand "problems", the only argument I'd make against it though is if the Gap or bookstores actually had the technology to somehow make it so you couldn't re-sell their shirts, maybe they would. The thing with consoles is that these companies CAN make it happen. And getting back to books, with the way Kindle, iBooks, and other online books are going they can and do sometimes prevent you from reselling a book you buy.

And as far as reselling games go, have you ever bought a game that you simply downloaded vs buying the physical disc? If so, you obviously can't resell that now anyway.

So instead of making it so you can't play used game discs, maybe in the near future they'll make it so games are download-only, or maybe bought at a discount if downloaded and then you can't resell them anyway.

And I don't believe in my previous post I made an assumption that people can only enjoy one console at a time, not sure where that came from but that certainly wasn't my intention to imply that.
--
Therapy Chicks


danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Urbandale, IA

I do admit, I have bought some digital versions of games instead of getting the physical discs. But those are games (World of Warcraft: Catalcysm, WoW: Mists of Pandaria, and Diablo III) that are tied directly to an account anyway. That's standard for MMORPGs whether you buy the physical disc or not, and Diablo III I actually got for free. I've also purchased some digital versions of Angry Birds and the like for PC and for my daughter's iPod Touch. But I guess for me, it's not about being able to turn around and resell them when I get bored. It's about the fact that I enjoy the buying aspect of the used games. Sometimes I like going into Gamestop and just browsing around and seeing what I can find a bargain on. In some cases, it's impossible to find some games brand new for the 360, simply because they've been on the market so long.

Actually, my dream job would be to have my own game store, and since second hand sales would inevitably be a large part of that business, this is something that concerns me and that I'm passionate about. I worry then that they'd start crossing the line into finding a way to prohibit second-hand hardware sales too. I see it as a slippery slope.

You're probably correct though, in that many industries would love to have the ability to prevent second-hand sales but just don't have the capability. This is one reason I'm hesitant to embrace pure digital in any format, be it music, video, books, or games. I have tons of physical books that I have no desire to repurchase, and about 500 music CDs, and a few dozen seasons of various TV shows.

Part of me is a bit surprised that the latest generation of consoles hadn't moved to a system of a key being required to be attached to a Live or PSN or Nintendo account already, which really wouldn't require any special patenting on their part - it's a system that PC games have used for years. Somewhere in the back of my mind I swear there was a console game that did use a key system of some sort, but I'm having trouble remembering which one it was or if it even exists.

Edit: Phantasy Star Online for Dreamcast had something like that. Knew I wasn't crazy.



Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to TherapyChick

quote:
So instead of making it so you can't play used game discs, maybe in the near future they'll make it so games are download-only, or maybe bought at a discount if downloaded and then you can't resell them anyway.

One idea on disk based games. You have to enter the code on the disk jacket to play the game. If the code has been used, then you can purchase a new code for 5, 10 bucks [what ever the publisher sets as the price]. Then you get a new code.
So if you buy a collectors edition of the game from a used store, you can get a news code that will unlock all the features that came with that game when it was brand new.
But that was an idea I read about awhile ago. If I recall, EA required me to log into my EA account when I played Mass Effect 3 on my PS3. Supposedly so i can track my progress against others, and what not. But I could see that log in being used to check and see if the disk was new or used.
And it wouldn't surprise me if EA was the first one to do that. Offer new keys for used games.
--
Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to danawhitaker

quote:
This is one reason I'm hesitant to embrace pure digital in any format, be it music, video, books, or games. I have tons of physical books that I have no desire to repurchase, and about 500 music CDs, and a few dozen seasons of various TV shows.

That is the biggest problem with digital media. Buy an Ipad app, then you get an Android device and have to repurchase that app at full price.
I had a friend that was going to buy music in the google play store for their droid device. Many of the songs he had already paid for on Itunes. I had to show him how to copy them from Itunes to his droid device.
But that only applies to music and movies. I made the mistake of using Ibooks on my Ipad and purchased a few ebooks. I had no idea at the time that it Ibooks would be limited to just Apple products. Once I learned that, I switched to the Nook app and have since purchased all my ebooks from Barnes and Noble. I'll also use the kindle app. No idea why apple won't make Ibooks cross platform. They made itunes and safari cross platform.
--
Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.

TherapyChick

join:2003-09-19
Fayetteville, NC
reply to danawhitaker

I was really just being more of a devil's advocate on the issue, personally I RARELY purchase a new game at the full $50/$60 price tag (exceptions are Bioshock, Mass Effect, Borderlands, and a few others), but for the most part I get games used for $20 or less or borrow them from friends for free.

If they'd drop the price of a new big hit game to $25/$35 then I'd consider buying it as a digital download. On those few games I do purchase at "full price", I do so knowing I can resell them soon for $30 or so.
--
Therapy Chicks


biohazard326

join:2005-05-28
Romulus, MI
reply to TherapyChick

said by TherapyChick:

SNIP
Figure MS and Sony don't make a dime on used games, so can't blame them from a business perspective on trying to figure out how to make the most profit. Not that I'd be happy with it, but makes some sense from business.SNIP

BUT....bear with me and think a bit abstractly here. How many used xbox/360 games are out there? How many of those are xbox live compatible? Now here is where your comment loses some of its backing. I know many people who don't or did not have xbox live....UNTIL they wound up buying something USED on the xbox 360 and they liked it so much they went to XBL. I know its probably a small market in this sense but in this case MS does get a trickle down version of a "used game" market sale.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
reply to Phoneman63

This is just another reason why I don't bother with modern gaming consoles.


TherapyChick

join:2003-09-19
Fayetteville, NC

said by silbaco:

This is just another reason why I don't bother with modern gaming consoles.

Atari 2600 rules!!!
--
Therapy Chicks

Fleeced

join:2012-10-06
kudos:2
reply to Phoneman63

It's probably more pressure from publishers (Activision, EA, etc) than anything else. Unless they're first party titles, I don't think the console manufacturers get a whole lot per game. I know EA has been doing the $10 online pass for used games for a lot of their games, I'm surprised more don't just do that.



danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Urbandale, IA

said by Fleeced:

It's probably more pressure from publishers (Activision, EA, etc) than anything else. Unless they're first party titles, I don't think the console manufacturers get a whole lot per game. I know EA has been doing the $10 online pass for used games for a lot of their games, I'm surprised more don't just do that.

Of course, for those of us who have no interest in playing games online (or for single player games like Cars or the Angry Birds Trilogy which have no option for online play), they would still be "losing money". One of the reasons I have no interest is exactly that. First you have to pay for Live (in the case of the Xbox 360), then some games might want you to pay extra to be able to play online. There's no consistency. At least with a MMORPG like WoW, you know why your $15/month is going to Blizzard. With systems like Live, it's more murky. The games don't seem to be hosted on their servers. The only game I've played online is Band Hero, and that seemed to be hosted on my end since i had to open ports on my router before I could invite my friend to a game successfully. I'm sure some goes to pay for the matchmaking infrastructure, but I can't justify the cost at this time.

I'm curious now what percentage of 360 owners subscribe to Live.

Edit: As a side note, I came across an article that seems to mention this can affect some single-player features. Does anyone know which games and/or which features this might affect off the top of their heads?

Fleeced

join:2012-10-06
kudos:2
reply to Phoneman63

I subscribe to Live, have no qualms for that. But the subscritpion to live doesn't affect the fact that say BF3 (I think) ME3 still has the $10 online pass, regardless what console you're on. So EA's making $10 dollars, pretty sure none of that goes to any of the other console manufacturers.

But you have to have Live to do anything really online. You can't multiplayer at all on Live. I know a few people who don't have an account, but none of them really do anything online.



C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ
reply to Phoneman63

If they do this, they need to:
•drop the msrp for a new game significantly... into the $10~30 category
•put a disclaimer on game discs to warn that the discs would have this on them (much like how BD and HD-DVD movies were to warn if their movies had the ICT token on them - until BluRay won )

Pretty much screams "pirate me!" when they do crap like this. The point of a console was the fact that we didn't have to deal with draconian DRM shit like the majority of non-Steam PC games have.
--
Because, f*ck Sony



Weirdal
Premium
join:2003-06-28
Grand Island, NE
kudos:21

said by C0deZer0:

If they do this, they need to:
•drop the msrp for a new game significantly... into the $10~30 category
•put a disclaimer on game discs to warn that the discs would have this on them (much like how BD and HD-DVD movies were to warn if their movies had the ICT token on them - until BluRay won )

Pretty much screams "pirate me!" when they do crap like this. The point of a console was the fact that we didn't have to deal with draconian DRM shit like the majority of non-Steam PC games have.

Why couldn't a digital content delivery system on consoles do DRM as well as Steam?
--
»[Info] The DSLR Orangeface extension 2.0!


danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Urbandale, IA

said by Weirdal:

said by C0deZer0:

If they do this, they need to:
•drop the msrp for a new game significantly... into the $10~30 category
•put a disclaimer on game discs to warn that the discs would have this on them (much like how BD and HD-DVD movies were to warn if their movies had the ICT token on them - until BluRay won )

Pretty much screams "pirate me!" when they do crap like this. The point of a console was the fact that we didn't have to deal with draconian DRM shit like the majority of non-Steam PC games have.

Why couldn't a digital content delivery system on consoles do DRM as well as Steam?

Because companies cannot 100% guarantee that a user will have internet access for their console. Most of us do, but some people are in a boat where they don't have constant access, or reliable access, or, in the case of some college dorms, aren't allowed to put those machines on the network at all. One reason I've found myself shifting away from being interested in PC gaming the past few years is because of stuff like Steam and Origin, or what Blizzard did with Diablo 3 by forcing you to be online to play the game.

I don't want consoles to be turned into PC gaming machines. That's essentially what this path is. If I pay $50-60 for a new game, I don't want to have to worry about being forced to register it online before I can play single-player offline content.

I may be wrong, but I don't think that console pirating for current generation systems is nearly as rampant as the pirating for PC gaming has been over the years. Except that the companies see used games or rental as "piracy" now I guess and want to do away with it.
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You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...


C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ

1 recommendation

reply to Weirdal

said by Weirdal:

Why couldn't a digital content delivery system on consoles do DRM as well as Steam?

A perfect example is how nintendo is now offering simultaneous release of digital and retail copies of Nintendo 3DS games.

Despite the cost savings (to them) to offer it digitally, they can't/won't pass those savings onto you as the consumer. And as others pointed out, many ISPs now are trying to perform cap-land services.

Unlike a retail copy, there is also no way to at least say loan a copy to a local friend. Sure, there was some game-sharing of ID's for PS3 systems and games, but Sony's since neutered that bonus they had over Microsoft's method of handling things much like they've neutered their PS3 models since launch.

I would be much less opposed myself to get games I know will be good digitally, especially if they are games I would expect to keep a long time, and replay. But even Steam has not yet figured out a way to allow people that want to trade games on their account, without just flat out exchanging/selling their accounts completely.

Isn't the fact that it's being made for a console enough of a DRM? It certainly has been since the 1970's. It's 2013 now, last I checked. It's not like there's ever been cartridge drives for all the different cartridge-based systems (some exceptions notwithstanding).
--
Because, f*ck Sony


Weirdal
Premium
join:2003-06-28
Grand Island, NE
kudos:21

said by C0deZer0:

Isn't the fact that it's being made for a console enough of a DRM?

Unless its a dreamcast.
--
»[Info] The DSLR Orangeface extension 2.0!


C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ

And yet with regard to the Dreamcast, the 'sploit that made it possible is the reason I was able to discover smoe of the true gems on the platform, such as Ikaruga.

I know it's not the most kosher thing to talk about modding systems for that, but I appreciate it for the fact that it usually enables me to discover homebrew or games that I otherwise would have never been able to play on the system in question.
--
Because, f*ck Sony