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diskace
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join:2002-02-21

diskace to MaynardKrebs

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to MaynardKrebs

Re: New pricing 2013 - Electronic Box

@MaynardKrebs

we are not yet ready to answer that question. We are awaiting an official response from our upstream provider. As you may know log retention is irrelevant on cable because the dhcp portion is handled by the carrier and not the tpia.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by diskace:

@MaynardKrebs

we are not yet ready to answer that question. We are awaiting an official response from our upstream provider. As you may know log retention is irrelevant on cable because the dhcp portion is handled by the carrier and not the tpia.

I understand that cable is different than xDSL in that regard.
What are your xDSL policies?

Thanks.

dillyhammer
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Premium Member
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON

dillyhammer

Premium Member

said by MaynardKrebs:

I understand that cable is different than xDSL in that regard.

Hmmm.

How is it different? Do they not keep logs? Or is the upstream keeping logs on people that aren't their customers?

Why does this sound like a can o' worms?

Mike
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by dillyhammer:

said by MaynardKrebs:

I understand that cable is different than xDSL in that regard.

Hmmm.

How is it different? Do they not keep logs? Or is the upstream keeping logs on people that aren't their customers?

Why does this sound like a can o' worms?

My understanding of this my be wrong but I think this is how cable TPIA works.....

1) TPIA customer (Ebox) provides a block of IP's it 'owns' to Rogers, et. al.
2) Rogers, et. al. uses this block of IP addresses for TPIA's customers.
3) TPIA customer (Ebox) does not know which IP address is assigned to which individual user because the IP address assignment is handled by cableco equipment, ergo Rogers, et. al. are the ones who can correlate IP address to modem MAC address, not Ebox.
4) Rogers, et. al. IP address/MAC address correlation retention policies are a black box - nobody really knows what they are.

Whereas with xDSL (not sure if this hold true for "NGN" FTTN installs too), the IP address is assigned by the indie ISP through their own infrastructure. The indie can make its own policies as to how long it holds onto xDSL logs.

ohmer
join:2003-08-06
Quebec, QC

ohmer to dillyhammer

Member

to dillyhammer
said by dillyhammer:

said by MaynardKrebs:

I understand that cable is different than xDSL in that regard.

Hmmm.

How is it different? Do they not keep logs? Or is the upstream keeping logs on people that aren't their customers?

Why does this sound like a can o' worms?

Mike

On the cable, it's Videotron/Rogers that attribute IP address from their DHCP server (this is not ebox equipment). So, even if ebox delete their logs, the upstream provider still have them... I guess they keep log for a very long time...

Rickkins
join:2004-04-05
Mtl, Canada

Rickkins to diskace

Member

to diskace
said by diskace:

As you may know log retention is irrelevant on cable because the dhcp portion is handled by the carrier and not the tpia.

OMG we're all screwed.....

hm
@videotron.ca

hm to diskace

Anon

to diskace
said by diskace:

As you may know log retention is irrelevant

Says the guy with a non-compliant privacy policy on his website, and who chose to ignore questions related to this issue.

ah.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to Rickkins

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to Rickkins
said by Rickkins:

said by diskace:

As you may know log retention is irrelevant on cable because the dhcp portion is handled by the carrier and not the tpia.

OMG we're all screwed.....

Just the people on cable are screwed.

As long as the indie ISP is not keeping xDSL logs for more than 7-14 days, xDSL is preferable for privacy.

hm
@videotron.ca

hm

Anon

said by MaynardKrebs:

Just the people on cable are screwed.

Oh? Did diskace ever answer how long he retains DSL logs for? 7 years? Part of his accounting records that are required to be kept for 7 years maybe?

As far as I know, up until now he has chosen not to answer people.

Let me double check, maybe he did....
»Data Retention (Privacy policy)

hmm, Nope...

Sorry, what were you saying, MaynardKrebs?

diskace
Retired
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join:2002-02-21

diskace to MaynardKrebs

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to MaynardKrebs
Currently we don't have a policy to delete logs at a specific interval.

We delete the logs when the file size is too big and cause database slowdown.

We usually keep logs for billing purpose. Example: credit card charge back and clients who challenge a bill.

For cable i am still waiting for an official answer.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by diskace:

We delete the logs when the file size is too big and cause database slowdown.

We usually keep logs for billing purpose. Example: credit card charge back and clients who challenge a bill.

So, make the disk quota for the log file really small.
How long can VISA chargeback a disputed item? 30 days? 60 days?

ohmer
join:2003-08-06
Quebec, QC

ohmer to diskace

Member

to diskace
You really need ip logs for many months just for billing? You could just keep stats (how much downloaded/uploaded by account id).

dillyhammer
START me up
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join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON

dillyhammer

Premium Member

said by ohmer:

You really need ip logs for many months just for billing? You could just keep stats (how much downloaded/uploaded by account id).

For sure. Stats could be rolled up and attached to accounts daily, and the IP logs deleted accordingly. A simple clause in the Terms Of Service can make that sufficient for billing dispute purposes.

I think the reason why we have such crazy log retention is because people are inherently lazy, paranoid, and never thought it would be an issue a la Voltage Scumbags.

But this lack of forthcoming responses and that $20 fee for BYOM really makes me think, sorry to say.

At least the dude at Start said it straight out, that their logs are kept for a year but they're looking at reducing that because of what was going on.

Mike

diskace
Retired
Premium Member
join:2002-02-21

diskace

Premium Member

said by dillyhammer:

said by ohmer:

You really need ip logs for many months just for billing? You could just keep stats (how much downloaded/uploaded by account id).

But this lack of forthcoming responses and that $20 fee for BYOM really makes me think, sorry to say.

At least the dude at Start said it straight out, that their logs are kept for a year but they're looking at reducing that because of what was going on.

Mike

On a side note, we can rename it 'rebate for buying a modem from us'. It's pretty much the same in the end. The install cost is 69.95$ and 20$ off when you buy a modem from us making it 49.95$. Same price structure for cable.

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy

Premium Member

said by diskace:

said by dillyhammer:

said by ohmer:

You really need ip logs for many months just for billing? You could just keep stats (how much downloaded/uploaded by account id).

But this lack of forthcoming responses and that $20 fee for BYOM really makes me think, sorry to say.

At least the dude at Start said it straight out, that their logs are kept for a year but they're looking at reducing that because of what was going on.

Mike

On a side note, we can rename it 'rebate for buying a modem from us'. It's pretty much the same in the end. The install cost is 69.95$ and 20$ off when you buy a modem from us making it 49.95$. Same price structure for cable.

Hello I'm interested but...my questions were lost it seems in the negativity of some people...

Would I have downtime if I have an existing ADSL2 service that I just want to transfer to you guys?

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to diskace

Premium Member

to diskace
said by diskace:

On a side note, we can rename it 'rebate for buying a modem from us'.

It's pretty much the same in the end.

The install cost is 69.95$ and 20$ off when you buy a modem from us making it 49.95$.

Same price structure for cable.

 
In the other thread, I suggested that you previously called it exactly that at some point in the past, yes ?

If it makes less folks angry, maybe it would be best to say it that way.

It looks like you are already 'Eating' part of the Bell FTTN install fee anyway, unlike some other IISPs.

dillyhammer
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join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON

dillyhammer to nitzguy

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to nitzguy
said by nitzguy:

Hello I'm interested but...my questions were lost it seems in the negativity of some people...

I resemble that remark.

said by nitzguy:

Would I have downtime if I have an existing ADSL2 service that I just want to transfer to you guys?

Why risk it?

Order the new service on another pair, and when you're satisfied, cancel the other service.

Mike
dillyhammer

dillyhammer to diskace

Premium Member

to diskace
said by diskace:

On a side note, we can rename it 'rebate for buying a modem from us'. It's pretty much the same in the end. The install cost is 69.95$ and 20$ off when you buy a modem from us making it 49.95$. Same price structure for cable.

I guess it's just syntax then, but on a side note and quite coincidentally, the prices you quote on your website for the ST516, TG585 and TG784 are all about $20 above retail.



Regardless, the pricing is very good, quite aggressive. I'm betting you're going to see some action, which is what you intended I trust.

Mike

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy to dillyhammer

Premium Member

to dillyhammer
said by dillyhammer:

said by nitzguy:

Hello I'm interested but...my questions were lost it seems in the negativity of some people...

I resemble that remark.

said by nitzguy:

Would I have downtime if I have an existing ADSL2 service that I just want to transfer to you guys?

Why risk it?

Order the new service on another pair, and when you're satisfied, cancel the other service.

Mike

I'm jsut saying, a $69.95 install beats a $95 install . I have the equipment...

Problem is, I'm in an apartment building that was probably built in 1955 and I don't know if there is a second pair running into this apartment....and the whole rigamarole behind getting a second pair in....that's why....

dillyhammer
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join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON

dillyhammer

Premium Member

said by nitzguy:

a $69.95 install beats a $95 install

Yep. Fabulous pricing. Beats the crap out of TSI for sure, and just about anyone else.
said by nitzguy:

Problem is, I'm in an apartment building that was probably built in 1955 and I don't know if there is a second pair running into this apartment....and the whole rigamarole behind getting a second pair in....that's why....

Yep. That'd do it. I do know from word of mouth that EBox is top notch. If they can't migrate you over seamlessly, probably no-one can.

Good luck.

Mike

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere to dillyhammer

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to dillyhammer
said by dillyhammer:

....the pricing [of the eBOX Ontario FTTN DSL service] is very good, quite aggressive.

I'm betting you're going to see some action, which is what you intended, I trust.

 
Just think if eBOX really DOES announce a deal thru Cogeco wires.

Now THAT would shake up things, I reckon !

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy to dillyhammer

Premium Member

to dillyhammer
said by dillyhammer:

said by nitzguy:

a $69.95 install beats a $95 install

Yep. Fabulous pricing. Beats the crap out of TSI for sure, and just about anyone else.
said by nitzguy:

Problem is, I'm in an apartment building that was probably built in 1955 and I don't know if there is a second pair running into this apartment....and the whole rigamarole behind getting a second pair in....that's why....

Yep. That'd do it. I do know from word of mouth that EBox is top notch. If they can't migrate you over seamlessly, probably no-one can.

Good luck.

Mike

Well because right now I'm paying for a wet loop....I thought I might need a landline and I'm one of those lucky ones on TSI Pots service....but it turns out nobody calls me except people looking for the owner of the phone number previously which is a dead lady unfortunately....even the CBC can't get their fact finders straight so its been a hassle since day one...

If I can go dry loop and not pay a charge on top...right now I'm at $82/month taxes in...if I can drop that in 1/2....I'll eat the $69 one time charge to save $40/month and probably just bump up my cell plan with Fido to unlimited and Canada wide....and drop the landline all together...or go with a cheap voip solution as they have Sudbury DIDs....

So...if someone from ebox could let me know what the timelines would have to be, even if I have to have a little downtime I can deal with that....

Davesnothere
Change is NOT Necessarily Progress
Premium Member
join:2009-06-15
Canada

Davesnothere

Premium Member

said by nitzguy:

....If I can go dry loop and not pay a charge on top...right now I'm at $82/month taxes in...if I can drop that in 1/2....I'll eat the $69 one time charge to save $40/month

and probably just bump up my cell plan with Fido to unlimited and Canada wide....and drop the landline all together...or go with a cheap voip solution as they have Sudbury DIDs....

 
Try out the budget VoIP before feeding the dog any extra - It may be all that you need.

Lots of good experienced advice HERE »VOIP Tech Chat

Just decide what you want to do about 911 before cancelling the POTS though.

This new eBOX stuff looks to be a decent deal.

Cheers !

dillyhammer
START me up
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join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON

dillyhammer to nitzguy

Premium Member

to nitzguy
BTW, I meant to mention, you might want to just pop the cover off your main phone jack and see what's there. I wouldn't be surprised if you found a second line in there.

My place in Scarborough, in a complex of 3 x 3 story walk-ups built in 1954, had a second line.

Mike

nitzguy
Premium Member
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON

nitzguy

Premium Member

said by dillyhammer:

BTW, I meant to mention, you might want to just pop the cover off your main phone jack and see what's there. I wouldn't be surprised if you found a second line in there.

My place in Scarborough, in a complex of 3 x 3 story walk-ups built in 1954, had a second line.

Mike

I will have to do so...when I get back from vacation that is.

I literally have 1 phone jack for my apartment...they had an old style jack but it turns out it was a dummy wire going out of it as the POTS splitter tech came and I hadn't plugged in a phone and
noted that the wires were going to nowhere...

So I'll take the top off, I'm just looking for an ease of install, if that means being offline for a few days....I'll manage...I have my cellphone.

@Davesnothere: Thank you for the info . I would be looking at a VOIP solution, either voip.ms or one of the other ones as I know they have Sudbury DIDs and for the cost, like I said, I pay $82-$83/month including tax now...if I can halve that, the install pays for itself in 2 months, and I'm saving about $40/month which even over 10 months is $400....(minus the install fee I'd have to pay)...so definitely looking at my options but I'll look at them more when I'm back next week.

Still waiting on an eBox answer though, hope Mr. Diskace hasn't been shuned away....I don't care about log retention because I don't worry about torrenting . So log all you want, log for 25 years....that's not an issue for me, its just a matter of price...and I've had no downtime in the near year so far (minus hydro one scheduled power outage and that's when I realized I hadn't changed the batteries in my UPS since I got it 10 years ago now so its probably due as it only lasted a few minutes before everything went down)...

Just price concious....so it works for me, if it works for them, its win-win.

dillyhammer
START me up
Premium Member
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON

dillyhammer

Premium Member

said by nitzguy:

I would be looking at a VOIP solution, either voip.ms or one of the other ones as I know they have Sudbury DIDs and for the cost, like I said, I pay $82-$83/month including tax now...if I can halve that, the install pays for itself in 2 months, and I'm saving about $40/month

Like you, I was paying anywhere from $70 - $80 a month for POTS phone service.

I switched to voip.ms.

I pay on average now about $28 a month, with a half dozen DIDs including a toll-free. The money I save is... stupid.

For the most part, voip.ms has been awesome. Feature-rich and cheap. They have had some trouble recently, in their Toronto setup and probably some over-subscription elsewhere. Seems to have calmed down now but if I get any more grief I'll likely move.

Mike
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by dillyhammer:

Seems to have calmed down now but if I get any more grief I'll likely move.

To which service?

dillyhammer
START me up
Premium Member
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON

dillyhammer

Premium Member

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by dillyhammer:

Seems to have calmed down now but if I get any more grief I'll likely move.

To which service?

Not sure. Taking suggestions though.

Mike
Dunlop
join:2011-07-13

Dunlop to Davesnothere

Member

to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

Try out the budget VoIP before feeding the dog any extra - It may be all that you need.

Lots of good experienced advice HERE »VOIP Tech Chat

Just decide what you want to do about 911 before cancelling the POTS though.

This new eBOX stuff looks to be a decent deal.

Cheers !

Can't stress this enough, been using VOIP.ms for a couple of weeks now. I purchased a DID and then forwarded my Videotron phone to it to test out the quality and reliability over time and it has been amazing.

For me it is mostly because my home phone is so seldomly used and I do not want to lose the number.

What about 911? Voip.ms has an option for e911 for $1.50 a month