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johnnn

join:2007-01-25
Ypsilanti, MI

Request Thread: Netflix SuperHD/Open Connect

Preface: I'm writing solely because I like higher bitrate streaming, not because I particularly agree with the strategy of bypassing artificially strangled peering/transit links.

Let's see if we can get Comcast to give us a timetable for OpenConnect implementation...or would delivering better video quality not be something they're willing to do for the benefit of their subscribers who don't pay for their video services?



pflog
Bueller? Bueller?
Premium,MVM
join:2001-09-01
El Dorado Hills, CA
kudos:3

Sounds great, but I wouldn't hold your breath.
--
"I drank what?" -Socrates



bradyr
Columbia College IT
Premium
join:2008-10-27
Sonora, CA
reply to johnnn

I'm all for higher video quality from netflix streaming, but their 720p/5.1 sound streaming looks great through my PS3/xbox 360 on my tv, over comcast.

even if i could get full 1080p/5.1 via netflix streaming, i probably would rather pull 720p and save a little bandwidth for other nonsense.



pflog
Bueller? Bueller?
Premium,MVM
join:2001-09-01
El Dorado Hills, CA
kudos:3

Honestly, I'd rather they make sure all their HD movies and TV have 5.1 audio (when possible). But many movies I see that HAD to have had DD 5.1 tracks or DTS are sent in HD video and stereo audio which always bugs me.
--
"I drank what?" -Socrates



Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3

What irritates me is the Ruku 2 XS supports 1080p and DD 7.1 but not DD 5.1 which makes it useless for people who don't have an HDTV that supports 7.1, leaving the only other option to be Stereo.
The PS3 is supported, but not the Xbox360 so that right there is going to cause a cultural divide.
My biggest concern is content. What content is available that will truly show the full benefits of Super HD? Will there be new content created for this purpose? What about existing content, will it be reprocessed or will it be recoded on the fly or will it just be left alone?
--
I'm always up for a good chat and helping with VoIP testing so my contact info is below.
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Skype: MikeWolf051


data129

join:2007-07-04
Canton, MI
reply to johnnn

Actually i'm not impress with online hd streaming. Nothing like a good blu-ray disc.


mrschultz02

join:2007-09-10
Media, PA

said by data129:

Actually i'm not impress with online hd streaming. Nothing like a good blu-ray disc.

Yeah, can't beat the bit rate and low compression of Blu-Ray.

Vudu 1080 XHD does look better than 720 HD on my TV, if Netflix is doing something similar it might be nice. If Comcast ever agrees to install the hardware on their network.

For 3D my TV can't seem to deal with Vudu XHD even though I've got pleanty of bandwidth, HD 3D works fine. I wonder what devices Netflix is going to get 3D working on? My 3D Blu-Ray player can't do any streaming 3D, only the TV apps can.


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3
reply to johnnn

I do hope that we can actually get the decision makers at Comcast to listen to us and we're not wasting our time.



n0xlf

join:2001-03-28
Castle Rock, CO
kudos:1

1 edit

What kind of bitrate are you guys seeing on Netflix? In Colorado I see around 10Mbps in what appears to be 1080p/DD5.1...

The content is also being served up locally, whether that is OpenConnect or just a CDN of sorts I don't know...I can post an IP/trace if anyone is interested...

Edit: It's not OpenConnect - Just tested it at netflix.com/superhd



Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3

So is there any chance you guys at Comcast will actually do this? I mean I know Comcast and Netflix are supposed to be mortal enemies, but heck if Apple and Microsoft can get together, why not the nations largest cable and internet provider and the worlds largest streaming giant?

Expand your moderator at work


egeek84
Premium
join:2011-07-28
Livermore, CA
reply to johnnn

Re: Request Thread: Netflix SuperHD/Open Connect

+1, please implement this Comcast!



Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3

2 edits
reply to johnnn

»forums.comcast.com/t5/General-Ha···/1534705
came across this on the Comcast forums.

Here is a link for Comcast to go to to get more information »signup.netflix.com/openconnect/application

From the deployment guide FAQ »netflix.hs.llnwd.net/e1/us/layou···2.4a.pdf

(Q.) How much network offload will the appliance help me achieve?

(A.) The number of appliances deployed and the volume of traffic served through that location determine the percentage of total traffic originating from appliances within a certain location.
A single appliance can offload in the range of 70%-90% of Netflix traffic, depending on country catalog. Multiple appliances operating together in a single region can provide even greater levels of traffic offload, approaching 100% for deployments of sufficient scale.

(Q.) What does the appliance cost my organization?

(A.) The appliances (and any necessary replacements) are provided to participating ISPs free of charge when used within the terms of the license agreement.



whfsdude
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Washington, DC
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to johnnn

You actually don't need the cache server to be part of OpenConnect.

Per PeeringDB ( »www.peeringdb.com/private/partic···p?id=457 ):

Netflix streams our content payload via one of three methods:

A) An embedded cache inside of your network, provided you meet certain traffic criteria (generally greater than 5Gbps of traffic)

B) PNI (SFI) at common private peering locations (500Mbps minimum on 1G, 2Gbps minimum on 10G)

C) Public Peering (SFI) via IXs at common public peering locations (no minimum)

Also v6 only uses their OpenConnect CDN. So in theory you could have this if you were using IPv6.

Hitting their OpenConnect CDN over v6.

traceroute6 to 2620:10c:7005:407a::105 (2620:10c:7005:407a::105) from 2001:559:800c:1005:b050:25aa:63c2:b416, 64 hops max, 12 byte packets
 1  2001:559:800c:1005::  0.344 ms  0.262 ms  0.228 ms
 2  2001:559:0:84::1  0.568 ms  0.604 ms  0.620 ms
 3  ae-19-0-ar04.capitolhghts.md.bad.comcast.net  0.796 ms  0.866 ms  0.823 ms
 4  pos-5-3-0-0-cr01.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net  3.842 ms  5.997 ms
    pos-5-6-0-0-cr01.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net  5.051 ms
 5  te-0-6-0-15-pe06.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net  2.848 ms  2.856 ms  2.592 ms
 6  2001:559::50e  3.968 ms  7.177 ms  3.718 ms
 7  ae3-40g.cr1.iad1.us.nlayer.net  6.596 ms  2.379 ms  2.324 ms
 8  xe-10-3-1.cr1.nyc3.us.nlayer.net  7.721 ms  7.839 ms  7.849 ms
 9  ae1-50g.ar1.nyc3.us.nlayer.net  18.203 ms  9.989 ms  11.977 ms
10  as2906.ae10.ar1.nyc3.us.nlayer.net  7.939 ms  7.905 ms  7.830 ms
11  ipv6_1.lagg0.c030.nyc001.ix.nflxvideo.net  7.976 ms  8.106 ms  7.962 m
 


whfsdude
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Washington, DC
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to johnnn

Also > »techblog.netflix.com/2012/07/ena···pv6.html

If you've ever used IPvFoo (»code.google.com/p/ipvfoo/) you can see that v6 is only delivered via the OpenConnect network and not via any of their CDNs.



espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP

1 recommendation

reply to Mike Wolf

said by Mike Wolf:

A single appliance can offload in the range of 70%-90% of Netflix traffic, depending on country catalog.

In a lot of ways that's like saying "We're going to dramatically reduce the cost of operating a car by giving you oil changes for free!"

Just as the prime consumable material for an automobile is gasoline, the most expensive part of broadband service is capacity augmentation of the last mile.

So all this solution does is take pressure off major interconnection points where bandwidth continues to fall in price thanks to the growing availability of 40/100Gbps interfaces. Meanwhile it increases the load on the last mile infrastructure where equipment costs are declining at 1/100th the rate because of the high degree of specialization in the infrastructure.

Netflix makes out like a bandit though -- with the caching devices in place on the ISP networks, their transit costs can drop substantially.


Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
kudos:1
reply to Mike Wolf

MS and Apple are only "together" to try to get rid of the competition. Other than that, they aren't together.



Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3

I was referring to the ability to run iTunes which his an Apple product on Windows, and the ability to run Microsoft Office on Mac



Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3
reply to espaeth

Dunno about that, but it sounds like your against this? I was just quoting what the .pdf said.



espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP

said by Mike Wolf:

Dunno about that, but it sounds like your against this?

I just don't understand why any broadband provider would sign up for this.

Like I said, it's an awesome deal for Netflix.


Mike Wolf

join:2009-05-24
Beachwood, NJ
kudos:3

Good faith effort? Good public relations to current and prospective new customers? I'm not sure as the technologies are above my level of training but I really do hope Comcast gets on board quickly so we can all start seeing Super HD streaming.



whfsdude
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Washington, DC
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to espaeth

said by espaeth:

I just don't understand why any broadband provider would sign up for this.

Well Netflix has an open peering policy (you don't have to host a cache) and they're located at most of the North American IXs.

It could just be equally argued that some of the large ISPs (w/ closed peering policies) are using their eyeballs to double dip and charge significant cash for peering.

johnnn

join:2007-01-25
Ypsilanti, MI

*sigh* I'm pulling Netflix from Level3 tonight and can't maintain an HD stream...but no problem getting 36Mbps down to the nearest Comcast server =/


devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Cambridge, MA

1 edit
reply to johnnn

Help me understand something

ISP blocking Netflix SuperHD = Net-Neutrality Violation
Netflix blocking SuperHD from ISP customers = ???

Netflix can, and has, delivered 1080p for a while now and suddenly they won't offer it to their customers unless ISPs give them colo and routers? Why are they entitled to special treatment over competitors? They tried this before with DVDs »consumerist.com/2013/01/11/court···he-usps/

Will YouTube, Amazon and others follow suit and start blocking unless they get to move out of rackspace and equinix requiring ISPs to provide the free hosting and free 10G dedicated pipes?


andyross
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-04
Schaumburg, IL

They are not necessarily blocking 1080p. The current max is still 1080p in most cases, but more compressed than what they will allow over Open Connect.


devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Cambridge, MA

said by andyross:

They are not necessarily blocking 1080p. The current max is still 1080p in most cases, but more compressed than what they will allow over Open Connect.

They are blocking. Other's seem to be able to deliver HD+ video services. Why should OpenConnect get special treatment?


JimThePCGuy
Formerly known as schja01.
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-27
Morton Grove, IL
reply to johnnn

Netflix looks great to me on my 37" Sharp LCD.



tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to devnuller

said by devnuller:

They are blocking. Other's seem to be able to deliver HD+ video services. Why should OpenConnect get special treatment?

ISP network/equipment capability.
It's not blocking if something doesn't work/can't be used due to low bandwidth i.e. don't expect HD streams over dialup, even if you were willing to wait they wouldn't serve what 99.9999% would agree to be an unsatisfactory user experience.

I understand your point, but it is legit for them to protect their reputation, and not serve any connection which might make their service look bad.

devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Cambridge, MA

It is blocking when it is done for business/leverage reasons and not technical reasons.

Technically this will work with any CDN out there to most broadband users.



whfsdude
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Washington, DC
Reviews:
·Comcast

said by devnuller:

It is blocking when it is done for business/leverage reasons and not technical reasons.

Technically this will work with any CDN out there to most broadband users.

Difference is Netflix has an open-peering policy. Comcast does not. If you peer through any public IX you get Open Connect.

What Netflix didn't say is that their v6 network is all via Open Connect and includes paid v6 transit.