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34764170 (banned)
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

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Re: Netflix Super HD/Open Connect

said by Guspaz:

Windows 7 can only use the browser app, which is Microsoft VC-1, while the Windows 8 Metro app presumably uses h.264 (the same encoded files as all their STB streams).

Wonder how much they're getting from M$ to promote Win 8 like this.

BACONATOR26
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join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON

BACONATOR26

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said by 34764170:

said by Guspaz:

Windows 7 can only use the browser app, which is Microsoft VC-1, while the Windows 8 Metro app presumably uses h.264 (the same encoded files as all their STB streams).

Wonder how much they're getting from M$ to promote Win 8 like this.

Given they launched the platform on Silverlight, I'm guessing quite a bit. But I have to hand it to Netflix, their streaming platform is the best I've seen.
Eug
join:2007-04-14
Canada

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said by nettles :

Having recently bought a blu-ray player for Netflix, I can say it's a good option but not the best. I bought the blu-ray player in particular (Sony S590) because it has a web browser which most don't. However it proved to be useless because the browser did not support flash so no streaming. It does however include youtube (high quality not supported), Daily Motion, and a few other apps including NHL Gamecentre (don't give the NHL your $, spend it on hockeystreams).

Just to be clear, that statement about the browser doesn't have any relevance for Netflix, since Netflix uses a dedicated app on Blu-ray players.

If you don't need blu-ray/DVD playability then my best recommendation is to get a device that supports XBMC which can include certain streaming players and an HTPC which is a bit more expensive but worth it. The reason is that XBMC can support a Netflix plug-in but can ALSO support a regular Hulu plugin called Real Hulu which lets you get Hulu TV shows that aren't geoblocked.

I'm just running an Apple TV which includes both a Netflix app, and also with the jailbroken version, FireCore Media Player which plays basically everything. I haven't bothered installing XBMC but maybe I'll give it a shot if I can play non-geoblocked Hulu and other stuff.

You don't even need this plug-in because there's a 1channel.ch and icefilms plug-in on XBMC along with many TV channels and foreign channel streams. Best way to cut the cable imo is to get an OTA antenna and find a way to connect XBMC. This is getting even easier to do now that Android supports XBMC though it's in beta and connecting android to your TV via something like android on a stick is less than $50. The technology for XBMC and Android on a TV is still developing so that's why I'd recommend getting an HTPC.

I gave up on OTA because it would be unreliable in bad weather and at the time there didn't exist any viable standalone (non-HTPC) PVR solution. I don't know if that's still true, but haven't seen anything yet in a standalone box that would solve this problem.
34764170 (banned)
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

34764170 (banned) to BACONATOR26

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said by BACONATOR26:

said by 34764170:

said by Guspaz:

Windows 7 can only use the browser app, which is Microsoft VC-1, while the Windows 8 Metro app presumably uses h.264 (the same encoded files as all their STB streams).

Wonder how much they're getting from M$ to promote Win 8 like this.

Given they launched the platform on Silverlight, I'm guessing quite a bit. But I have to hand it to Netflix, their streaming platform is the best I've seen.

Silverlight supports H.264. So there is something else going on here. The fact that they're only supporting an OS that essentially no one has as opposed to what everyone else has is pretty ridiculous. I don't use Windows so I personally couldn't care less but this is a pretty big FU to their Windows using customers.

Guspaz
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said by BACONATOR26:

Given they launched the platform on Silverlight, I'm guessing quite a bit. But I have to hand it to Netflix, their streaming platform is the best I've seen.

Or maybe you guys are paranoid, and it doesn't make sense for Netflix to support higher bitrates on the Silverlight client?

Think about it. Netflix has three encoding profiles, mobile, STB, and PC. The PC is a small minority among platforms; more Netflix users stream on the PS3 alone than the PC, and that's not taking into account all other mobile and STB devices.

SuperHD introduced three new bitrates. That means that they have to re-encode every single piece of HD content in their library to those three new bitrates (which takes time and money) and store the resulting extra tens (hundreds?) of terabytes of data. And they store their data on S3, where 100TB of content costs $78,000 a year just to store. The amount of SuperHD content on Netflix has been rapidly increasing as they transcode content, but what would YOU prioritize to come first? The STB h.264 profile that covers the vast majority of Netflix usage, or the PC VC-1 profile that covers a much smaller portion of users?

Face it, even if Netflix wanted to do SuperHD for the PC browser client, and even if they thought the extra cost for transcoding and storing was justified, they couldn't even do it until they finished transcoding everything for the STB profile.

Somehow, prudent business practice becomes an evil agenda where they've been bought off by Microsoft...
34764170 (banned)
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

34764170 (banned)

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said by Guspaz:

said by BACONATOR26:

Given they launched the platform on Silverlight, I'm guessing quite a bit. But I have to hand it to Netflix, their streaming platform is the best I've seen.

Or maybe you guys are paranoid, and it doesn't make sense for Netflix to support higher bitrates on the Silverlight client?

Think about it. Netflix has three encoding profiles, mobile, STB, and PC. The PC is a small minority among platforms; more Netflix users stream on the PS3 alone than the PC, and that's not taking into account all other mobile and STB devices.

SuperHD introduced three new bitrates. That means that they have to re-encode every single piece of HD content in their library to those three new bitrates (which takes time and money) and store the resulting extra tens (hundreds?) of terabytes of data. And they store their data on S3, where 100TB of content costs $78,000 a year just to store. The amount of SuperHD content on Netflix has been rapidly increasing as they transcode content, but what would YOU prioritize to come first? The STB h.264 profile that covers the vast majority of Netflix usage, or the PC VC-1 profile that covers a much smaller portion of users?

Face it, even if Netflix wanted to do SuperHD for the PC browser client, and even if they thought the extra cost for transcoding and storing was justified, they couldn't even do it until they finished transcoding everything for the STB profile.

Somehow, prudent business practice becomes an evil agenda where they've been bought off by Microsoft...

Ya, high bitrate content plays fine locally and for Blu-ray's but its magically an issue for the Netflix player. uh huh.

The STB encodings of the H.264 content could playback just fine on PCs.

It doesn't make sense to support a user base of something like 5% vs the other 95% of the user base for Windows.
vikingisson
join:2010-01-22
Mississauga, ON

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I don't know how many of the "facts" are true or just speculation but in my house 100% of the Netflix users are on a pc browser. It won't be the first time a company has abandoned a platform and lost me as a client.

Guspaz
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I'm operating under the assumption that the browser player will eventually get SuperHD bitrates... That there isn't some giant plot against Windows 7 users, and that there is a legitimate reason why they haven't done so already.

It's in Netflix' best interest to give their customers the best possible experience they can. They face strong competition.
34764170 (banned)
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34764170 (banned)

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said by Guspaz:

I'm operating under the assumption that the browser player will eventually get SuperHD bitrates... That there isn't some giant plot against Windows 7 users, and that there is a legitimate reason why they haven't done so already.

It's in Netflix' best interest to give their customers the best possible experience they can.

I would hope so but either way it still looks bad on Netflix.
said by Guspaz:

They face strong competition.

If they do I haven't seen it.

Guspaz
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Hulu Plus? Amazon Prime? iTunes? VOD services? Traditional television services? Rental stores? PVRs? IPTV startups? Aereo? Piracy? RedBox Instant? HBO's upcoming VOD service?
34764170 (banned)
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

34764170 (banned)

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said by Guspaz:

Hulu Plus? Amazon Prime? iTunes? VOD services? Traditional television services? Rental stores? PVRs? IPTV startups? Aereo? Piracy? RedBox Instant? HBO's upcoming VOD service?

Depends on perspective..

A lot of these services lack hardware support which is where Netflix has done a great job. They might be fine if you're Ok sitting in front of a PC.

Some of these are limited in regional availability or limited by the ISP such as IPTV (.e.g. Zazeen).

VOD requires cable/IPTV.

Rental stores stores are not streaming, don't count.

So almost all of these are not competition for me.

I see you included piracy. I consider legal services as competition. Of course you could pirate practically everything.

Provide a service like Netflix with the good hardware support and widespread availability and I would consider that competition. RedBox Instant has the possibility of being that second option but they'll need to work on the hardware support, lot more content and of course actually being available here.
vikingisson
join:2010-01-22
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I'll go along with all the numbers speculation and reasoning behind supporting or not supporting various platforms. I don't think the Flix has nearly the problem people think they do of being available on a software app vs one black box or another. It's all moot if they would simply allow proper apps on the multitude of media players such as XBMC, all the variants of XBMC, and all things technically capable. It costs them nothing to do it.

The classic examples are Boxee and SageTV. Both applications are dead after finally admitting that things such as Netflix will never be allowed. The PC and now even the smart phone is more capable than a black box for things like Netflix. It isn't a technical issue and it's not about a perceived small market segment.

Guspaz
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Am I missing something? Boxee supports Netflix, and SageTV doesn't exist anymore...
vikingisson
join:2010-01-22
Mississauga, ON

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said by Guspaz:

Am I missing something? Boxee supports Netflix, and SageTV doesn't exist anymore...

Boxee the software app that runs Boxee *Box* doesn't exist anymore. That's an entire saga in itself.
34764170 (banned)
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34764170 (banned)

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said by vikingisson:

Boxee the software app that runs Boxee *Box* doesn't exist anymore. That's an entire saga in itself.

No, it's Boxee the software that runs on Windows. It was out of their hands anyway.
34764170

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said by vikingisson:

I'll go along with all the numbers speculation and reasoning behind supporting or not supporting various platforms. I don't think the Flix has nearly the problem people think they do of being available on a software app vs one black box or another. It's all moot if they would simply allow proper apps on the multitude of media players such as XBMC, all the variants of XBMC, and all things technically capable. It costs them nothing to do it.

The classic examples are Boxee and SageTV. Both applications are dead after finally admitting that things such as Netflix will never be allowed. The PC and now even the smart phone is more capable than a black box for things like Netflix. It isn't a technical issue and it's not about a perceived small market segment.

It costs them developer time to develop the apps. That is not nothing. Go find some developers that will work for Netflix with no salary and see how that goes.

I don't care about a smart phone for Netflix and I don't want to sit in front of my PC to use Netflix. I don't use a smart phone as a media player. Then I would need two phones.

nettles
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nettles

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So there's no way to access SuperHD with US Netflix correct? Just the Canadian one?

Also what annoys me is that you can't actually tell if the SuperHD video in Canadian netflix which you're watching is actually in SuperHD/1080p or whatever like you could with a TV signal.

If the internet speed for example slows down or struggles then I know that netflix automatically switches the feed to a lower quality one and it's hard to tell.

Anyways it'll take some time and I shouldn't complain too much. The fact that we have 1080p via streaming is pretty amazing even if it's not working the way we want now.
vikingisson
join:2010-01-22
Mississauga, ON

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said by 34764170:

It costs them developer time to develop the apps. That is not nothing. Go find some developers that will work for Netflix with no salary and see how that goes.

I don't care about a smart phone for Netflix and I don't want to sit in front of my PC to use Netflix. I don't use a smart phone as a media player. Then I would need two phones.

So Netflix is writing the dozens of apps on dozens of platforms now? I don't think so. They give out the spec and API and most importantly the blessing to actually work.

They do not and never will allow the same thing on a software media centre. Technically it is the same thing as every other black box where it does work except perhaps even easier.

Exactly what is the difference between you watching content from your PS3 or whatever box and me watching on my TV that happens to come from a PC? I've been doing it much longer than Boxee Box, XBOX, Roku, Blu Ray players, etc. it's the same thing, my remote control works just like yours and except for most of the bigger commercial providers such as Netflix I'm doing the same thing.

I agree that media consumption on a smart phone is more limited when it comes to video. But my pc as a media centre works just fine except that pay services won't play (actually they do work but I have to switch to a browser for example, pretty easy). The "developers" write hundreds of "apps" to access everything else, they'd be happy to write one to access Netflix if Netflix would let them.
vikingisson

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said by nettles :

So there's no way to access SuperHD with US Netflix correct? Just the Canadian one?

Also what annoys me is that you can't actually tell if the SuperHD video in Canadian netflix which you're watching is actually in SuperHD/1080p or whatever like you could with a TV signal.

If the internet speed for example slows down or struggles then I know that netflix automatically switches the feed to a lower quality one and it's hard to tell.

Anyways it'll take some time and I shouldn't complain too much. The fact that we have 1080p via streaming is pretty amazing even if it's not working the way we want now.

That's a different subject but yes you can watch Netflix in other markets. If SuperHD is available on your chosen box and in the market you want then sure, it can be done. Just not officially. Test it with a switchable VPN/proxy, it just isn't a topic for this thread.

Guspaz
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said by nettles :

Also what annoys me is that you can't actually tell if the SuperHD video in Canadian netflix which you're watching is actually in SuperHD/1080p or whatever like you could with a TV signal.

You can. On the Windows 8 client, hit CTRL-ALT-SHIFT-S and check the bitrate you're streaming at (3000 was the old "HD", anything above that is the new bitrates, 5800 being the highest). On the PS3, hit the Info button on your remote (if you're using a PS3 remote), or one of the other buttons on the PS3 controller if you use that. That doesn't show you the bitrate, but it does say what quality it's streaming in a text description like "Medium/SD" or "High/SD". Many other Netflix streaming devices also let you see the current quality level.
34764170 (banned)
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said by vikingisson:

So Netflix is writing the dozens of apps on dozens of platforms now? I don't think so. They give out the spec and API and most importantly the blessing to actually work.

Every system/device using Netflix uses a player developed by Netflix.

I have no interest in using a media centre PC for media consumption. They have a whole bunch of issues I have no interest in dealing with.

There is no way Netflix will ever allow 3rd party player development, it makes absolutely no sense at all and they would not be allowed to by the content producers providing them the content.
vikingisson
join:2010-01-22
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Well Brad you might not be interested in a media PC but plenty of us are. Functionally it is the same as a black box. What I'm not interested in buying is a black box. No interest in playing games so a game console makes no sense for me. No interest in blu ray either. Or a smart tv. I haven't met a black box that I like or does things better than what I already have. Except for Netflix. I could get a box but then give up most of what I already do, I'd rather give up Netflix.

They could write an app if they wanted, they create apps for all sorts of cheap crappy blue ray players that surely have a smaller market share than PCs. Or as I think they license access like so many other apps.

ekster
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Quick question about Windows 7 vs Windows 8 for Netflix.

if I'm reading this right, Win8 uses an app that supports h.264? So does that mean that the regular HD will also use significantly less bandwidth vs Win7 on my HPTC? Or is it just theory so far and the compression is the same on both systems?

I might actually consider getting Win8 if it really uses h.264.

Guspaz
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They seem to use the same bitrates regardless of if it's VC-1 or h.264 (either that or the silverlight client actually using h.264).

Quality-wise, there's not that much difference between VC-1 and h.264, and a lot depends on the encoder.

addp009
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I started a Neflix.ca trial seeing that Teksavvy support "SuperHD". However, using the Windows 8 app, it seems like many movies are limited to 1750kbps and it looks worst than youtube videos. (Tried with Transformers and Ghost Protocol.)

I did see some TV shows with 5800kbps but the never selected those bit rate. It seems to top out at 3800kbps.

Anyone else experiencing the same?

Guspaz
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1750 is the highest standard-def bitrate. It either means the show you're watching isn't available in HD at all (let alone SuperHD), or in the case of movies like Ghost Protocol, are only available in HD on a TV-based device.

You might think the Windows 8 client would count as a TV-based device, but it doesn't support a protected content pipeline. As in, if you hit the printscreen button while running the Windows 8 netflix client, it will take a picture of what you're watching, so somebody could use a screen recorder to pirate a movie. Nobody would ever want to do something so stupid when there are far higher quality sources to rip like blurays and itunes webrips, but hollywood cares about such things.

If you're watching something and Netflix doesn't want to go all the way to 5800, it could be because your connection isn't fast enough, or there's congestion, but you can also force it on the PC-based clients. Click the checbox for manual control, the radio button next to 5800 Kbps, and then click apply. For the rest of that session on that title it will only use that bitrate.

xxgg
join:2004-01-15

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Well... if you are going to upgrade to Windows 8,

Do it before Upgrade promo is over. End of the month.

»www.microsoftstore.com/s ··· Wz3miQ6Q

addp009
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said by Guspaz:

1750 is the highest standard-def bitrate. It either means the show you're watching isn't available in HD at all (let alone SuperHD), or in the case of movies like Ghost Protocol, are only available in HD on a TV-based device.

You might think the Windows 8 client would count as a TV-based device, but it doesn't support a protected content pipeline. As in, if you hit the printscreen button while running the Windows 8 netflix client, it will take a picture of what you're watching, so somebody could use a screen recorder to pirate a movie. Nobody would ever want to do something so stupid when there are far higher quality sources to rip like blurays and itunes webrips, but hollywood cares about such things.

Wow. What BS! Windows Vista/7/8 *has* protected pipeline. The app just needs to use Windows Media Foundation and Protected Media Path with a HDCP monitor. This sucks...

I guess I'll judge from the selection, and then figure out if I want a Netflix enabled set-top box later.

Guspaz
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"Available in HD on your TV" is one of the main reasons why my 4x2 matrix switch connects to both my home theatre projector *and* my computer monitor :P

In effect, any of my input devices (currently PC, PS3, 360, cable box) can go to any output (projector, LCD monitor). Still, I miss the inability to alt-tab when I do that; switching monitor inputs is much slower than an ALT-TAB would have.

I kind of wish the U2711 had discrete input source buttons, but then I guess the whole monitor would be covered in buttons (it's got something like 7 inputs, including two DVI for some reason)
34764170 (banned)
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said by vikingisson:

Well Brad you might not be interested in a media PC but plenty of us are. Functionally it is the same as a black box. What I'm not interested in buying is a black box. No interest in playing games so a game console makes no sense for me. No interest in blu ray either. Or a smart tv. I haven't met a black box that I like or does things better than what I already have. Except for Netflix. I could get a box but then give up most of what I already do, I'd rather give up Netflix.

They could write an app if they wanted, they create apps for all sorts of cheap crappy blue ray players that surely have a smaller market share than PCs. Or as I think they license access like so many other apps.

But "plenty of you" are a tiny percentage of the market. Even Windows users over all are probably the smallest percentage of viewers of Netflix compared to all the other devices used to access Netflix.

Anyway, you can do whatever you want. But you still lose. Find me an HTPC that is less than $200, doesn't involve Windows, is as small, quiet and low on power requirements as a media player/Blu-ray player. Then I'll consider even using it at all.