 GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:20 | reply to El Quintron
Re: Netflix Super HD/Open Connect Actually, I suspect that PC users are fairly large as an individual platform, since Netflix made a big deal of the PS3 being bigger than the PC when the PS3 was announced as the single most popular Netflix platform.
But when broken down into classes (mobile, STB, PC), I would suspect that the PC is a small minority due to the sheer number of individual platforms in the STB class (into which I include things like smart TVs).
In terms of an HTPC that is less than $200, a first gen AppleTV might technically qualify, since they used an x86 processor and you could load Linux (including XBMC) on them. Of course, they don't play blurays.
A sub-$200 HTPC is probably still possible with general components, but you'd have to rely heavily on an iGPU... Darn it, you've got me curious now, to see if such a system is possible :P
You'll never get the power usage down that low for that price. It's not that matching a bluray player's power usage isn't possible (word is IvyBridge goes down to 10w, and that Haswell will hit 7w, while bluray players tend to be 15-25w), but you won't get it for under $200.
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Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
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| I won't reply in detail or to anyone in particular, there's just more here than I give a crap about. My HTPC cost more than $200 to be sure but I've had it for years and years. How many black boxes have people bought in that time? I have tuners and can record uncompressed HD, your pissy black box can't do that. It does a lot more and I can change it, upgrade it, whatever I want plus it serves the whole house and anywhere I am remotely. It can dance circles around every proprietary box out there and is still far superior as a PVR. But that's me.
I won't argue how big the PC market is because I don't know and neither does anyone here. What does that matter? We're big enough and bigger than any single off brand piece of crap blu ray player. The app is simple, their issue is not about numbers or coding.
As for a cheapo box that isn't locked under a brand name, two words, Raspberry Pi. It isn't what I use but I tested one running XBMC. At least as good as a Boxee Box ('cept for no easy Netflix). $35 plus 30 minutes of my time to set it up one time.
C'est la vie, I'll just save my $8/mth. |
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GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:20 | reply to El Quintron
XBMC/Pi has some crucial flaws when it comes to audio decoding. Even though they've written a hardware accelerated DTS decoder, DTS won't give them the time of day when they try to buy a license. Doesn't matter if you're bitstreaming, though.
Also, the Pi (or XBMC on any platform, really) won't play blurays, since there's no commercial bluray software for ARM, and none of the opensource solutions even support java menus (which most bluray discs use).
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Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
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| I don't know what you use but I'm sure it lacks something I'd want.
I don't care about blu rays, I don't have a player and will skip getting one. 1080 is 1080 with or without blu ray. I've got plenty of HD content without ever buying a player or disc. If I used a Pi as a full time player I'd buy the $2 codec which then covers the content it doesn't currently handle but most of what I have is playable just fine.
I said that I don't use the Pi as my main player but if I trimmed down to the basics I'd use it vs a Boxee Box. It's that good.
I still prefer my HTPC. It does all server duties for the house plus all the media I'd ever want. the only thing I could add is pay content but without cable tv or other over priced crap I'm fine without that. $8 for Netflix seemed like a good deal but if I don't see more HD content I'll drop it. The real saving grace is watching Netflix from any of their markets which greatly increases the available content. |
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GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:20
1 edit | reply to El Quintron
I didn't quite manage. Here's what I came up with:
Small form factor approach:
Complete system, no optical: $211
Complete system, external DVD: $236
Complete system, external bluray: $279
Regular sized case approach:
Complete system, no optical: $151
Complete system, bluray drive: $177
All of that is Atom (because it's the cheapest) and SSD (because surprisingly a 32GB SSD is cheaper than a regular hard disk of ANY capacity). Relies on hardware decoding using iGPU. Power usage should be not much different than a bluray player, but the regular sized case approach is much larger.
Curious to see the cheapest you could do this with a current-gen (sandy bridge or ivy bridge, since they have decent iGPUs) non-atom CPU, I came up with a complete Sandy Bridge system, about the same size as my videotron cable box, for $242 with bluray drive, $216 without.
Here were the specs of the various parts I looked at on newegg:
$155 Atom case/psu/mobo/cpu
$10 2GB DDR3-1066
$46 32GB SSD
$25 external DVD reader or $68 external bluray reader
$60 atom mobo/cpu
$35 case/psu
$10 2GB DDR3-1066
$46 32GB SSD
$26 bluray reader
$120 STB-sized LGA1155 case/mobo
$40 Celeron G465 (dual core Sandy Bridge with iGPU)
$10 2GB DDR3-1066
$46 32GB SSD
$26 bluray reader
$120 STB-sized LGA1155 case/mobo
$40 Celeron G465 (dual core Sandy Bridge with iGPU)
$10 2GB DDR3-1066
$46 32GB SSD
$26 bluray reader
EDIT: I would never actually buy such a system. If I wanted to build an HTPC, I would do it right. If I wanted it small, I'd buy an Intel NUC and not bother with bluray because I have my PS3 for that. If I wanted a more normal sized system, I'd buy a higher-end STB-sized case, and an i7-3770T (the only 45w quad-core Intel CPU with HD4000 iGPU) and give it 8GB of RAM and a modern Intel SSD of 80GB or more (like the 120GB 330). This would cost a whole lot more, but would be much more capable.
The Intel NUC has me sorely tempted for HTPC use, but with the overheating issues of the first-gen NUC, I'll wait for the second-gen models before considering them again.
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Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
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| You forgot the remote control.
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brad
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON | reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:But when broken down into classes (mobile, STB, PC), I would suspect that the PC is a small minority due to the sheer number of individual platforms in the STB class (into which I include things like smart TVs).
This is what I was talking about.
said by Guspaz:In terms of an HTPC that is less than $200, a first gen AppleTV might technically qualify, since they used an x86 processor and you could load Linux (including XBMC) on them. Of course, they don't play blurays.
I don't want an Apple TV especially first gen. I don't care about Blu-rays'. I don't want physical media. Then there is the issue of no Netflix so it's all for nothing.
said by Guspaz:A sub-$200 HTPC is probably still possible with general components, but you'd have to rely heavily on an iGPU... Darn it, you've got me curious now, to see if such a system is possible :P
Might be able to find a system with a decent ATI/AMD GPU.. but definitely not with crappy Intel GPUs.
said by Guspaz:You'll never get the power usage down that low for that price. It's not that matching a bluray player's power usage isn't possible (word is IvyBridge goes down to 10w, and that Haswell will hit 7w, while bluray players tend to be 15-25w), but you won't get it for under $200.
This is an important feature for me. |
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brad
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON | reply to El Quintron
The RPi I won't consider. I'd consider something based on a SoC with a more decent CPU/GPU combo and which is ARMv7 based such as Cortex A9/A15 (Tegra 3/4, Exynos, OMAP 4/5), Snapdragon but it also has to be a fully finished product hardware wise and not a bare board like these development/prototype boards. |
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Reviews:
 ·voip.ms
·link2voip
| reply to vikingisson
I have altogether too many HTPC/STB options, and none of them what I would consider ideal.
HTPC: Zotac IONITX (Atom 330 + Nvidia GPU), XBMCbuntu Frodo. Great for streaming off the NAS, but terrible Youtube performance and no Netflix. Another annoyance is that only AC3 and stereo work over HDMI, for reasons I have not yet been able to identify. Power consumption is mediocre at ~32W.
Roku 2 XD: 1080p/5.1 output. Plays Netflix and a bunch of other channels, USB support, but no good option to stream from the LAN. I tried a couple channels that claim to stream from a local web server, but these were buggy and non-free. I'm not interested in something that requires dlna. For some reason Netflix SuperHD options don't show up, despite this being listed as a supported device.
Samsung smart tv: Decent picture. Netflix works in HD/5.1, but no SuperHD, and the interface is terribly slow. No LAN play without dlna, and limited to 30 Mbps.
Samsung smart receiver: Same features and weaknesses as the smart tv, but amazingly no 5.1 option in Netflix.
Windows 8 pc: SuperHD/5.1. This is actually a very functional option for Netflix and LAN play, but it'll be a cold day on Venus before I drop $ on Windows for an HTPC. The only reason I have it on my desktop is because of a work-subsidized home license. I suppose I could make the HTPC my work-at-home pc :P Not sure how Win8 would run on the old Zotac.
So in summary, there are lots of options out there for Netflix and similar streaming media solutions, but I have yet to see one that is ideal. Something like the PS3 or a beefier HTPC might do everything I want, but I'm not at the point that I want to lay out that kind of money, nor would I want a player under the tv burning up 70 watts or more
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 c2rothPremium
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON
kudos:2
 ·TekSavvy Cable
| reply to El Quintron
Build a proper HTPC and don't look back. Messing about with all these streamers is ridiculous as you're fussing around with them ad nauseam because not everything works 100%.
Go here and you'll find a great community of wise resources for getting your HTPC done right: »forum.xbmc.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=112
I am of course biased to a Windows based HTPC and have built many for friends/family. Here is mine: »forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=114724 |
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brad
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON | reply to El Quintron
That thing is way too big. So I can build an HTPC and still have no Netflix. Not useful. |
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GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:20 | reply to brad
said by brad:said by Guspaz:A sub-$200 HTPC is probably still possible with general components, but you'd have to rely heavily on an iGPU... Darn it, you've got me curious now, to see if such a system is possible :P
Might be able to find a system with a decent ATI/AMD GPU.. but definitely not with crappy Intel GPUs. Unlikely. AMD's cheapest discrete CPUs cost more than Intel's cheapest discrete CPUs; the Sandy Bridge based G465 is a few dollars less than the cheapest AMD CPU on NewEgg. That cheapest AMD CPU uses almost double the power, and AMD's integrated GPUs are no better than Intel's these days. In fact, AMD's hardware accelerated video support is worse. If you want to compare the Atom to the Zacate (AMD Fusion) chips, then neither is particularly well suited to HTPC use, since hardware decode in either is iffy. If I had to choose, Zacate would come out ahead, but it uses way more power than an Atom...
said by brad:said by Guspaz:You'll never get the power usage down that low for that price. It's not that matching a bluray player's power usage isn't possible (word is IvyBridge goes down to 10w, and that Haswell will hit 7w, while bluray players tend to be 15-25w), but you won't get it for under $200.
This is an important feature for me. Why, if I may ask? I use my PS3 for such things, even though it uses 70w...
When presenting stuff "seriously" (normally when I have company), I prefer the PS3 because I know it's going to correctly handle the framerates going to the projector. No PC GPU can do 23.976 Hz output perfectly. Even when they can do it right for one display, they're not necessarily going to be able to do it right on a different display. But with a PS3 or other "hardware" player, they just get the framerates right in every circumstance, no having to worry about vsync, no having to mess with custom refreshrates, it just works.
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Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
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| said by Guspaz:Unlikely. AMD's cheapest discrete CPUs cost more than Intel's cheapest discrete CPUs; the Sandy Bridge based G465 is a few dollars less than the cheapest AMD CPU on NewEgg. That cheapest AMD CPU uses almost double the power, and AMD's integrated GPUs are no better than Intel's these days. In fact, AMD's hardware
The G465 and G450 are HD2000 parts, the comparable AMD CPU on that list is a Llano part which has a significantly more powerful GPU.
As well, newer Trinity processors have significantly better GPUs than comparable Intel processors, in fact you can game on a Trinity processor much more effectively than on Intel, even though the Intel processor is much stronger on the CPU side.
Paul |
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brad
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
1 edit | reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz:Why, if I may ask? I use my PS3 for such things, even though it uses 70w...
Why do I not want a device that sucks back that much power for what little it is doing? I don't want a PS3 or an HTPC. I have a media player that plays everything I can throw at it + Netflix which the HTPC would be missing and it takes 11w when playing content. I don't play games so the PS3 is just sucking back power and is a poorer media player for my use. |
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 TOPDAWGPremium
join:2005-04-27
Midland, ON
kudos:3 | reply to Guspaz
boy I'd love to see your house and all the tech stuff you got in there. |
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GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:20 | said by TOPDAWG:boy I'd love to see your house and all the tech stuff you got in there.
In where? My apartment? Well, I do tend to have a higher gadget count than most other people, but there's not much that's particularly special. My file server is nice, 15x3.5" hotswap bays. And it's a bit ludicrous for a 366 sqft apartment to have a home theatre projector with an 80" screen, especially when that part of the apartment is only 10 feet wide (thankfully the projector has a decently short throw distance).
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Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
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Reviews:
 ·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Cable
·Primus Telecommu..
| reply to brad
Re: WD TV said by brad:said by kragop:I've used WD TV and didn't like it too much.
After having both Boxee Box / WD TV and some other setups the WD firmware is completely god awful. So buggy it is pathetic. It is almost criminal that WD sells these devices with how bad they are. I own a WD TV. I agree with these comments. WD TV would stop responding to the remote control frequently. Many times, I had to hit the "home" button to get out of the "service" that stops working. When "home" did not work, I had to get up and pull the power plug (WD TV does not have a power switch). |
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| My coworker has a WD box and it 'loses' the samba share from time to time. He has to power cycle it to get the share back.
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GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:20 | reply to brad
Re: Netflix Super HD/Open Connect said by brad:Why do I not want a device that sucks back that much power for what little it is doing? I don't want a PS3 or an HTPC. I have a media player that plays everything I can throw at it + Netflix which the HTPC would be missing and it takes 11w when playing content. I don't play games so the PS3 is just sucking back power and is a poorer media player for my use. Let me know when you find a media player that can handle advanced subtitles as found in fansubs. I'm not being sarcastic, I've yet to see any player actually do this, despite all the rendering libraries being opensource (like LibASS or the reference implementation itself, vobsub).
A few years ago, the best you could do was players like Popcorn Hour which would transform ASS subtitles into SRT before display, which has a bunch of serious drawbacks. In addition to what you'd expect in terms of not supporting fonts, colours, transformations (kind of useful for putting the translation of a sign in the right place) or animation, SRT also doesn't support showing more than one subtitle on screen at a time. So whenever you'd have dialog and a translation note, or dialog and a textual (like a sign) translation on screen at the same time, when converting to SRT, you'd lose anything but the first one to display.
These days, you can find somewhat better subtitle support... modern Popcorn Hour boxes have partial direct ASS support, which might be considered "good enough" but perusing their forums shows that firmware updates randomly break it. And I don't think I've seen real subtitle support in much other than Popcorn Hour.
Again, I don't really understand why. All the relevant code is opensource, the work is already done, and all of these streamers are already using opensource code, so there shouldn't be a licensing issue...
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Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org |
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TOPDAWGPremium
join:2005-04-27
Midland, ON
kudos:3 | reply to Guspaz
oh the way you talk tech it seemed like you got a sever rack and all types of goodies in your home. I got a shit set-up needs cleaning up bad I tell you if I ever finish my basement I want to fix everything up nice. |
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