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Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to neochu

Re: Kayla Bourque - Killer in the waiting

There are plenty of methods available to improve the quality of life and outcome of those with various personality disorders. They are not the death sentence that you make them out to be. To say as much demonstrates is the pathetic apathy that exists when it comes to care for the mentally ill in the industrialized world.

If you have "38 or 39 case where they have failed" then you either aren't trying hard enough, or you're lying by omission. Take your pick.



neochu

join:2008-12-12
Windsor, ON

They were social contacts who succumbed to the lack of access to the needed expertise and assistance beyond 'medicate into stasis and damn the side effects.' Its a long story and I'm not going to write an autobiography on it (and expose myself to further stigma).

It is a 'symptom of the pathetic way mental health care has been industrialized and automated like an assembly line'. Like you have said

You seem to be keenly aware of some of the techniques and alternate treatments for PD--outside from what I have listed in my prior post.

You'll also know how difficult (and expensive) such treatment and expertise can be.

Do you really expect the justice/mental health system to pay for that on every person who enters it? Especially when the province BARELY pays for basic talk therapy for non PD cases?

Just look at what happens in the Ontario Mental Health Courts... Though it certainly the work they do is a start.



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Yes, I know all too well. It is a very sensitive subject as someone very close to me suffers from one of those Axis II disorders, among other things. I do not buy into the "they can't be helped" mantra as they can be, and my own experiences with the subject show that.

Treatment is available. Finding it is a whole other story.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
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·Cogeco Cable
reply to NCRGuy

said by NCRGuy:

He's been pretty clear about his stance: you're wrong.

And you're wrong too. Boy that was easy, see how much credibility you both have on the topic.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Considering that NCRGuy has a demonstrated breadth of knowledge on federal law, constitution rights and other associated issues to which I safely assume is part of his career, he's certainly in a better position to critique the knowledge of someone on this subject than you are.

If you don't believe Kardinal, NCRGuy or I on anything we've said, talk to a lawyer who deals in constitutional law and Charter challenges. There are several of them in St. Catharines. They'll set you straight right and quick.



Kardinal
Dei Gratia Regina
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reply to NCRGuy

said by NCRGuy:

said by urbanriot:

You've done that plenty in this thread when it suits you; however I'm asking you to directly respond on the topic we've been discussing with your stance and you refuse to. I can only guess that you're afraid of being criticized yourself or maybe you're ashamed of it? Not sure, can only guess... At least some folks here have the balls to stand up for their views rather than snipe everyone else.

He's been pretty clear about his stance: you're wrong. In debating your position, he is only discussing that position and its merits (or rather, lack thereof). There is no onus on him to propose an alternative model in order to demonstrate that yours is flawed and unrealistic.

Thanks - I thought I was pretty clear in what I was doing, so it's nice to see that it's been clear to others too. It's obvious that clarity and debate isn't what's being sought, but merely trolling and hoping for a reaction.
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars

- Peart / Lifeson / Lee
Join Team Helix


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

said by Kardinal:

Thanks - I thought I was pretty clear in what I was doing, so it's nice to see that it's been clear to others too. It's obvious that clarity and debate isn't what's being sought, but merely trolling and hoping for a reaction.

This was never a debate. It was merely a rant by those who don't understand the legal system they live under and anger and contempt toward those who reminded them of that.


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to vue666

I wonder if Americans who are demanding gun law changes go through the same anger and contempt when they are reminded of the second amendment argument...

When trapped knee deep in horse shit an optimist will keep on digging adamant there is a pony underneath.... LOL



Anav
Sarcastic Llama? Naw, Just Acerbic
Premium
join:2001-07-16
Dartmouth, NS
kudos:5
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

said by Kardinal:

Thanks - I thought I was pretty clear in what I was doing, so it's nice to see that it's been clear to others too. It's obvious that clarity and debate isn't what's being sought, but merely trolling and hoping for a reaction.

This was never a debate. It was merely a rant by those who don't understand the legal system they live under and anger and contempt toward those who reminded them of that.

The legal system is not quite as bad as the catholic church but its behind the times. Its a slow moving morass which probably does prevent radical mistakes that us hot headed whackos desire. No question what I propose would be extremely difficult but there is a need and in due course it may prove to be widespread enough to elicit movement in the quagmire of our system. However I am not interested in dicussing the mechanics of how our legal system or charter would need to change. That is fodder for another thread. Conveniently the ostriches in this forum are firmly entrenched to link the topic to the a. illegality of what we are proposing and b. the impossibility of changing the legal system, and thus c. as pointed out by urban your participation in the thread is mule like in nature and selfish.
I continue to acknowledge the points you have made but the naysayers are adamently blind to discussing the topic well to be fair Kardinal has a better balanced approach although listing heavily in the wrong direction (and by wrong I mean opposite of mine as opposed to right and wrong). Cheerio!!
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins".
Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner"

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Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Kardinal and I share the exact same vie on this issue and both are just as balanced and as such we are in complete agreement in our views. If you think Kardinal's "better balanced approach" of calling you all out for not knowing what you're talking about is something more agreeable, mine is just as much so.

If you don't believe me, ask Kardinal.



vue666
Small block Chevies rule
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join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1
reply to vue666

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke....



Kardinal
Dei Gratia Regina
Premium,Mod
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th
reply to vue666

.....and that's why I stood up and said that changing the fundamental rights of all Canadians, rather than changing laws/policy for a specific problem, was wrong. I refuse to do nothing when such evil is afoot.



vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
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said by Kardinal:

.....and that's why I stood up and said that changing the fundamental rights of all Canadians, rather than changing laws/policy for a specific problem, was wrong. I refuse to do nothing when such evil is afoot.

Sounds like a NRA response....


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
reply to Kardinal

I believe that qualifies as the grossest exaggeration of 'standing up' and 'evil' that I've seen in a long time.


NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
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said by urbanriot:

I believe that qualifies as the grossest exaggeration of 'standing up' and 'evil' that I've seen in a long time.

Actually, it's pretty much in keeping with the intent of Burke's comment.

I believe Franklin had something to say about those willing to throw their rights away in the interest of security....


vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1

Is that the same Benjamin Franklin quote often used by the NRA?

"Anyone who would trade their freedom for safety
deserves neither freedom or safety." - Benjamin Franklin


NCRGuy

join:2008-03-03
Ottawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

said by vue666:

Is that the same Benjamin Franklin quote often used by the NRA?

"Anyone who would trade their freedom for safety
deserves neither freedom or safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Bingo. Which demonstrates how useless parroting pithy quotes without context is not helpful.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
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Reviews:
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The context of time and country is also important, considering that these quotes are from 300 years ago, in another country, before the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was signed into law... recently, in the 80's.

We could also quote Canadian citizens, both on the left and the right, who've been critical of certain aspects of this fresh document or post examples of how there have been legal variations in interpreting certain items in this document... but people in this thread haven't been attacking the rights of Canadians, they've been concerned for the rights of innocent people. Claiming this is 'evil' is a laughable exaggeration.



vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1

Bang on Urban....



Kardinal
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1 edit

1 recommendation

said by urbanriot:

but people in this thread haven't been attacking the rights of Canadians, they've been concerned for the rights of innocent people.

said by vue666:

Bang on Urban....

Wrong. The proposal of indefinite detention does attack the existing fundamental rights of all Canadians and non-citizens living in Canada that are covered by the Charter (which is part of the Constitution), and why this is so has already been discussed at length so I'm not going to re-post that which has already been stated and shown. Not liking the facts doesn't make them untrue, and denying them doesn't make them go away.

If anyone comes up with an alternate idea for how they'd like to address the problem they perceive, I'm sure there will be discussion on it. As stated upthread, pithy quotes without context are not helpful.

(edit = fixed grammar error)
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars

- Peart / Lifeson / Lee
Join Team Helix

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to vue666

said by vue666:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke....

So, what are YOU ACTUALLY doing to defeat that "evil"? I mean REAL actions, not whining on forums.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3

Ouch. Why so bitter?



vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1
reply to vue666

Sign the on-line petition....

»www.causes.com/actions/1710547-u···r=804693



vue666
Small block Chevies rule
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1
reply to Kardinal

Kardinal, you would make the NRA proud...



Kardinal
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2 recommendations

reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

Ouch. Why so bitter?

I'm not about to answer for IamGimli See Profile, but if I were to hazard a guess I'd go with "tired of the false truths/innuendo, trolling and sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing" for $200 please Alex. It seems those with the loudest voices decrying others for 'not contributing, just criticizing' are the ones who don't seem to contribute much other than criticism of others and pithy quotes. It's sad, but it's not particularly surprising.

For all the commentary and attempts to discredit facts brought forward upthread, and stated desires to "make a change", there hasn't been a single new proposal in this thread since that of indefinite detention. I'm not making a judgement call on it, I'm just pointing it out.
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars

- Peart / Lifeson / Lee
Join Team Helix


bluebaron2
Stuff Happens
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North of 44

1 recommendation

reply to vue666

Click for full size
We're not going anywhere anymore.