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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
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reply to OHN

Re: Salary Research for Negotiation

said by OHN:

I think you are 100% correct. Whenever something is thrown at me, I always say yes and get the job done. I do not think they appreciate what I do. I have started writing down everything. In all honesty, some stuff I was thinking of skipping because I thought, well it is not a big deal but once I started analyzing what I do and what it entails, it did end up being a big deal. It is because of what I do that we rely so little on other departments like Server Amins, Telecommunications and ecommerce. In addition, our reliance on consultants has greatly minimized when it comes to tech in the call center.

As far as the person thinking the lack of college or certifications may be the issue, I do not believe so. The person that was promoted has neither college nor certifications. If we were to look at banking experience alone, we have about the same (I have 17+ years). When it comes to managing the call center, we also have similar responsibilities. Based on these similarities alone, we should be on the same level. Again, I have the same if not more, experience as a banker so I can do his job but earn a little less than he earns.

With that said, I then have the Technical responsibilities and knowledge (15+ years) that as you all know, require wearing multiple hats. This is something that this person cannot do or learn. After all, we are all hardcore geeks that eat, sleep and dream this stuff . When you account for that, it even substantiates me having a higher level let alone an equal one.

Summary: If you were to consider me only a call center manager, I am underpaid and at a lower salary level then I should be.

When you account for what I bring to the table technology wise, I am $15,000 underpaid and should even be a higher level than the other person.

Sounds like you have a plan and it also sounds like your boss is receptive to the idea as well. That alone is half the battle. Now all you need to do is to put together a solid argument as to why you should be paid more. From the way it sounds, you are on track.

Good luck!
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


Modus
I hate smartassery on forums
Premium
join:2005-05-02
us
reply to Nightfall

said by Nightfall:

said by Modus:

said by Nightfall:

These days, its just too easy to find someone with 10 years of experience with a degree and certs and pay them more.

I tell you for a fact that this doesn't apply where i am and may be the same in other areas

Depends on your location I guess. In most major cities, there are a lot of talented IT people out there. I know when we were looking for a Network Admin, we got hit with a bunch of resumes. The top 3 candidates selected all had 5+ years experience, a 4 year degree in IT, and certifications ranging from MCP, CCNA, and MCITP. We easily bypassed people with the same experience with no degree or no certs.

I'm in a major city and recently just went through the same thing but i found that in our case those resumes looked great but once those people were bought in for interviews the knowledge level didn't match what was on the resume.
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!


Modus
I hate smartassery on forums
Premium
join:2005-05-02
us
reply to OHN

said by OHN:

I think you are 100% correct. Whenever something is thrown at me, I always say yes and get the job done. I do not think they appreciate what I do. I have started writing down everything. In all honesty, some stuff I was thinking of skipping because I thought, well it is not a big deal but once I started analyzing what I do and what it entails, it did end up being a big deal. It is because of what I do that we rely so little on other departments like Server Amins, Telecommunications and ecommerce. In addition, our reliance on consultants has greatly minimized when it comes to tech in the call center.

As far as the person thinking the lack of college or certifications may be the issue, I do not believe so. The person that was promoted has neither college nor certifications. If we were to look at banking experience alone, we have about the same (I have 17+ years). When it comes to managing the call center, we also have similar responsibilities. Based on these similarities alone, we should be on the same level. Again, I have the same if not more, experience as a banker so I can do his job but earn a little less than he earns.

With that said, I then have the Technical responsibilities and knowledge (15+ years) that as you all know, require wearing multiple hats. This is something that this person cannot do or learn. After all, we are all hardcore geeks that eat, sleep and dream this stuff . When you account for that, it even substantiates me having a higher level let alone an equal one.

Summary: If you were to consider me only a call center manager, I am underpaid and at a lower salary level then I should be.

When you account for what I bring to the table technology wise, I am $15,000 underpaid and should even be a higher level than the other person.

Good luck with this...hopefully they get a true understanding of the value you bring to them.
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Nightfall

said by Nightfall:

Now all you need to do is to put together a solid argument as to why you should be paid more. From the way it sounds, you are on track.

Good luck!

+1
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1
reply to Nightfall

With all do respect, I have worked on many occasions with people that have these certificates and have come to found out it does not necessarily indicate they know what they are doing. I do however recognize it would not hurt me to get them. That may be something for me to shoot for in the future.


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1
reply to Nightfall

Thank you so much. I appreciate your feedback. Lets see how it goes. If it does not work out, then I can say I at least tried rather than just leaving. I have already received offers from other employers. The pay would be about the same but my work would be focused i.e. managing workforce (wfm) or project management instead of "jack of all trades".


Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1
reply to OHN

said by OHN:

With all do respect, I have worked on many occasions with people that have these certificates and have come to found out it does not necessarily indicate they know what they are doing. I do however recognize it would not hurt me to get them. That may be something for me to shoot for in the future.

It matters to the hiring people. That's the only reason why a lot of IT people have any certifications at all.

OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

I agree with you. That is how it is in general. My point though is that if someone is afforded the opportunity and gains the real world experiance, that does account for something. In my case I am confident it is not related to the lack of certifications. It is more due to lack of understanding of my manager. I will make it one of my goals to obtain the certifications at least. Having them and real world experiance should make me an even stronger candidate.



Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

In the real world things like hiring and salary increase decisions do not depend solely on "hard" attributes like qualifications and experience; there is also the "soft" traits such as likeability, personality, etc. Could be your management just likes her more than you. Could be she is more sociable, "shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed more, which leads to a more favorable impression, and so on.

As is often the case, your contributions on the tech side prevent problems from reaching upper management, if they are even noticed at all. Your work is thus under their radar. This is a potential pitfall in organizations that do not know how much a good tech saves them. They can't appreciate what they are not aware of.



Modus
I hate smartassery on forums
Premium
join:2005-05-02
us

said by Wily_One:

In the real world things like hiring and salary increase decisions do not depend solely on "hard" attributes like qualifications and experience; there is also the "soft" traits such as likeability, personality, etc. Could be your management just likes her more than you. Could be she is more sociable, "shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed more, which leads to a more favorable impression, and so on.

+1 this something that never gets mentioned but behind closed doors it comes during the conversation. We had to fill a opening for finance director and one of the candidates was the assistant finance director, long story short she didn't get the job because the lack of soft skills.
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Wily_One

said by Wily_One:

"shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed

is that what they are calling it these days?
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to OHN

As you move up in salary the ability to effectively communicate with not just those that work for you but those you work for becomes increasing important. The Soft Skills aka People Skills aka interpersonal communications all relates to the ability to effectively communicate and in a manor that leaves positive feelings from those you interact with.

You mentioned that your bosses may not know all that you do or the effect of decisions they make possibly indicate your not communicating well with the bosses. They can't do there jobs well if they don't know whats really doing on in the departments their responsible for and that your responsibility so they have a clear understanding.

Also, 80K is nothing to sneeze at, in general, IT and technical manager salaries are flat at best, if not being pushed down by the recent economies, there is no shortages of people willing and waiting to have your job for less pay. I don't doubt you perform well and have significant value, but in the bosses eyes, at there level, its all about costs, so tread lightly.



Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
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reply to OHN

said by OHN:

With all do respect, I have worked on many occasions with people that have these certificates and have come to found out it does not necessarily indicate they know what they are doing. I do however recognize it would not hurt me to get them. That may be something for me to shoot for in the future.

Certifications, a degree, and past experience are no indications that people know what they are doing. The only way you know if people know what they are doing is to have them do it and you see that they can do something. In this world though, with the job market so tight, as someone who does hiring in IT I can tell you that the first thing I look for is a candidate strong in all three areas. It is easy to find people strong in all three areas right now. Its a buyers market out there.

Don't discount the strength of certifications and a degree because you don't have one. Odds are you are not getting the big payday because those two areas are areas of weakness on your resume.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com
reply to Wily_One

said by Wily_One:

In the real world things like hiring and salary increase decisions do not depend solely on "hard" attributes like qualifications and experience; there is also the "soft" traits such as likeability, personality, etc. Could be your management just likes her more than you. Could be she is more sociable, "shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed more, which leads to a more favorable impression, and so on.

As is often the case, your contributions on the tech side prevent problems from reaching upper management, if they are even noticed at all. Your work is thus under their radar. This is a potential pitfall in organizations that do not know how much a good tech saves them. They can't appreciate what they are not aware of.

I agree with this as well. Personality and attitude are so important.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

said by Nightfall:

said by Wily_One:

As is often the case, your contributions on the tech side prevent problems from reaching upper management, if they are even noticed at all. Your work is thus under their radar. This is a potential pitfall in organizations that do not know how much a good tech saves them. They can't appreciate what they are not aware of.

I agree with this as well. Personality and attitude are so important.

The most highly mobile managers in every organization I've worked for are the ones that know how to get credit for the work they do, even if other do more and take that kind of work for granted.

I can't tell you how many artificial fires I've seen put out that I could do in 30 minutes from home.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to AVD

said by AVD:

said by Wily_One:

"shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed

is that what they are calling it these days?

heh - well I was trying to be more politically correct than saying "kiss ass".
How about "sycophant"?


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

said by Wily_One:

said by AVD:

said by Wily_One:

"shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed

is that what they are calling it these days?

heh - well I was trying to be more politically correct than saying "kiss ass".
How about "sycophant"?

I was implying they were kissing somewhere else...
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* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA

Could be... What's the old saying?:
"It's not what you know, it's who you blow."  


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

4 edits
reply to Wily_One

...



Black Box

join:2002-12-21

1 edit

said by OHN:

....

Here's your problem. He's afraid of you and he's keeping you down. You need a new boss, one way or another.
--
Keep It Safe, Stupid!

Yes, I CanChat. Can You?

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

^^ +1 ^^

Unfortunately in life you have to play the cards your dealt with, make sure all conversations are documented with hard copies via email, even if it was a verbal request, this way you have a record of your work.

Stop worrying about all the "other" groups and just focus on making your boss happy, he is the only one that decides your pay.

One last thought, while the bosses boss may have given you much praise in the past, for some reason, it is necessary to have a supervisor between you?, that raises a red flag.

Since you seem to have a strained relationship with your boss, I would really be careful on what you do to attempt a salary increase. Ask yourself the question is my current pay better than no pay, might seem over the top, but just remember, the boss you have may not appreciate you pointing out flaws or inequity's in his method of assigning pay rates, and he could find it easier to get rid of you ( and bring in someone new at lower rate ) than allow your documentation putting him in an unfavorable light ... as I said 80K with no degrees or certifications is not something one can find if unemployed in IT

I have a nephew in a call center environment, very IT savvy and about 10 years experience, he has told me a few time the stand operational practice is to get rid of ANY senor people as its much cheaper to just keep bringing in new people than letting salary creep take it hold. I know every place is different but thought a little prospective would help ground your thinking


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

4 edits

.....


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to Black Box

...



Modus
I hate smartassery on forums
Premium
join:2005-05-02
us
reply to OHN

said by OHN:

Last thing, I already applied at a couple places and was offered 80k for the Business Systems Analyst position (I would actually do less than I do now). I turned it down because I first wanted to try work things out with my current employer. Keep in mind where you and I live as the cost of living will be different.

Wow you turned down 80k??????? that's nothing to sneeze at
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!

Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1

said by Modus:

said by OHN:

Last thing, I already applied at a couple places and was offered 80k for the Business Systems Analyst position (I would actually do less than I do now). I turned it down because I first wanted to try work things out with my current employer. Keep in mind where you and I live as the cost of living will be different.

Wow you turned down 80k??????? that's nothing to sneeze at

Yeah 80 with no degree and no certs is pretty good. Once I'm done with school (for a 4 year IS degree) and with some non-A+ certs and 5+ years experience, I'll be happy to pull 70 or 75 in an as-yet-undetermined administrative or managerial IT position.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

said by Oedipus:

Yeah 80 with no degree and no certs is pretty good.

he had 20+ years of experience.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by AVD:

said by Oedipus:

Yeah 80 with no degree and no certs is pretty good.

he had 20+ years of experience.

Anything over 7+ years in IT does mean much as the technology is constantly changing. I wish the OP best in his venture for better pay!


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

with 20 under his belt, it show he can adapt and adopt


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to Modus

...


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

4 edits
reply to AVD

Thank you all for contributing to this thread though. I think it served its purpose.