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gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to prairiesky

Re: [Bus. Ops] Are you an Wireless ISP looking for more revenue?

What you guys CLEARLY miss is this is sponsored by the companies you are buying from online in the first place. It's NOT voodoo.

This has been available to individual customers via similar non-paid- for sponsored websites for a long time now.

Take the same model, and give it to an ISP, and you have something that makes money, without any risk.

We do have a privacy policy. It's very clear, and this doesn't break it one bit.

Now ask all the big ISP's what they are doing in the background with redirects for search engines. Pop up advertisements... Ask Google what they are going with their own ISP and it's advertisement revenues from their customers?...

You guys are clearly grasping at straws over something you don't understand, nor care to want to understand. I'll take my check and be perfectly happy with it, thanks.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net

BlueC

join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:1
Oh, we understand.

Just because the large ISPs are taking on similar measures to increase revenue, doesn't make it right.

shorthairedp

join:2005-11-21
united state
reply to prairiesky
This is not ALL internet traffic, Just traffic to the retailers involved in the affiliate program or whatever it is called. So the retailer is involved. The end user was going to that site anyway.

It doesnt matter anyway, if this wasnt going on, everyone would get the same ad when they go to any page that serves ads, so you are already part of this.

The reality is this is a service to the end user, the end user gets more targeted advertising. I would much prefer I get an ad about something I care about than say an ad for nickel plated shoe horns.

If this was injecting ads into a toolbar without consent that would be a different story and the conspiracy theorists here would be justified, but its just standard operating procedure, at least this way you know who is serving ads to your customer base.


TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
reply to gunther_01
said by gunther_01:

something you don't understand, nor care to want to understand

Some of us understand it perfectly well. No need to be insulting.

bburley

join:2010-04-30
Cold Lake, AB
I am not going to take sides on this particular issue. It is certainly possible that this company is not doing anything more evil than tracking sales and accumulating marketing data. What large and/or Internet retailer doesn't do that these days.

What does disturb me is the overall trend. Pressure from stockholders and rising operating costs tend to drive various companies further to the evil side in search of profit. The line that is drawn between a reasonable service and invasive data mining for something new to sell becomes fluid and moveable.

Facebook is just one example. It appears that outrageous Terms of Service are not really defeated, they just take longer to implement. The new phrase "You are the product" seems here to stay.

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to TomS_
said by TomS_:

said by gunther_01:

something you don't understand, nor care to want to understand

Some of us understand it perfectly well. No need to be insulting.

Except I'm some how selling my soul by making money.. That's alright though?

I would say bburley has it the most accurate. We are getting paid by allowing the retailer to gather marketing data from our customers. NOT, sell them more, via pop up ads. Not sending them to web sites they don't or didn't want to go to in the first place.

The premise is sound. It's sponsored by the retailer the customer is using anyway. And it doesn't violate any kind of privacy act in any way, because we aren't allowing anyone access to personal information. Only the company who already knows about the purchase (since you are buying from them any way) knows anything personal about you and/or your purchase. AND, it can be bypassed if someone doesn't like it by changing DNS servers on their PC.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net

BlueC

join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Integra Telecom

2 recommendations

said by gunther_01:

Except I'm some how selling my soul by making money.. That's alright though?

I would say bburley has it the most accurate. We are getting paid by allowing the retailer to gather marketing data from our customers. NOT, sell them more, via pop up ads. Not sending them to web sites they don't or didn't want to go to in the first place.

The premise is sound. It's sponsored by the retailer the customer is using anyway. And it doesn't violate any kind of privacy act in any way, because we aren't allowing anyone access to personal information. Only the company who already knows about the purchase (since you are buying from them any way) knows anything personal about you and/or your purchase. AND, it can be bypassed if someone doesn't like it by changing DNS servers on their PC.

I feel you are missing the point. You're operating a private network, right? Your customers are leasing access on this said network. These customers assume the traffic traveling over your network is only being monitored/accessed by you as an ISP.

The minute you start allowing 3rd parties to have access to customer data traveling over your network, it opens the door to other things.

I guess we view the role of an ISP differently. I personally believe an ISPs role is to provide their customers with access to the internet and maintaining exactly that. It would be the same as a phone provider allowing 3rd parties to gain access to information of your phone usage. It doesn't sit right with me, I wouldn't do it to my own customers.

That's simply my opinion on the matter. While you may disagree, I would imagine some of your customers would side with my viewpoint.

bburley

join:2010-04-30
Cold Lake, AB

1 recommendation

When I said I wasn't going to take sides, I meant that I wasn't going to declare this particular company any more evil than what it says it is doing.

But I do agree with BlueC, and I would not attach this type of company to the network that I look after.

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08
reply to prairiesky
Gunther your privacy policy (»www.wirelessdatanet.net/ ··· acy.html) makes no mention of you using a third party advertising company (Cash4Trafik) for DNS.

I feel this is something you should tell your customers/future customers. Even if you just make it so if they want to opt out tell them to use a third party DNS service such as level3's (4.2.2.4) or googles (8.8.8.8).

You owe it to your customers to be up front with them about your policy's.

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to prairiesky
And my policy is NOT going to say anything about it, because we aren't giving out any personal information about our customers. Does your policy tell all of your customers that they are getting screwed by Google every time they type "google"? No it doesn't, does it.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08
said by gunther_01:

And my policy is NOT going to say anything about it, because we aren't giving out any personal information about our customers. Does your policy tell all of your customers that they are getting screwed by Google every time they type "google"? No it doesn't, does it.

I sure would tell my customers if every domain name they resolve could be logged by a third party without my or their consent.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to gunther_01
said by gunther_01:

Does your policy tell all of your customers that they are getting screwed by Google every time they type "google"? No it doesn't, does it.

My job is to provide access. What they do with it and any sites they go to is none of my business. What does Google have to do with my customers connection to the World Wide Web other than being an address on it?

raytaylor

join:2009-07-28
kudos:1
said by robbin:

said by gunther_01:

Does your policy tell all of your customers that they are getting screwed by Google every time they type "google"? No it doesn't, does it.

My job is to provide access. What they do with it and any sites they go to is none of my business. What does Google have to do with my customers connection to the World Wide Web other than being an address on it?

I have never cared about cookies. I never cared if a google wanted to track the websites i go to so they can target adwords or adchoices to me.

But recently in the last 2 months i have REALLY noticed it. I see ads everywhere on sites that are related to things i have recently done research on.
For example - adverts in gmail used to be based on the email i was reading or with adwords on a website, it was based on the content of that site.

I spent three days researching solar controller and grid tie systems. For the next three weeks, adwords and others started displaying solar equipment adverts. Across multiple websites and gmail, unrelated to solar stuff.

That, to be honest, annoyed me. But for no reason other than i am annoyed that they are 'watching me' - even though "they" is just an algorithm in some cloud somewhere. It felt like something was being targeted directly at me.

Now take DNS logs from my dns server, filter them by my ip address, and suddenly you have an alternative to using cookies. You can see what websites i visit and crawl them for subject matter.
Then check cookies to see if anyone else is using my ip address in my home with different surfing patterns and you could send targeted advertisments via adwords or other networks based on my ip address.

You could also start messing with my traffic in subtle ways:
For example
Whenever i visit google, i could be sent to a google proxy that shows a replica of google homepage, but the submit button is tied to the rogue website's google search affiliate code.

We use some software in our internet cafe called handycafe. Its free internet cafe software - but it redirects google's homepage on the pc in a similar way as the above examples. Whenever you search for something, the first three results are always adwords advertisments which is how handycafe make their money.

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to OHSrob
said by OHSrob:

said by gunther_01:

And my policy is NOT going to say anything about it, because we aren't giving out any personal information about our customers. Does your policy tell all of your customers that they are getting screwed by Google every time they type "google"? No it doesn't, does it.

I sure would tell my customers if every domain name they resolve could be logged by a third party without my or their consent.

But it isn't. Only the websites of a retailer (that the customer is going to anyway) is..

I am content with the wordage in my contract with them. What they are doing, how, and for what reasons.. I am not out of line, nor going to play the devil's advocate when I have a contract that states otherwise to what this group is claiming can, is, or would be done with this information. You don't like the idea, that's fine with me. I happen to like it. It works, and is just fine with my ideals and my privacy policy to my customers.

It is a far cry better than what a lot of other companies do with your private information. And lets keep in mind, NOTHING you do on the Internet is secure, and private, unless it's via SSL. There is NO reasonable method of privacy inferred on the web. If your privacy policy states that there is, you should probably change yours before griping about mine.

We don't sell, or give our your personal, private contact information. And that's enough for me. Look around at businesses you deal with, and check out how many do just that. It's more than you realize.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net


TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
reply to gunther_01
said by gunther_01:

Does your policy tell all of your customers that they are getting screwed by Google every time they type "google"? No it doesn't, does it.

The thing is, they are doing that voluntarily, and are quite free to leave and use another search engine if they really do feel like they are being "screwed."

Whereas you have opted all of your customers in to a scheme they have no idea is even running. It may take pure chance for someone to discover it depending on how technical they are, and then they have to request to opt out.

Theres a big difference...

Anyway, I dont know why you are so staunchly defensive of these guys. No one put you on trial here. You could have left it at "I use them and have no problem with it"...

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to prairiesky
I think when people start throwing some names, and insinuations around, people get defensive.

I don't have any interest in the company if that is what you are getting at.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net


TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
I wasnt getting at that. I just cant understand why you seem to be taking it almost personally when as you say you have nothing to do with them.

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to prairiesky
I take insults personally.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to TomS_
said by TomS_:

I wasnt getting at that. I just cant understand why you seem to be taking it almost personally when as you say you have nothing to do with them.

I've kept out of this topic so far because I can see it being a fine line, but there were direct attacks towards gunther_01 after he did admit to using it, and I can absolutely understand why he has been forced to be defensive about it.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
I don't see any direct attacks against anyone even after rereading the thread.


TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
reply to jcremin
To be fair, unwired also said they used it, but they left it at that and were never mentioned or quoted afterwards.

gunther_01 posted 3 times before anyone quoted him (yeah, I was the first, and it was a joke hence the big grinning smiley) and the 2nd and 3rd posts were basically defence defence defence.

edit: actually I see bburley quoted some text before me, but not using the quote tags, so I missed it

Its only natural that he has been picked on when he has been so vocal, just has people have hit back at me because Ive been somewhat vocal too. But this is adult discussion, we are all professionals, and no one is deliberately trying to be insulting towards anyone... right?

It has been a heated discussion, the most heated I have been involved in in the WISP forum that is for sure! Clearly this is a big issue to everyone involved, and from all sides of the fence.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to prairiesky
*ignores thread*

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to prairiesky
I think John has the right idea to be honest.

Tom, No, I don't think it is "natural" to be "picked on". I didn't like some of the wording and insinuations between myself and what others think of this concept. The two are not related in my opinion, even if I choose to use this product.

Yes, I am, and can be defensive. And to be quite honest at least one of those comments (without name or reference) could have gotten someone hit had that been an in-person comment.

While the comments aren't directly rude, or insulting, some can take them that way. Add to that, some didn't even want to hear how the system works. And introduced their own fear mongering in to a company they know nothing about.

To each their own.

And since I had a network outage today, and the owner of said company contacted me to see if we were having an issue with his equipment, I'll send him a note about this thread in case he wishes to get involved or clarify anything. But I am out of it.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net


TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
I only mean natural in the sense of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease."

If youre going to have an opinion or be vocal about something, expect attention, some of which you might not like.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to TomS_
said by robbin:

I don't see any direct attacks against anyone even after rereading the thread.

said by TomS_:

gunther_01 posted 3 times before anyone quoted him and the 2nd and 3rd posts were basically defence defence defence.

I don't plan to get any more involved in this thread other than to say that I thought the first few replies were more explanatory than anything. I think the line may have been crossed when his actual privacy policy was posted and analyzed. That would have gotten me defensive too.

I can see a bit of defense in the posts even before that happened, but I also see a bit of over-reacting from some people too and it could easily have been construed as an attack on those who do use this product.

Sure, the concerns may be valid, but there's nothing to say that the same thing couldn't happen when using ANY 3rd party DNS, and nobody seems to have a problem with recommending Google's public DNS, or Level 3's DNS, etc.

That's all.....

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
said by jcremin:

I think the line may have been crossed when his actual privacy policy was posted and analyzed. That would have gotten me defensive too.

Sorry -- I don't buy it. If a member includes a link to their business by way of a sig in every post they make, then that information is fair game.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
said by robbin:

said by jcremin:

I think the line may have been crossed when his actual privacy policy was posted and analyzed. That would have gotten me defensive too.

Sorry -- I don't buy it. If a member includes a link to their business by way of a sig in every post they make, then that information is fair game.

I'm not saying he was trying to hide it... Just saying that it turned personal at that point and he had every right to defend his practice if he feels it is appropriate, just like you (or anyone else) has a right to defend their position. If one person is supposed to drop it, why aren't you? (and the word "you" is not directed at anyone specific, but at everyone in this case)

I haven't taken a stance for or against the practice, and I suggest everyone get over it. Ok, some are for it and think it is okay. Some are against it and don't think it is okay. Both sides are getting a bit aggressive and that's the point in which this topic becomes useless.


seagreen
Premium,Mod
join:2001-05-14
out there

1 recommendation

reply to prairiesky
I've been asked to review this topic and I've read the entire thing. I see nothing that needs to be edited now - let's keep it that way.

It's an interesting and informative topic and I'd like to see it continue and be a worthwhile discussion for all participants so let's be mindful what we say to each other. Thank you.