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Who7

join:2012-12-18
reply to Bugblndr

Re: A summary of How Teksavvy has failed it's customers..

said by Bugblndr:

It's nice to see some sane heads in this thread from time to time.

Versus anyone who doesn't agree with your view/opinion would be insane?


Who7

join:2012-12-18
Through human history, there are always those who rather surrender then fight. particularly if the fight seems to affect the OTHER guy.

"I don't download, so why should I care".....

Until he gets a notice of a false positive or finds his name on a database, or someone hacks his wifi.

This privacy issue is very much an issue of......then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.


Tx
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reply to Who7
said by Who7:

said by Bugblndr:

It's nice to see some sane heads in this thread from time to time.

Versus anyone who doesn't agree with your view/opinion would be insane?

It seem's unless you're up an ISP's ass or (product such as Apple/Microsoft) you're not a "sane head" because your views differ.

So unless we all in cult fashion start saying the same thing together we who oppose are not of the "sane heads"...

Odd mentality isn't it?

Bugblndr

join:2010-03-02
Burlington, ON
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said by Tx See ProfileIt seem's unless you're up an ISP's ass or (product such as Apple/Microsoft) you're not a "sane head" because your views differ.

So unless we all in cult fashion start saying the same thing together we who oppose are not of the "sane heads"...

Odd mentality isn't it?

I'm not up any ISP's ass, or software company's ass either. In the past 3 years I've used 4 different ISP's, Teksavvy two times. I use MS, Apple, and Linux OS's and don't consider myself a lemming.

My point is, until the motion is heard and the results determined, no one here really knows what is going to go down or how it is going to go down. Marc has already stated that "I will be there to ensure your privacy is taken seriously...."

I wouldn't expect any of the players in this to post their full and true intentions of their strategy on such a public forum where their adversary could easily read it. I do know that if my IP was on the list, I would've already consulted with my attorney to determine my best course of action.

Monday should be interesting, and I do hope that Voltage gets shot down. They are the bad guys in this IMO, not Teksavvy.


Tx
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said by Bugblndr:

said by Tx See ProfileIt seem's unless you're up an ISP's ass or (product such as Apple/Microsoft) you're not a "sane head" because your views differ.

So unless we all in cult fashion start saying the same thing together we who oppose are not of the "sane heads"...

Odd mentality isn't it?

I'm not up any ISP's ass, or software company's ass either. In the past 3 years I've used 4 different ISP's, Teksavvy two times. I use MS, Apple, and Linux OS's and don't consider myself a lemming.

My point is, until the motion is heard and the results determined, no one here really knows what is going to go down or how it is going to go down. Marc has already stated that "I will be there to ensure your privacy is taken seriously...."

I wouldn't expect any of the players in this to post their full and true intentions of their strategy on such a public forum where their adversary could easily read it. I do know that if my IP was on the list, I would've already consulted with my attorney to determine my best course of action.

Monday should be interesting, and I do hope that Voltage gets shot down. They are the bad guys in this IMO, not Teksavvy.

You are absolutely correct, Voltage are the bad guys, hands down. Anyone who agrees with them are fools. Name calling or not, they are. Problem is TSI is making it too easy for Voltage to extort their customers. This isn't some joe from ABC LLC that found 3 customers pirating his software and would like for it to stop. This is a far deeper issue. If TSI hands this info over, mark my words (should a judge grant it) Voltage will be back with tons more for months or years to come.

Unfortunately Teksavvy was entrusted to protect our privacy. When someone comes knocking at their door alleging they have IPs of people who downloaded a "move or software" then yea, not questioning it is odd. A judge allow voltage to compel this information if they say they have it along with a third party's affidavit saying so. It's too simple.

TSI get's rich off of a per IP/customer model and voltage creates a new revenue since their movies don't make enough money. At least to question the evidence and the method used to gather it and it's accuracy would have been nice.

MaynardKrebs
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said by Tx:

.....Problem is TSI is making it too easy for Voltage to extort their customers.

As "Hamilton Burger" of "Perry" Mason fame would say, "Immaterial, irrelevant, and incompetent, your Honor".

You don't know what is going to happen on Monday (unless you are now part of TSI's legal team) so your statement is merely speculative.


Tx
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said by MaynardKrebs:

said by Tx:

.....Problem is TSI is making it too easy for Voltage to extort their customers.

As "Hamilton Burger" of "Perry" Mason fame would say, "Immaterial, irrelevant, and incompetent, your Honor".

You don't know what is going to happen on Monday (unless you are now part of TSI's legal team) so your statement is merely speculative.

Care to explain how i and everyone of these forums doesn't? Marc has already publicly made this statement via the forums and the teksavvy blog. How exactly is it speculative based on the very statements from the CEO's plans on the matter?

Marc on his transparency with Teksavvy has already said Teksavvy's stance and what they plan to do. There will be no contesting it. They only asked the courts for more time to notify customers. That's it. Monday as per their agreement with the court, they are handing it over.


apvm

join:2003-02-14
London, ON
kudos:1
Like I said, it is $200 a piece and with court order too, I'll screw anyone for $400,000+ anytime anyday. Of course, that's me.

MaynardKrebs
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reply to Tx
said by Tx:

Monday as per their agreement with the court, they are handing it over.

If you aren't privy to backroom discussions or the intimate details of the legal strategy being cast this weekend (or not) then there is nothing more to say about the matter other than the Court may or may not decide in Voltage's favour, and that my friend is the only certainty in this whole process.

TSI isn't tendering anything to Voltage without being ordered by the Court to do so, thus your colourful phrase of "handing it over" is about as accurate as saying the moon is made from a delightful blend of Cambozzola, Swiss, Brie, and Venezuelan Beaver cheeses.


Tx
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No, you made a statement that i do not know what teksavvy is doing. I answered that i do. As do we all. How? This is what Teksavvy is known for. Transparency.

Marc announced it himself. Through the horses mouth. No speculation, no assumptions.

Why are you trying to make that statement more then it is?

Have you read nothing? They already had the motion to disclose handed to them. »www.teksavvy.com/Media/Default/C···tion.pdf

They have already (Marc) said they will not contest it. What does being privy to backroom discussions have to do with anything? That's all this was about. Nothing about what a court may decide.

Maybe i'll simplify it for you. The "colorful" phrase used was in terms of what their original plan they told us customers and the courts they will do January 14th, 2013. Thus handing user information over.

MaynardKrebs
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reply to JohnDoe187

Re: A summary of How Teksavvy has failed it's customers...


On April 7, 2003, two days before Baghdad fell to US forces, "Baghdad Bob" claimed that there were no American troops in Baghdad, and that the Americans were committing suicide by the hundreds at the city's gates. He made this statement while standing on the east bank of the Dijli (Tigris) River in the center of Baghdad. His back was to the river and reporters could see two American Army M1 Abrams tanks behind him on a road on the far side of the river. His last public appearance as Information Minister was on April 8, 2003, when he said that the Americans "are going to surrender or be burned in their tanks. They will surrender, it is they who will surrender".
--- Wikipedia


apvm

join:2003-02-14
London, ON
kudos:1

3 edits
reply to Tx

Re: A summary of How Teksavvy has failed it's customers..

I really don't understand these fan boys. 1st of all, Teksavvy's position is very clear, they will release their customers' information with a court order and they will not contest.

Without contest, it meant they will not even ask if the IP address was just a unlucky draw from a lottery box.

What upset me is although I never won anything more than $10 with all the 649 tickets I purchased but I do not want to end up as one of the winners of their unlucky draw.

I don't make $400,000 out of this mess and I sure don't want to be one paying part of that $400,000 in the future.

One last thing is, I don't care how long an ISP will keep their logs but I care if that ISP will stand up for my privacy and will fight those who're trying to invade it.


Tx
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reply to MaynardKrebs

Re: A summary of How Teksavvy has failed it's customers...

said by MaynardKrebs:

On April 7, 2003, two days before Baghdad fell to US forces, "Baghdad Bob" claimed that there were no American troops in Baghdad, and that the Americans were committing suicide by the hundreds at the city's gates. He made this statement while standing on the east bank of the Dijli (Tigris) River in the center of Baghdad. His back was to the river and reporters could see two American Army M1 Abrams tanks behind him on a road on the far side of the river. His last public appearance as Information Minister was on April 8, 2003, when he said that the Americans "are going to surrender or be burned in their tanks. They will surrender, it is they who will surrender".
--- Wikipedia

What does this have to do with the thread?

MaynardKrebs
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said by Tx:

said by MaynardKrebs:

On April 7, 2003, two days before Baghdad fell to US forces, "Baghdad Bob" claimed that there were no American troops in Baghdad, and that the Americans were committing suicide by the hundreds at the city's gates. He made this statement while standing on the east bank of the Dijli (Tigris) River in the center of Baghdad. His back was to the river and reporters could see two American Army M1 Abrams tanks behind him on a road on the far side of the river. His last public appearance as Information Minister was on April 8, 2003, when he said that the Americans "are going to surrender or be burned in their tanks. They will surrender, it is they who will surrender".
--- Wikipedia

What does this have to do with the thread?

It's allegorical.


Tx
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said by MaynardKrebs:

said by Tx:

said by MaynardKrebs:

On April 7, 2003, two days before Baghdad fell to US forces, "Baghdad Bob" claimed that there were no American troops in Baghdad, and that the Americans were committing suicide by the hundreds at the city's gates. He made this statement while standing on the east bank of the Dijli (Tigris) River in the center of Baghdad. His back was to the river and reporters could see two American Army M1 Abrams tanks behind him on a road on the far side of the river. His last public appearance as Information Minister was on April 8, 2003, when he said that the Americans "are going to surrender or be burned in their tanks. They will surrender, it is they who will surrender".
--- Wikipedia

What does this have to do with the thread?

It's allegorical.

And this answers my post...... how? Actually never mind, I do not need another quote from wiki to answer this.

Voltage

join:2013-01-13
reply to JohnDoe187
what looks good about start? is there something in their TOS (»www.start.ca/about/terms) that makes you think this wont happen with them?


Tx
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said by Voltage:

what looks good about start? is there something in their TOS (»www.start.ca/about/terms) that makes you think this wont happen with them?

I'll let you answer this question yourself. Who is Voltage currently after?

Congrats, you now know why. For a lot of people, it's about sending a message. Doesn't matter what ISP it is.

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
reply to JohnDoe187
Bump...


MyrddinEmrys

join:2011-11-29
Scarborough, ON
reply to Tx
Actually, it's not that simple.

-----

You do get quite emotional, don't you.

prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
reply to JohnDoe187
I try to take a look at each side of the case.

From what i'm reading, I'm not really sure that Tek has grounds to oppose the motion. The motion isn't against tek, it's a motion to the court for to get tek to release the information.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of reasons for someone to oppose this, but the basic premise of this motion is that Voltage is asking the court to issue an order for Tek to release the information. Tek is a 3rd party to the motion. Any arguments that could come up would be weak at best.

example; our logs might be incorrect and we could give out the incorrect information..... That says that they keep crappy records, not really something you want to broadcast.

The 42 that were misinformed, again, a screw up on Teks part. It's tek's responisbility to make sure they info they give out is.

From what i'm seeing, they did what they did for a reason, and that was to allow others such as cippic to intervene. The fact that they cut a deal to allow for more time tells me that had they not done that, the motion would already have been granted and those letters would already be in the mail. Remember, this delay WOULD NOT have happened if they wouldn't have struck the deal. In essence we would already know the outcome of Monday's case 3 weeks ago and by the sounds of it, it would not have been pretty.

Now, Voltage may be a troll, but that doesn't mean they don't have rights to protect their content, no matter how crappy it is. If people are distributing content, they have a right to sue them. That being said, how they identify the uploader is a challenge they'll have to face when it goes to litigation.

The best way Tek is helping their customers is by charging a fee for each IP. As it's been pointed out, it'll cost Voltage money even before they have any information. They'll then have to decide if it's worth their effort to proceed. It's essentially a cock block.

From my point of view, they're doing what they can, while playing by the book, to make sure their customers are treated fairly.

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
reply to apvm
said by apvm:

From now on we have to be careful, downloading a picture for your screen saver, a demo, even browsing a webpage without reading the small print may ended up copyright violation.

While the new law still needs to be sorted out, there's nothing that indicates this sort of activity would ever lead to a copyright claim. the focus will remain on torrents, where more valuable properties (movie, tv, etc) are downloaded and uploaded simultaneously.


Tx
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1 edit
reply to MyrddinEmrys
said by MyrddinEmrys:

Actually, it's not that simple.

-----

You do get quite emotional, don't you.

It's not that simple as to the reasons why customers consider leaving teksavvy? Bud, that's the #1 reason anyone who has threatened so far have said.

Has nothing to do about getting emotional. I've simply answered what most on here that have said they are leaving and their reasons for it.

Please enlighten me what's more "complicated" about leaving TSI lol. If they choose to, they choose to. Yikes that was tough and complicated. You going to say their leaving due to privacy reasons? Give me a break, you'll have those same issues everywhere else too.

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04

1 edit
reply to prairiesky
A opinion is like an asshole, everyone has one. But like I said, i'm repeating what the experts are saying and unless you are an expert your opinion are just that and does not reflect what is correct.


Tx
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reply to prairiesky
curious if you've practised law or if you believe your opinion is more valid then that of a copyright lawyer/expert in thinis feild. I do value your opinion as you're just giving what you think is best, but experts in this field are also questioning their move.

Yes people deserve money for their work, but this company is actually abusing the courts by using them to prepare lawsuit but then demand by means of extortion demanding money privately. They are trolls and for that reason they do not deserve any money. They use this as a new business model and revenue stream.

The mistakes TSI made with 42 was a mistake for that very reason alone nevermind privacy concerns they should be inadmissible in court.

The risk is far too great for an innocent person to go through this

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
Everything above would hopefully be true in a criminal matter, but a 2% error rate on the first pass (which has now been corrected, according to TSI) is probably going to meet the bar for civil action. I hope not, of course. I would also hope that the realization that IP spoofing is a real phenomenon could be brought into play.

However, I suspect the bigger questions are raised in CIPPIC's letter of intention to file a Motion to Intervene...namely:

1) Voltage's total lack of a Bona Fide case for commercial infringement
2) That the public interest is not served by invading the privacy of these 2,000 subscribers and that their privacy rights supersede Voltage's questionable claims
3) That the subscriber is not by any means necessarily the party who allegedly downloaded any copyrighted material, given the widespread use of wireless routers, and
4) That 2,000 Voltage lawsuits would be a vexatious nuisance that would clog the courts to no positive effect.

In short: While I do not believe for a moment that TSI has failed any legal obligations here, I hope CIPPIC and friends blow Voltage out of the water tomorrow. It would be even better if TSI joined in, but we can't count on that now.


Tx
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Know if anyone will be posting updates tomorrow? I'll be out but I'd like to follow off the phone


Selenia
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reply to BigVe
Both ISPs here are slated to spy and play net nanny for the Copyright trolls. It's called 6 strikes. Your advice is sound. Looking like this crap is gonna get real ugly in Canada too. Previously used vpn with my laptop and phone to keep prying eyes from sniffing the air for my traffic and bypass service blocks. Planning on using it on a wider scale now that private companies are spying at the behest of other private companies with no oversight for $$$. I use a host in Romania that keeps no logs and uses Bitcoin. Btw, as to his snide comment, use the option persist-tun with openvpn and it will block all connections upon the rare(for me) vpn disconnect. Btw, I stopped pirating long ago in favor of open source, but still value my privacy and freedom.
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DarkStar33

join:2008-03-27
Toronto, ON

1 recommendation

reply to The Mongoose
said by The Mongoose:

In short: While I do not believe for a moment that TSI has failed any legal obligations here, I hope CIPPIC and friends blow Voltage out of the water tomorrow. It would be even better if TSI joined in, but we can't count on that now.

This.

This is how it should be, TSI should remain neutral and let the people who specialize in protecting the privacy of others do the heavy lifting. The courts recognize CIPPIC as an advisor for the best interest of the public - this is good.

If the courts agree with CIPPIC it sets an excellent legal precedence that essentially prevents any company requesting information without the intention to bring these cases to court.

If they bring you to court, they bring you to court... no service in this country would reject handing over any piece of information when served with a court order.

These forums have gone to absolute shit over the last month regarding issues well outside of the scope of your ISP.
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Voltage

join:2013-01-13
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reply to JohnDoe187
i dont mean to lower the level of discussion or anything, but i just got into this. i am under the impression even if there was copyright infringement, we would get warnings/notices from the ISP BEFORE all this court stuff.

is that not what the new copyright laws say? (as well as the limit cap, which Voltage is going FAR over btw.....)

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to John Doe 188
said by John Doe 188 :

I don't see why you and others around here participating in downloading copywrited works thinks Teksavvy should defend/hide you.

If you value the movies and music then pay for them. Don't steal from the people who created them then expect someone else to pay $$ to defend/hide you.

Teksavvy hasn't failed me as a customer as I pay them for internet and they provide it at a very competitive price.

Mind you I don't steal.

and mind you A) you have no proof the parent poster took anything and ill add copying a file is not theft , never has been and for you to call me that copies files and have since i was 12 ( that is how computers work after all ) a thief , you better smarten up with legal people about here you need to get told that slander and defamation of character is actually a crime....

I'm not one of hte named and i can see serious legal problems with this case and im not a lawyer...this puts so much risk on using the internet that a lot a people will probably start shutting it off and ending the economy as you know it.

I see voltage as they really are economic terrorists and you can take me to court and ill justify this opinion.
I even see todays copyright as such. Every dollar taken by labels today is removed from the economy for the bragging rights of SEE IM MORE RICH THEN YOU....not for advancing society.

you also need ot understand what public domain is and that copyrights were origianlly created to give an artist or creator or inventor enough funds to do more. IF you have no intent on making more you should not get any more!!!!

take take take thats all you wanna do.
and dare i say it should i pay for a video game take it home and then find out it dont work and then cant get a refund?
What if it makes my PC hackable cause of its drm. OR degrades my pc on that same reason?

and you realize that with bryce 7.1 , and a few things from that same company on the cheap i dont need actors to create movies that are very near realistic looking.
imagine a unity liscense at 1500 bucks and i can make hundreds of games and put up a donation button and i bet ill have that 1500 back and guess what no lawyers , no need a copyrights , no need of your greedy sick kind.

YOU SEE YOUR TIME IS ENDING NO MATTER WHAT YOU TRY.