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The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
reply to apvm

Re: A summary of How Teksavvy has failed it's customers...

said by apvm:

From now on we have to be careful, downloading a picture for your screen saver, a demo, even browsing a webpage without reading the small print may ended up copyright violation.

While the new law still needs to be sorted out, there's nothing that indicates this sort of activity would ever lead to a copyright claim. the focus will remain on torrents, where more valuable properties (movie, tv, etc) are downloaded and uploaded simultaneously.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

1 edit
reply to MyrddinEmrys

said by MyrddinEmrys:

Actually, it's not that simple.

-----

You do get quite emotional, don't you.

It's not that simple as to the reasons why customers consider leaving teksavvy? Bud, that's the #1 reason anyone who has threatened so far have said.

Has nothing to do about getting emotional. I've simply answered what most on here that have said they are leaving and their reasons for it.

Please enlighten me what's more "complicated" about leaving TSI lol. If they choose to, they choose to. Yikes that was tough and complicated. You going to say their leaving due to privacy reasons? Give me a break, you'll have those same issues everywhere else too.

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04

1 edit
reply to prairiesky

A opinion is like an asshole, everyone has one. But like I said, i'm repeating what the experts are saying and unless you are an expert your opinion are just that and does not reflect what is correct.



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to prairiesky

curious if you've practised law or if you believe your opinion is more valid then that of a copyright lawyer/expert in thinis feild. I do value your opinion as you're just giving what you think is best, but experts in this field are also questioning their move.

Yes people deserve money for their work, but this company is actually abusing the courts by using them to prepare lawsuit but then demand by means of extortion demanding money privately. They are trolls and for that reason they do not deserve any money. They use this as a new business model and revenue stream.

The mistakes TSI made with 42 was a mistake for that very reason alone nevermind privacy concerns they should be inadmissible in court.

The risk is far too great for an innocent person to go through this


The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON

Everything above would hopefully be true in a criminal matter, but a 2% error rate on the first pass (which has now been corrected, according to TSI) is probably going to meet the bar for civil action. I hope not, of course. I would also hope that the realization that IP spoofing is a real phenomenon could be brought into play.

However, I suspect the bigger questions are raised in CIPPIC's letter of intention to file a Motion to Intervene...namely:

1) Voltage's total lack of a Bona Fide case for commercial infringement
2) That the public interest is not served by invading the privacy of these 2,000 subscribers and that their privacy rights supersede Voltage's questionable claims
3) That the subscriber is not by any means necessarily the party who allegedly downloaded any copyrighted material, given the widespread use of wireless routers, and
4) That 2,000 Voltage lawsuits would be a vexatious nuisance that would clog the courts to no positive effect.

In short: While I do not believe for a moment that TSI has failed any legal obligations here, I hope CIPPIC and friends blow Voltage out of the water tomorrow. It would be even better if TSI joined in, but we can't count on that now.



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12

Know if anyone will be posting updates tomorrow? I'll be out but I'd like to follow off the phone



Selenia
I love Debian
Premium
join:2006-09-22
Fort Smith, AR
kudos:2
reply to BigVe

Both ISPs here are slated to spy and play net nanny for the Copyright trolls. It's called 6 strikes. Your advice is sound. Looking like this crap is gonna get real ugly in Canada too. Previously used vpn with my laptop and phone to keep prying eyes from sniffing the air for my traffic and bypass service blocks. Planning on using it on a wider scale now that private companies are spying at the behest of other private companies with no oversight for $$$. I use a host in Romania that keeps no logs and uses Bitcoin. Btw, as to his snide comment, use the option persist-tun with openvpn and it will block all connections upon the rare(for me) vpn disconnect. Btw, I stopped pirating long ago in favor of open source, but still value my privacy and freedom.
--
A fool thinks they know everything.

A wise person knows enough to know they couldn't possibly know everything.

There are zealots for every OS, like every religion. They do not represent the majority of users for either.



DarkStar33

join:2008-03-27
Toronto, ON

1 recommendation

reply to The Mongoose

said by The Mongoose:

In short: While I do not believe for a moment that TSI has failed any legal obligations here, I hope CIPPIC and friends blow Voltage out of the water tomorrow. It would be even better if TSI joined in, but we can't count on that now.

This.

This is how it should be, TSI should remain neutral and let the people who specialize in protecting the privacy of others do the heavy lifting. The courts recognize CIPPIC as an advisor for the best interest of the public - this is good.

If the courts agree with CIPPIC it sets an excellent legal precedence that essentially prevents any company requesting information without the intention to bring these cases to court.

If they bring you to court, they bring you to court... no service in this country would reject handing over any piece of information when served with a court order.

These forums have gone to absolute shit over the last month regarding issues well outside of the scope of your ISP.
--
TekSavvy Extreme Cable Pro (Toronto, ON)
»www.speedtest.net/result/1343900371.png

Voltage

join:2013-01-13
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to JohnDoe187

i dont mean to lower the level of discussion or anything, but i just got into this. i am under the impression even if there was copyright infringement, we would get warnings/notices from the ISP BEFORE all this court stuff.

is that not what the new copyright laws say? (as well as the limit cap, which Voltage is going FAR over btw.....)


funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to John Doe 188

said by John Doe 188 :

I don't see why you and others around here participating in downloading copywrited works thinks Teksavvy should defend/hide you.

If you value the movies and music then pay for them. Don't steal from the people who created them then expect someone else to pay $$ to defend/hide you.

Teksavvy hasn't failed me as a customer as I pay them for internet and they provide it at a very competitive price.

Mind you I don't steal.

and mind you A) you have no proof the parent poster took anything and ill add copying a file is not theft , never has been and for you to call me that copies files and have since i was 12 ( that is how computers work after all ) a thief , you better smarten up with legal people about here you need to get told that slander and defamation of character is actually a crime....

I'm not one of hte named and i can see serious legal problems with this case and im not a lawyer...this puts so much risk on using the internet that a lot a people will probably start shutting it off and ending the economy as you know it.

I see voltage as they really are economic terrorists and you can take me to court and ill justify this opinion.
I even see todays copyright as such. Every dollar taken by labels today is removed from the economy for the bragging rights of SEE IM MORE RICH THEN YOU....not for advancing society.

you also need ot understand what public domain is and that copyrights were origianlly created to give an artist or creator or inventor enough funds to do more. IF you have no intent on making more you should not get any more!!!!

take take take thats all you wanna do.
and dare i say it should i pay for a video game take it home and then find out it dont work and then cant get a refund?
What if it makes my PC hackable cause of its drm. OR degrades my pc on that same reason?

and you realize that with bryce 7.1 , and a few things from that same company on the cheap i dont need actors to create movies that are very near realistic looking.
imagine a unity liscense at 1500 bucks and i can make hundreds of games and put up a donation button and i bet ill have that 1500 back and guess what no lawyers , no need a copyrights , no need of your greedy sick kind.

YOU SEE YOUR TIME IS ENDING NO MATTER WHAT YOU TRY.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to Gimli

said by Gimli:

said by John Doe 188 :

I don't see why you and others around here participating in downloading copywrited works thinks Teksavvy should defend/hide you.

If you value the movies and music then pay for them. Don't steal from the people who created them then expect someone else to pay $$ to defend/hide you.

Teksavvy hasn't failed me as a customer as I pay them for internet and they provide it at a very competitive price.

Mind you I don't steal.

You miss the entire point of the article and situation.

TSI should not and cannot defend anyone of Copyright infringement, they have no proof, evidence or right to.

On the same token, Voltage also has no concrete evidence or proof to of Commercial copyright infringement, or more importantly ...ANY PROOF that a person associated with a ISP internet account was the person associated with a 3rd party scan of a torrent Swarm.

For this reason alone, TSI SHOULD be fighting for its Customer PRIVACY rights. I was under the impression that this would be the case...

Marc , without a long winded, legally checked and re checked , informal statement, will TSI be fighting to protect its Customers Privacy come Jan 14 and beyond if necessary.

In my opinion, TSI has every right to fight to protect their Customers privacy, especially against a clearly defunk company that has made copyright trolling an established revenue stream ( if not the only revenue stream ) for its business.

Please keep in mind that TSI is the only one named in the current proceeding to reveal Customer Data........

this is about a privacy act to protect citizens of canada and there data and information from predatory uses. Ask yourself why did voltage after finally getting data from bell drop the case?

Also in siting the above case law one also needs to understand the rule of said law has changed dramatically.

and this is easy to show in court
you get 5 people 1 dressed up like a girl and all wearing masks that completely cover there faces
put one of the offending ips on there front sweater
and say can you tell which is fred
( and have fred the one thats actually dressed up in a skirt )
then you can say and thus sir you cannot reasonably tell me any ip address can be said to be without reasonable doubt one is doing anything.
AINT law grand....

cause thats how it is police need a warrant to enter a specific room in a rooming house they dont just get one warrant and search the whole house.

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
reply to Voltage

said by Voltage:

i dont mean to lower the level of discussion or anything, but i just got into this. i am under the impression even if there was copyright infringement, we would get warnings/notices from the ISP BEFORE all this court stuff.

is that not what the new copyright laws say? (as well as the limit cap, which Voltage is going FAR over btw.....)

That's not lowering the level of discussion, those are valid questions.

My understanding is there is no legal requirement for notification. TSI got the time to notify everyone affected in exchange for a promise not to oppose Voltage's motion for a court order. In the future, other ISPs might choose to fight such a motion, but if they lose and such an order is issued, those named won't find out until after their privacy has been violated.

As for the cap, Voltage is trying to sue under the commercial statute, which has caps far exceeding the $5,000 limit for non-commercial infringement. To do this, however, they would have to show that the defendant(s) intended to profit financially from the sale of the stolen works. This is ludicrous, of course, but Voltage's strategy is to extort money through threatening letters, not through actual lawsuits. The higher the threat, the easier the extortion. This will likely be a key point of attack in tomorrow's hearing if CIPPIC is granted intervenor status.


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

quote:
Voltage's strategy is to extort money through threatening letters, not through actual lawsuits.
^ This ^

And to do that they need to scare the living 5#17 outa you first!
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca


TraderOne

@teksavvy.com
reply to The Mongoose

said by The Mongoose:

That's not lowering the level of discussion, those are valid questions.

My understanding is there is no legal requirement for notification. TSI got the time to notify everyone affected in exchange for a promise not to oppose Voltage's motion for a court order. In the future, other ISPs might choose to fight such a motion, but if they lose and such an order is issued, those named won't find out until after their privacy has been violated.

Where do you get this info about "In the future, other ISPs might choose to fight such a motion, but if they lose and such an order is issued, those named won't find out until after their privacy has been violated." ?

Can you fight such a motion and notify your customers at the same time ?

Voltage

join:2013-01-13
Reviews:
·VMedia
reply to The Mongoose

said by The Mongoose:

said by Voltage:

i dont mean to lower the level of discussion or anything, but i just got into this. i am under the impression even if there was copyright infringement, we would get warnings/notices from the ISP BEFORE all this court stuff.

is that not what the new copyright laws say? (as well as the limit cap, which Voltage is going FAR over btw.....)

That's not lowering the level of discussion, those are valid questions.

My understanding is there is no legal requirement for notification. TSI got the time to notify everyone affected in exchange for a promise not to oppose Voltage's motion for a court order. In the future, other ISPs might choose to fight such a motion, but if they lose and such an order is issued, those named won't find out until after their privacy has been violated.

As for the cap, Voltage is trying to sue under the commercial statute, which has caps far exceeding the $5,000 limit for non-commercial infringement. To do this, however, they would have to show that the defendant(s) intended to profit financially from the sale of the stolen works. This is ludicrous, of course, but Voltage's strategy is to extort money through threatening letters, not through actual lawsuits. The higher the threat, the easier the extortion. This will likely be a key point of attack in tomorrow's hearing if CIPPIC is granted intervenor status.

oh so customers dont get warnings before all this legal action? that sucks. even draconian US laws are giving some 6 strike system or w/e. but Canadians can just get blindsided like this?

Voltage

join:2013-01-13
reply to The Mongoose

dp/mybad


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to Voltage

said by Voltage:

i dont mean to lower the level of discussion or anything, but i just got into this. i am under the impression even if there was copyright infringement, we would get warnings/notices from the ISP BEFORE all this court stuff.

is that not what the new copyright laws say? (as well as the limit cap, which Voltage is going FAR over btw.....)

Our new copyright law needs to have regulations attached to it. We have the law itself (about 6 months ago), but the regulations have yet to be published. The notice-and-notice part is supposed (we hope) to be in the accompanying regulations. So insofar as the action in court today, we're operating in a twilight zone as far as the *whole* law/regulation thing is concerned.

Voltage

join:2013-01-13

imo, it looks like Voltage is trying to take advantage of that technicality. just to get money. in doing so, blatantly flying in the face of Canadian law and what it intended...i am even more astonished by this entire issue.



AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
reply to JohnDoe187

Following feed... TSI giving Voltage the straight arm... lol


Dunlop

join:2011-07-13
kudos:2

yeah following it on Twitter, better than a TV drama ; )


MFido

join:2012-10-19
kudos:2

a telenovela with Canadian flavor


Bugblndr

join:2010-03-02
Burlington, ON
reply to JohnDoe187

Adjournment granted. It seems to me that TekSavvy fought pretty hard for the privacy of their customers.


MFido

join:2012-10-19
kudos:2

after following all the tweets ... agree with you 100%


The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON

Yup. TSI might not be technically "opposing" the motion but they're doing everything they can to enable CIPPIC and make Voltage's life miserable and expensive. Adjournment is definitely good news, as is the judge's statement that unopposed motions are dangerous. Sounds like CIPPIC will get a fair crack at this.


Voltage

join:2013-01-13
reply to JohnDoe187

i agree. i didnt feel let down by teksavvy at all.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to JohnDoe187

Unless I'm reading this wrong, TekSavvy did raise in court the issues with the validity of Voltage's evidence. At this point you could say pretty conclusively that TekSavvy is opposing the motion, despite their earlier statement that they would not.

I'm note sure why they've changed their minds. Perhaps due to the public pressure they've been getting over this, perhaps they looked deeper into it and realized how flimsy Voltage's request is, perhaps they're worried that the motion being granted would be a slippery slope situation or invite other trolls to do the same?
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
reply to JohnDoe187

It would be a slippery slope for them to all of a sudden oppose it. It would open them up to breach of contract. As I mentioned way back when, they can still express their concerns and support an adjournment without opposing the motion.

It's sort of what I expected to happen which was for them to run interference without getting involved and opening them up to lawsuits from voltage.


The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
reply to Guspaz

I'm not sure about this Gus, but I think perhaps there is a technical definition of "opposing" a motion (ie you have to declare your opposition to the court). It seems that TSI hasn't done this since the judge did mention that the motion is unopposed. But yes, they are definitely putting up walls designed to slow Voltage down and prevent or at least delay the release of customer information.


MFido

join:2012-10-19
kudos:2
reply to JohnDoe187

Should the title of this discussion be changed?

Suggestion: "A long passionate story of how Teksavvy is doing their best to protect it's customers"


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

said by MFido:

Should the title of this discussion be changed?

Suggestion: "A long passionate story of how Teksavvy is doing their best to protect it's customers"

"A long passionate story of how Teksavvy is doing their best to protect it's customers, including Notice-and-Notice where it isn't actually in the full legislation yet, the taking on of the nasty Troll of Hollywood, and how Marc looks hot in tights (or so I've been told)"