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Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to MFido

Re: A summary of How Teksavvy has failed it's customers...

said by MFido:

said by m3chen:

BTW I'm not a lawyer

... so why are you thinking you know better than their lawyer what they should do?

If i commit murder my lawyer will also advise me just the same lol. is this really how small minded people are these days. Do you honestly not have a clue what is on the line in Canada right now?

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
reply to morisato
Don't worry I will be, it seems I can get a cheaper and faster deal with start.ca. No point to stay if this is truly TSI's path, I had been a loyal customer for 4 years.


apvm

join:2003-02-14
London, ON
kudos:1
reply to The Mongoose
From now on we have to be careful, downloading a picture for your screen saver, a demo, even browsing a webpage without reading the small print may ended up copyright violation.

Remember the energy scam cheque with a small print on its back?

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
reply to Atticka
...

JonyBelGeul
Premium
join:2008-07-31
reply to JohnDoe187
Motion to disclose TSI customer information is a direct challenge to the privacy agreement between TSI and its customers. But more specifically, it's a direct challenge to TSI's duty in upholding TSI's part of the privacy agreement, which is to protect its customers' information according to the conditions outlined therein.

TSI chose not to fulfill their duty by agreeing to not oppose the motion to disclose. The reason for this is to give notice and time to TSI customers, so they can seek legal counsel if need be. A direct consequence of TSI's decision is that if TSI customers decide to oppose motion to disclose, then TSI customers are in fact fulfilling TSI's duty in upholding TSI's part of the privacy agreement, at their own costs. A subsequent consequence of TSI's decision is that TSI gets free legal representation by their own customers, at the costs of their own customers.

Since when do ISP's rely on their customers to uphold ISP's part of the privacy agreement?

Yes, we have a privacy agreement. It says if there's a motion to disclose your personal information, then you must spend your money to make sure our part of the agreement is fulfilled.
--
My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.

zinc
Premium
join:2004-02-17
Kitchener, ON
To be fair to TSI, all their legal agreements with us customers says that if there's a court order, then they will comply. They do not say that they will take extreme measures to protect our privacy. And to date, there hasn't been a court order so nobody has any of our information.

It's really up to the court, I haven't seen any of the details, but if Voltage's evidence is as shabby as it has been described, then the court shouldn't be ordering TSI to disclose customer information. It's not up to TSI to decide that Voltage's evidence is crap.

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
reply to JonyBelGeul
Exactly TSI wants the acussed to fight their battle... Voltage is not challenging the accused with the motion but TSI to hand over private information base on hearsay. As pointed out by the various experts its very puzzling to them why TSI has taken the stance they have and even made it clear Voltage's motion is nothing more than hearsay and a easy win for TSI. I just don't understand TSI's decision and I get we don't really get any say in it or maybe not even an explanation but it just seems to me and from the info on the experts it's a BAD decision on TSI's part. Oh well we will see Monday and the consequences it leaves. I for one am stopping my service is all TSI has is lip service.

BigVe

join:2005-07-15
Gulliver, MI
Quit whining and use VPN & a Seedbox/server that will take care of (most) of your problems.Hard to understand why so many Teksavvy customers blame them for your own piracy.Grow up and get on with life

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
You are the cause of the problem, no one is condoning pirating software or movies but yourself... We are discussing a privacy issue. I will grow up when you get yourself a education... Fair?

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
reply to BigVe
I hope your VPN drops and your TSI connection is exposed while you are pirating. Have fun fool.

JonyBelGeul
Premium
join:2008-07-31
reply to zinc
said by zinc:

To be fair to TSI, all their legal agreements with us customers says that if there's a court order, then they will comply. They do not say that they will take extreme measures to protect our privacy. And to date, there hasn't been a court order so nobody has any of our information.

It's really up to the court, I haven't seen any of the details, but if Voltage's evidence is as shabby as it has been described, then the court shouldn't be ordering TSI to disclose customer information. It's not up to TSI to decide that Voltage's evidence is crap.

It's not up to the court to cross-examine Voltage's motion to disclose. It's not the court's duty to do this. It's the defendant's duty to cross-examine the motion. In fact, without opposition, the court has no choice but to grant the motion as is.

Upholding one's part of a privacy agreement by cross-examining a third party's motion to disclose is not extreme measures. It's an integral part of one's duty according to the conditions set forth by the agreement.

Furthermore, a motion to disclose is not a court order.

To be fair to TSI, of course.
--
My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.


Atticka

join:2001-11-26
Montreal, QC
reply to JohnDoe187
said by JohnDoe187:

I hope your VPN drops and your TSI connection is exposed while you are pirating. Have fun fool.

Why do you constantly have the need to throw insults around? This is unwarranted, say your peace and move on.

Throwing insults, no matter how justified you feel in doing so, only serves to degrade your own credibility.


apvm

join:2003-02-14
London, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to JonyBelGeul
said by JonyBelGeul:

said by zinc:

To be fair to TSI, all their legal agreements with us customers says that if there's a court order, then they will comply. They do not say that they will take extreme measures to protect our privacy. And to date, there hasn't been a court order so nobody has any of our information.

It's really up to the court, I haven't seen any of the details, but if Voltage's evidence is as shabby as it has been described, then the court shouldn't be ordering TSI to disclose customer information. It's not up to TSI to decide that Voltage's evidence is crap.

It's not up to the court to cross-examine Voltage's motion to disclose. It's not the court's duty to do this. It's the defendant's duty to cross-examine the motion. In fact, without opposition, the court has no choice but to grant the motion as is.

Upholding one's part of a privacy agreement by cross-examining a third party's motion to disclose is not extreme measures. It's an integral part of one's duty according to the conditions set forth by the agreement.

Furthermore, a motion to disclose is not a court order.

To be fair to TSI, of course.

+1

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
reply to Atticka
Why do you feel the need intervene? Plus I don't expect anyone to take my word as I am not a lawyer or an expert... I'm just repeating what they are saying.

m3chen

join:2009-12-03
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to zinc
@zinc:

Here's a thread I started a few weeks ago that explains what exactly TSI's legal obligations are with respect to our privacy:

»Re: Teksavvy and PIPEDA

Here's a snippet of my biggest problem with what is going on:

PIPEDA requires private-sector organizations to collect, use or disclose your personal information by fair and lawful means, with your consent, and only for purposes that are stated and reasonable.

They’re also obliged to protect your personal information through appropriate security measures, and to destroy it when it’s no longer needed for the original purposes.


Even with their TOS; they are obliged to protect your private information in PIPEDA and destroy their IP logs when they are no longer needed for their original and intended purpose (unless hidden somewhere in their TOS is that the intended purpose of IP logs is to allow third parties like Voltage to sue you). This is the point where you would want to consult a lawyer on whether or not TSI will be forced to live up to their privacy obligations. JMJimmy (one of the people named in the lawsuit) believe case law is against user on this one, but his case specifically points to a criminal case involving child pornography and law enforcement.

zinc
Premium
join:2004-02-17
Kitchener, ON
reply to apvm
I guess I'm a bit lacking in understanding of everything.

So in this case, since TSI has stated they won't oppose it, perhaps we as customers should be taking TSI to court to enforce our privacy agreement with them and prevent the disclosure?

JonyBelGeul
Premium
join:2008-07-31
reply to JohnDoe187
I was a bit sarcastic in my last comment.

Seriously, to be fair to TSI, they've been good to me right up to this motion to disclose. To set the record straight, I didn't receive a notice email about the motion. However, this thing is huge, big, giant, humongus. It's about privacy for cheriss' sake. It's fundamental. It affects every gundam Canadian with an intarweb. It's not like TSI hiked the prices across the board by a couple bucks. We were pissed when they did that, weren't we? Yes, we were. But we pointed out just how many other ways TSI did the right thing by us. And we were right. TSI did right by us at every step, from low prices, to high quality services, to special services like MLPPP to bypass Bell's throttle (and that was huge all by itself), to fighting UBB/AVP and all that crap. It was like the little guys helping the other little guys.

But this thing, it's a ge-new-wine mistake. Set this thing straight gundamit.
--
My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.


Atticka

join:2001-11-26
Montreal, QC
reply to JohnDoe187
said by JohnDoe187:

Why do you feel the need intervene? Plus I don't expect anyone to take my word as I am not a lawyer or an expert... I'm just repeating what they are saying.

Its a new years resolution, I'm intervening because I can and I care.

If you want people to listen to you (I'm assuming that's your intent, otherwise we have no reason to be posting here), resorting to name calling is the last thing you should do. Calling someone a "fool" shows a lack of tact and will only serve to discredit your comments in general.


Atticka

join:2001-11-26
Montreal, QC
reply to JonyBelGeul
said by JonyBelGeul:

I was a bit sarcastic in my last comment.

Seriously, to be fair to TSI, they've been good to me right up to this motion to disclose. To set the record straight, I didn't receive a notice email about the motion. However, this thing is huge, big, giant, humongus. It's about privacy for cheriss' sake. It's fundamental. It affects every gundam Canadian with an intarweb. It's not like TSI hiked the prices across the board by a couple bucks. We were pissed when they did that, weren't we? Yes, we were. But we pointed out just how many other ways TSI did the right thing by us. And we were right. TSI did right by us at every step, from low prices, to high quality services, to special services like MLPPP to bypass Bell's throttle (and that was huge all by itself), to fighting UBB/AVP and all that crap. It was like the little guys helping the other little guys.

But this thing, it's a ge-new-wine mistake. Set this thing straight gundamit.

You make an excellent point!

But, lets take a step back and compare Teksavvy's past actions to this current issue.

Previously Teksavvy has fought for whats right for internet service and its customers.
-UBB\AVP
-Throttling\MLPPP
-CAPS

These are all technical in nature, specifically to do with internet service.

Now this, Copyright and privacy. This is not what Teksavvy is in business for, they have no reason for being pro or against Copyright notices and a decision either way does not affect their business model.

Privacy is a sticky situation, its a massive fight, much bigger than UBB or throttling that has MUCH wider consequences across Canada. I don't think Teksavvy has the resource or the fortitude to fight this fight, as a result they have backed down.

BigVe

join:2005-07-15
Gulliver, MI
reply to JohnDoe187
Privacy, Pirating....in your case it all boils out to same answer.By the way... I was just suggesting something that would maybe help You out in the future.Call me a fool if you like but in this case you are THE Fool


Atticka

join:2001-11-26
Montreal, QC

1 recommendation

said by BigVe:

Privacy, Pirating....in your case it all boils out to same answer.By the way... I was just suggesting something that would maybe help You out in the future.Call me a fool if you like but in this case you are THE Fool

C'mon now, lets not resort to school yard antics. Name calling resolves nothing.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to BigVe
said by BigVe:

Quit whining and use VPN & a Seedbox/server that will take care of (most) of your problems.Hard to understand why so many Teksavvy customers blame them for your own piracy.Grow up and get on with life

And the 42 mistakenly notified must be pirates since afterall they were notifiedof their activities. Those mistakenly 42 could be none next tine or maybe 300. As long as they use a seedbox right

m3chen

join:2009-12-03
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to zinc
@Zinc:

In this case, TSI is wading into dangerous territory with their decision to not oppose. The real can of warms is when TSI has to obligation to PIPEDA and does something that violates it (i.e giving information away without consent). This gets even more slippery since the data being requested is definitely intended not for the purpose of legal remedy by third parties and is not mandated by law to be retained for that purpose. If you were one of the 2000, I would have consulted a lawyer and gone the route of seeing if you were being wronged by TSI's motion to not oppose / filing a complaint against them for not doing their due diligence with respect to PIPEDA.

JonyBelGeul
Premium
join:2008-07-31
reply to Atticka
said by Atticka:

Now this, Copyright and privacy. This is not what Teksavvy is in business for, they have no reason for being pro or against Copyright notices and a decision either way does not affect their business model.

Privacy is a sticky situation, its a massive fight, much bigger than UBB or throttling that has MUCH wider consequences across Canada. I don't think Teksavvy has the resource or the fortitude to fight this fight, as a result they have backed down.

You're right. TSI isn't in the business of protecting every Canadian's privacy. It's not their job, and I don't expect them to do that. But it is their business to protect their customers' privacy, according to the conditions set forth by the privacy agreement. I'm a TSI customer, and I'd like it if TSI protected my privacy.

Whatever comes Monday, what's done is done. No use crying about that. But now that all the arguments have been said, it's clear that TSI's decision was a mistake. In a way, the fact that Voltage only asked for 2,300 names as a test of the new laws is a good thing for TSI. It means if there's backlash for TSI, it's going to be limited to those 2,300 people. Imagine if Voltage had asked for every IP's they collected, and TSI made the same decision they did here. Backlash for that kind of volume would have meant outright bankruptcy literally. No option to do different in the future. But now, TSI has the option to do different in the future, if there's a follow-up motion by Voltage for the rest of the collected IP's, or by any other troll. Then, TSI can finally set this thing straight.
--
My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.

m3chen

join:2009-12-03
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to BigVe
I'll play the part of the polite Canadian and say the following;

BigVe,

Please don't take offense to people being offended to your post. It was a little offensive / accusatory to those you intentionally or unintentionally offended. I highly recommend you read about why people are so angry about their rights being violated and how this really has nothing to do with piracy. Pirates will also find a way to pirate things but even a pirate has basic legal rights that must be observed by all parties seeking to bring them to court.


Atticka

join:2001-11-26
Montreal, QC
reply to Tx
I think we can all agree, Voltage is the copyright troll starting this mess in the first place.

Rather than raging against TSI we should be focusing our efforts on Voltage and their missuse of our court system. Who let them in the country in the first place? How do we stop them from trolling fellow citizens?


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
said by Atticka:

I think we can all agree, Voltage is the copyright troll starting this mess in the first place.

Rather than raging against TSI we should be focusing our efforts on Voltage and their missuse of our court system. Who let them in the country in the first place? How do we stop them from trolling fellow citizens?

Problem is things in this country move so slow that how many people will now have to defend themselves. This was only a motion to disclose. It should have been challanged. Truly innocent people will now have to hire a lawyer.

We shouldnt need a rainy day fund incase if you really are innocent get extortion letters

JonyBelGeul
Premium
join:2008-07-31
reply to JohnDoe187
One last point about TSI's decision and their reasons for it.

The reason TSI gave for their decision was to give its customers time to prepare for the motion to disclose. Doesn't make sense. Like I said, it's not TSI's customers' duty to uphold TSI's part of the privacy agreement by opposing the motion to disclose. So why give us time to prepare? Doesn't make sense. If motion to disclose is granted to Voltage, then all names cited will get notified by Voltage, and they'll have time to prepare. It's not like once the "pay-or-else" notices go out to all those people, it's for the very next day or something like that. And it's not like if those people refuse to pay, they'll have to present themselves in court the very next day. They'll have time to prepare no matter what decision TSI makes. And TSI could have sent notices to all their cited customers anyway, for whatever good that would have done, and still opposed the motion. It's not like TSI was prevented from sending out notices to their customers.
--
My blog. Wanna Git My Ball on Blogspot.


Atticka

join:2001-11-26
Montreal, QC
reply to Tx
said by Tx:

said by Atticka:

I think we can all agree, Voltage is the copyright troll starting this mess in the first place.

Rather than raging against TSI we should be focusing our efforts on Voltage and their missuse of our court system. Who let them in the country in the first place? How do we stop them from trolling fellow citizens?

Problem is things in this country move so slow that how many people will now have to defend themselves. This was only a motion to disclose. It should have been challanged. Truly innocent people will now have to hire a lawyer.

We shouldnt need a rainy day fund incase if you really are innocent get extortion letters

I completely agree, there is no reason an innocent should be forced in to court to defend themselves. Unfortunately this happens often and why we award court fees to the wrongfully accused (and acquitted).

Hopefully it won't come to this, but I believe it will.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to m3chen
said by m3chen:

Giving away data without making damn sure that those accused actually did the deed is going to be something that will come back to haunt TSI and their existing customer base.

And just how would TSI know THAT unless they logged every site you went to and instituted an ALL-DPI all-the-time regime??

Be careful what you wish for.