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Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN
reply to OHN

Re: Salary Research for Negotiation

said by OHN:

No certifications. Highest level is high school. I have on the job training.

I'm going to tell you what you don't want to hear. The lack of a college degree is why you are paid less. This is the same issue I have.

The company I work for requires a degree for the position I was working as a contractor. When they decided to hire me and found out I didn't have a degree (or more accurately no college eduction) I was hired in a lower position. As my brother put it, they would rather have a two year degree rather than 15 years of experience.

I have since started college and was promoted to the position as I am working on a degree. I'm not rushing to get it, one class a semester, but it is what they want.
--
“Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.” ¯ Robert A. Heinlein


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com

This would make sense if his peer had a college degree and certs. According to the OP, his peer doesn't have those things. You are right though. I have seen many talented people who are not paid as much if you don't have the sheepskin or the certifications to backup your knowledge. I know a very talented network and support engineer who hasn't made over 50k in his career because he has no certs or degree and with 10 years of experience. These days, its just too easy to find someone with 10 years of experience with a degree and certs and pay them more.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net



Modus
I hate smartassery on forums
Premium
join:2005-05-02
us

1 edit

said by Nightfall:

These days, its just too easy to find someone with 10 years of experience with a degree and certs and pay them more.

I tell you for a fact that this doesn't apply where i am and may be the same in other areas
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com

said by Modus:

said by Nightfall:

These days, its just too easy to find someone with 10 years of experience with a degree and certs and pay them more.

I tell you for a fact that this doesn't apply where i am and may be the same in other areas

Depends on your location I guess. In most major cities, there are a lot of talented IT people out there. I know when we were looking for a Network Admin, we got hit with a bunch of resumes. The top 3 candidates selected all had 5+ years experience, a 4 year degree in IT, and certifications ranging from MCP, CCNA, and MCITP. We easily bypassed people with the same experience with no degree or no certs.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


Modus
I hate smartassery on forums
Premium
join:2005-05-02
us

said by Nightfall:

said by Modus:

said by Nightfall:

These days, its just too easy to find someone with 10 years of experience with a degree and certs and pay them more.

I tell you for a fact that this doesn't apply where i am and may be the same in other areas

Depends on your location I guess. In most major cities, there are a lot of talented IT people out there. I know when we were looking for a Network Admin, we got hit with a bunch of resumes. The top 3 candidates selected all had 5+ years experience, a 4 year degree in IT, and certifications ranging from MCP, CCNA, and MCITP. We easily bypassed people with the same experience with no degree or no certs.

I'm in a major city and recently just went through the same thing but i found that in our case those resumes looked great but once those people were bought in for interviews the knowledge level didn't match what was on the resume.
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!

OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1
reply to Nightfall

With all do respect, I have worked on many occasions with people that have these certificates and have come to found out it does not necessarily indicate they know what they are doing. I do however recognize it would not hurt me to get them. That may be something for me to shoot for in the future.


Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1

said by OHN:

With all do respect, I have worked on many occasions with people that have these certificates and have come to found out it does not necessarily indicate they know what they are doing. I do however recognize it would not hurt me to get them. That may be something for me to shoot for in the future.

It matters to the hiring people. That's the only reason why a lot of IT people have any certifications at all.

OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

I agree with you. That is how it is in general. My point though is that if someone is afforded the opportunity and gains the real world experiance, that does account for something. In my case I am confident it is not related to the lack of certifications. It is more due to lack of understanding of my manager. I will make it one of my goals to obtain the certifications at least. Having them and real world experiance should make me an even stronger candidate.



Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

In the real world things like hiring and salary increase decisions do not depend solely on "hard" attributes like qualifications and experience; there is also the "soft" traits such as likeability, personality, etc. Could be your management just likes her more than you. Could be she is more sociable, "shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed more, which leads to a more favorable impression, and so on.

As is often the case, your contributions on the tech side prevent problems from reaching upper management, if they are even noticed at all. Your work is thus under their radar. This is a potential pitfall in organizations that do not know how much a good tech saves them. They can't appreciate what they are not aware of.



Modus
I hate smartassery on forums
Premium
join:2005-05-02
us

said by Wily_One:

In the real world things like hiring and salary increase decisions do not depend solely on "hard" attributes like qualifications and experience; there is also the "soft" traits such as likeability, personality, etc. Could be your management just likes her more than you. Could be she is more sociable, "shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed more, which leads to a more favorable impression, and so on.

+1 this something that never gets mentioned but behind closed doors it comes during the conversation. We had to fill a opening for finance director and one of the candidates was the assistant finance director, long story short she didn't get the job because the lack of soft skills.
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Wily_One

said by Wily_One:

"shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed

is that what they are calling it these days?
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com
reply to OHN

said by OHN:

With all do respect, I have worked on many occasions with people that have these certificates and have come to found out it does not necessarily indicate they know what they are doing. I do however recognize it would not hurt me to get them. That may be something for me to shoot for in the future.

Certifications, a degree, and past experience are no indications that people know what they are doing. The only way you know if people know what they are doing is to have them do it and you see that they can do something. In this world though, with the job market so tight, as someone who does hiring in IT I can tell you that the first thing I look for is a candidate strong in all three areas. It is easy to find people strong in all three areas right now. Its a buyers market out there.

Don't discount the strength of certifications and a degree because you don't have one. Odds are you are not getting the big payday because those two areas are areas of weakness on your resume.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com
reply to Wily_One

said by Wily_One:

In the real world things like hiring and salary increase decisions do not depend solely on "hard" attributes like qualifications and experience; there is also the "soft" traits such as likeability, personality, etc. Could be your management just likes her more than you. Could be she is more sociable, "shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed more, which leads to a more favorable impression, and so on.

As is often the case, your contributions on the tech side prevent problems from reaching upper management, if they are even noticed at all. Your work is thus under their radar. This is a potential pitfall in organizations that do not know how much a good tech saves them. They can't appreciate what they are not aware of.

I agree with this as well. Personality and attitude are so important.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

said by Nightfall:

said by Wily_One:

As is often the case, your contributions on the tech side prevent problems from reaching upper management, if they are even noticed at all. Your work is thus under their radar. This is a potential pitfall in organizations that do not know how much a good tech saves them. They can't appreciate what they are not aware of.

I agree with this as well. Personality and attitude are so important.

The most highly mobile managers in every organization I've worked for are the ones that know how to get credit for the work they do, even if other do more and take that kind of work for granted.

I can't tell you how many artificial fires I've seen put out that I could do in 30 minutes from home.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to AVD

said by AVD:

said by Wily_One:

"shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed

is that what they are calling it these days?

heh - well I was trying to be more politically correct than saying "kiss ass".
How about "sycophant"?


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

said by Wily_One:

said by AVD:

said by Wily_One:

"shmoozing" with the uppers and thus getting noticed

is that what they are calling it these days?

heh - well I was trying to be more politically correct than saying "kiss ass".
How about "sycophant"?

I was implying they were kissing somewhere else...
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA

Could be... What's the old saying?:
"It's not what you know, it's who you blow."  


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

4 edits
reply to Wily_One

...



Black Box

join:2002-12-21

1 edit

said by OHN:

....

Here's your problem. He's afraid of you and he's keeping you down. You need a new boss, one way or another.
--
Keep It Safe, Stupid!

Yes, I CanChat. Can You?

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

^^ +1 ^^

Unfortunately in life you have to play the cards your dealt with, make sure all conversations are documented with hard copies via email, even if it was a verbal request, this way you have a record of your work.

Stop worrying about all the "other" groups and just focus on making your boss happy, he is the only one that decides your pay.

One last thought, while the bosses boss may have given you much praise in the past, for some reason, it is necessary to have a supervisor between you?, that raises a red flag.

Since you seem to have a strained relationship with your boss, I would really be careful on what you do to attempt a salary increase. Ask yourself the question is my current pay better than no pay, might seem over the top, but just remember, the boss you have may not appreciate you pointing out flaws or inequity's in his method of assigning pay rates, and he could find it easier to get rid of you ( and bring in someone new at lower rate ) than allow your documentation putting him in an unfavorable light ... as I said 80K with no degrees or certifications is not something one can find if unemployed in IT

I have a nephew in a call center environment, very IT savvy and about 10 years experience, he has told me a few time the stand operational practice is to get rid of ANY senor people as its much cheaper to just keep bringing in new people than letting salary creep take it hold. I know every place is different but thought a little prospective would help ground your thinking


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

4 edits

.....


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to Black Box

...



Modus
I hate smartassery on forums
Premium
join:2005-05-02
us
reply to OHN

said by OHN:

Last thing, I already applied at a couple places and was offered 80k for the Business Systems Analyst position (I would actually do less than I do now). I turned it down because I first wanted to try work things out with my current employer. Keep in mind where you and I live as the cost of living will be different.

Wow you turned down 80k??????? that's nothing to sneeze at
--
Think Ahead. Learn More. Solve Now!

Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1

said by Modus:

said by OHN:

Last thing, I already applied at a couple places and was offered 80k for the Business Systems Analyst position (I would actually do less than I do now). I turned it down because I first wanted to try work things out with my current employer. Keep in mind where you and I live as the cost of living will be different.

Wow you turned down 80k??????? that's nothing to sneeze at

Yeah 80 with no degree and no certs is pretty good. Once I'm done with school (for a 4 year IS degree) and with some non-A+ certs and 5+ years experience, I'll be happy to pull 70 or 75 in an as-yet-undetermined administrative or managerial IT position.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

said by Oedipus:

Yeah 80 with no degree and no certs is pretty good.

he had 20+ years of experience.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by AVD:

said by Oedipus:

Yeah 80 with no degree and no certs is pretty good.

he had 20+ years of experience.

Anything over 7+ years in IT does mean much as the technology is constantly changing. I wish the OP best in his venture for better pay!


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

with 20 under his belt, it show he can adapt and adopt


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to Modus

...


OHN

join:2003-02-05
Appleton, WI
kudos:1

4 edits
reply to AVD

Thank you all for contributing to this thread though. I think it served its purpose.


Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1
reply to AVD

said by AVD:

said by Oedipus:

Yeah 80 with no degree and no certs is pretty good.

he had 20+ years of experience.

Yes, and that likely factors in to his current pay grade.