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pacpac
join:2011-12-18

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Re: RV042 - giving up - recommendation for a quality dual WAN?

Good explanation. I will try by setting the 2 single WANs in front of the RV042. What subnet mask would I use? 255.255.255.0? The reason for the Load Balancing is a) the ISP cannot supply higher than 4/1 and b) need Protocol Binding for a handful of sites.

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said by pacpac:

Good explanation. I will try by setting the 2 single WANs in front of the RV042. What subnet mask would I use? 255.255.255.0? The reason for the Load Balancing is a) the ISP cannot supply higher than 4/1 and b) need Protocol Binding for a handful of sites.

Yes, a 255.255.255.0 netmask would work with no problems.

Of course, Protocol Binding is only needed if you are using load balancing. If your router only has a single WAN, there is nothing else to bind to.

Good luck with this next step.
HELLFIRE
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said by pacpac:

Yes, both cable modems are on 192.168.100.1.

*slaps forehead*

Probably should've asked this question right at the beginning, but if you were double NAT'ing your connection here ie. the cable modem functions as BOTH a cable modem, and a (wireless) gateway, that's a generally a source of more than one problems
with connectivity.

Regards

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said by HELLFIRE:

said by pacpac:

Yes, both cable modems are on 192.168.100.1.

*slaps forehead*

Probably should've asked this question right at the beginning, but if you were double NAT'ing your connection here ie. the cable modem functions as BOTH a cable modem, and a (wireless) gateway, that's a generally a source of more than one problems
with connectivity.

Regards

The OP has Motorola SB5100 and SB5101 standard cable modems, not gateways. This was revealed in one of the other related threads (there are several): »How to find ISP modems' gateway IP?
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

1 edit

pacpac

Member

Thanks, looks like I am getting closer to the solution and proper operation of the RV042. I have configured the following (of some reason I could not set 192.168.101.1 in one of the routers, D-Link, so I used the default, 192.168.0.1). It has been working fine for a couple of hours now.

Cable modem 1 connected to switch
Switch connected to D-Link and PAP2T, dynamic IPs handed out
D-Link connected to RV042 WAN 1 port

Cable modem 2 connected to Linksys
Linksys connected to RV042 WAN 2 port, dynamic IP handed out

Windows machine (MTU 1500) connected to RV042 LAN 1 port
SkypePhone connected to RV042 LAN 2 port
Linksys wireless connected to RV042 LAN 4 port
Second Windows machine (MTU 1500) connected to Linksys wireless

General configuration:
DNS 208.67.222.222/208.67.220.220 on all devices
Subnet mask 255.255.255.0 on all devices
Static LAN IPs on all devices inside LAN
Dynamic IP configuration on Internet facing

RV042 configuration:
LAN IP 192.168.1.1
WAN 1 static IP 192.168.0.2
WAN 1 Gateway 192.168.0.1
WAN 2 static IP 192.168.2.2
WAN 2 Gateway 192.168.2.1
MTU manual 1500 on WAN 1 and WAN 2
DHCP off
Load Balancing with 5 IPs bound to one WAN port
Firewall enabled (SPI disabled)

D-Link configuration - feeding RV042 WAN 1 port:
WAN IP dynamic
LAN IP 192.168.0.1
MTU manual 1500

Linksys configuration - feeding RV042 WAN 2 port:
WAN IP dynamic
LAN IP 192.168.2.1
MTU manual 1500

From a technocal perspective, would this be a correct configuration? Do you see anyting wrong? I intend to run this for the next hours and monitor performance.

clarknova
join:2010-02-23
Grande Prairie, AB

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Are both of your WANs using the same default gateway? I don't know if the RV042 can cope with this. Many multi-WAN routers cannot. Try inserting a NAT device between the modem and one of the WANs. Reboot the modem and try again.

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said by pacpac:

From a technocal perspective, would this be a correct configuration? Do you see anyting wrong? I intend to run this for the next hours and monitor performance.

Everything looks good to me, and of course, the real test is "does it work?".

The only thing I see that might cause you problems if you are planning to use a VPN, is that the IP subnets 192.168.0/24, 192.168.1/24 and 192.168.2/24 are so commonly used, and that can cause problems with VPN sessions because the local and remote IP subnets usually need to be different for most VPN implementations.
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

pacpac

Member

Hi, the set-up is working very well so far. Very much like what I would expect by a dual WAN router. Will conclude during this weekend, and will let you know. I am not using VPN, so no issue for me.

I am speaking with my ISP and am thinking to ask them to set up 2 static IPs, one for each cable modem and one additional dynamic IP for one of the two modems. The cable modems must have different LAN IPs, e.g. one 192.168.100.1 and the second 192.168.101.1, and there should be different gateways on the cable modems. The 2 static IPs to be configured in RV042 WAN ports, one cable modem directly to the RV042 and the second via the switch to the RV042. Then I connect the PAP2T to the switch which uses the dynamic IP. I guess this should also work OK?

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said by pacpac:

I am speaking with my ISP and am thinking to ask them to set up 2 static IPs, one for each cable modem and one additional dynamic IP for one of the two modems. The cable modems must have different LAN IPs, e.g. one 192.168.100.1 and the second 192.168.101.1, and there should be different gateways on the cable modems. The 2 static IPs to be configured in RV042 WAN ports, one cable modem directly to the RV042 and the second via the switch to the RV042. Then I connect the PAP2T to the switch which uses the dynamic IP. I guess this should also work OK?

I don't really think that the off-line LAN IP address being the same on both cable modems was your problem because the RV042 should not even see that IP address once the cable modems sync with your ISP and then transfer the public IP address(es) to the RV042's WAN interface(s). It is more likely that your problem was caused by the public IP addresses being on the same subnet for the ISP, and also that they shared the same gateway.

If you can get your ISP to assign static public IP addresses that are on different subnets and use different gateways to each connection, that might enable you to eliminate the need for the additional NAT routers between the modems and the RV042. Also, how your ISP goes about assigning static IP addresses may play a big role in how you connect everything. My current ISP (Comcast), will only assign static IP addresses in CIDR blocks (/30, /29, etc), and they will only do it if you are using a cable gateway that they supply. If your ISP does it the same way, then you may need to replace each of your current modems with an ISP supplied modem/router gateway box. That would eliminate the need for cascaded NAT, and having separate CIDR static subnets should fix the common subnet/gateway problem.
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

pacpac

Member

I am confused,.... The cable modems have a different subnet mask, one is 255.255.254.0 and the other 255.255.252.0. The gateways are completely different. The only thing in common I can see is that both has 192.168.100.1 LAN IPs.

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said by pacpac:

I am confused,.... The cable modems have a different subnet mask, one is 255.255.254.0 and the other 255.255.252.0. The gateways are completely different. The only thing in common I can see is that both has 192.168.100.1 LAN IPs.

OK, that is the first time I can recall you releasing that information. The RV042 should not be even attempting to use the 192.168.100.1/24 subnet once the modems sync and pass the public IP address information back to the RV042's WAN interface. But apparently the RV042 is indeed remembering that subnet and it is causing you to have problems.

I doubt that your ISP will be able/willing to upload a custom firmware to your modems that will change the otherwise unchangeable LAN IP address of 192.168.100.1. Perhaps there is a config file command that they can put into your config file, but that would mean that they would have to send your modems special config files that are sent to nobody else, and I really don't see any ISP doing that. Unless you (or your ISP) can find two modems that allow the off-line LAN IP address to be changed, you will probably have to continue to have the NAT routers between your RV042 and the modems.
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

pacpac

Member

Let's see what the ISP ends up with. Anyway, the RV042 is still going strong. So I am Ok having the 2 routers in front of the RV042 and configure static IPs there.

I am not sure if this is of relevance, when I do tracert on each WAN port (the other one closed) to yahoo.com, I note the first line is the RV042, the second line is either of the 2 routers, and the third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh line are all the same for both connections.

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said by pacpac:

Let's see what the ISP ends up with. Anyway, the RV042 is still going strong. So I am Ok having the 2 routers in front of the RV042 and configure static IPs there.

I am not sure if this is of relevance, when I do tracert on each WAN port (the other one closed) to yahoo.com, I note the first line is the RV042, the second line is either of the 2 routers, and the third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh line are all the same for both connections.

The traceroute being the same after the trace passes your ISP's gateway is probably normal. It would be unusual for an ISP to have multiple backbone connections to the same physical location. However, if the third hop is actually your ISP's gateway (and it should be), then that says that both of your connections are using the same ISP gateway.

Shown below are a couple of traceroutes I just did from one of my workstations. I use a script file that allows me to change the router that is used for my local default gateway, and each of my routers has its own public IP address on the Internet. Hop 2 in each of the traceroutes below is my ISP's gateway, and you can see that it is the same even though each router is connected independently to the Internet. There are some minor differences in the middle hops, but that is just load balancing on Comcast's network.


C:\>use-dlink-router.cmd
 
Pinging 192.168.9.254 with 32 bytes of data:
 
Reply from 192.168.9.254: bytes=32 time<1ms TTL=64
 
Ping statistics for 192.168.9.254:
    Packets: Sent = 1, Received = 1, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms
You are now using the Comcast Business Class connection!
 
C:\>tracert www.dslreports.com
 
Tracing route to www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  gw1.dcs-net [192.168.9.254]
  2    38 ms    19 ms    20 ms  107.3.232.1
  3    10 ms     9 ms     9 ms  68.85.50.129
  4    11 ms    12 ms    10 ms  68.86.176.105
  5    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  pos-5-5-0-0-cr01.56marietta.ga.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.90.101]
  6    39 ms    35 ms    35 ms  he-0-5-0-0-cr01.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.89.157]
  7    40 ms    47 ms    48 ms  he-0-10-0-0-cr01.newyork.ny.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.85.10]
  8    49 ms    51 ms    48 ms  173.167.58.26
  9    42 ms    57 ms    40 ms  0.e1-4.tbr1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.122]
 10    42 ms    42 ms    41 ms  vlan804.esd1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.2]
 11    40 ms    41 ms    41 ms  www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
 
Trace complete.
 
C:\>use-vonage-router.cmd
 
Pinging 192.168.9.12 with 32 bytes of data:
 
Reply from 192.168.9.12: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=255
 
Ping statistics for 192.168.9.12:
    Packets: Sent = 1, Received = 1, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 1ms, Maximum = 1ms, Average = 1ms
You are now using the Vonage RTP300 router!
 
C:\>tracert www.dslreports.com
 
Tracing route to www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  gv2.dcs-net [192.168.9.12]
  2    35 ms    29 ms    25 ms  107.3.232.1
  3    10 ms     9 ms     9 ms  68.85.50.129
  4    10 ms    11 ms    12 ms  68.86.176.105
  5    20 ms    19 ms    20 ms  pos-5-6-0-0-cr01.56marietta.ga.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.90.89]
  6    41 ms    35 ms    35 ms  he-0-7-0-0-cr01.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.89.165]
  7    49 ms    47 ms    47 ms  he-0-12-0-0-cr01.newyork.ny.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.85.30]
  8   141 ms    40 ms    46 ms  173.167.58.26
  9    41 ms    41 ms    42 ms  0.e1-4.tbr1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.122]
 10    42 ms    57 ms    43 ms  vlan804.esd1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.2]
 11    60 ms    55 ms    60 ms  www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
 
Trace complete.
 



Shown below is the WAN information for the two routers:


D-Link DIR655 WAN status



Vonage RTP300 WAN status
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

pacpac

Member

OK, understand. So the ISP gateway is the third line and not the gateway as reported in the status screen on the routers?

Had an electricity outage overnight and the RV042 ceased to operate properly when the system started up. Both cable modems were fine when connecting directly and connections just fine when connecting directly to each router set in front of the RV042. When connecting the RV042, no connection. I did a reset of the RV042 and entered all settings and now it is OK. If I do a backup of the current settings, do a reset of the RV042 and import the settings; would this be the same as entering the settings manually?

NetFixer
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said by pacpac:

OK, understand. So the ISP gateway is the third line and not the gateway as reported in the status screen on the routers?

The first hop outside your network should be your ISP gateway. If you want a more definitive answer, then post screen shots of the WAN setup/status for your routers and the results of the traceroutes. I can only provide guesses when the information being supplied is filtered.
said by pacpac:

Had an electricity outage overnight and the RV042 ceased to operate properly when the system started up. Both cable modems were fine when connecting directly and connections just fine when connecting directly to each router set in front of the RV042. When connecting the RV042, no connection. I did a reset of the RV042 and entered all settings and now it is OK. If I do a backup of the current settings, do a reset of the RV042 and import the settings; would this be the same as entering the settings manually?

If nothing happened other than a power failure, I have no explanation why the RV042 did not resume operation after the power failure. I am unclear on exactly what transpired after the power failure, but if you changed devices connected to the cable modems, the cable modems need to be reset/power cycled anytime the devices connected to their LAN interfaces change.

Restoring from a saved config file should be the same as entering everything again manually, but I have on multiple occasions, and multiple routers, found that restoring a saved backup config file on a router that was having problems would just restore the problems. I don't know how extensive your configuration is, but I have found that sometimes a factory default reset followed by manually reentering the configuration parameters fixed a problem.
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

1 edit

pacpac

Member

Click for full size
Tracert

D-Link

Linksys
See uploaded/attached tracert for the 2 WANs (WAN 1 first), and status screen from each router in front of RV042. The gateways as reported in the status screens are completely different than from the IPs outside my network as reported by tracert.

The ISP hands out an IP for each MAC address and the IP remains the same for each MAC address irrespective of which of the 2 cable modems the device is connected to. All devices uses gateway 10.32.0.1 even though a different gateway address is noted in the router/device status screen. The subnet alternates between 255.255.252.0 and 255.255.254.0. Do these characteristics play a role in the configuration/operation of the RV042?

NetFixer
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said by pacpac:

See uploaded/attached tracert for the 2 WANs (WAN 1 first), and status screen from each router in front of RV042. The gateways as reported in the status screens are completely different than from the IPs outside my network as reported by tracert.

The ISP hands out an IP for each MAC address and the IP remains the same for each MAC address irrespective of which of the 2 cable modems the device is connected to. All devices uses gateway 10.32.0.1 even though a different gateway address is noted in the router/device status screen. The subnet alternates between 255.255.252.0 and 255.255.254.0. Do these characteristics play a role in the configuration/operation of the RV042?

It would seem that your ISP may be using a transparent proxy, and that is possibly why your RV042 has problems when it is directly connected to the modems in load balancing mode. It would be unlikely (although not impossible if the RV042 has a basic firmware problem) that the cable modems having the same off-line 192.168.100.1 IP address was causing the problems with the RV042 in load balancing mode. The cable modems having the same IP address should only prevent the RV042 from having IP connectivity to the modems, not from having bridged IP connectivity to the Internet. The common proxy gateway would be a more likely cause of problems (but your current method of inserting secondary routers between the RV042 and the modems should provide insulation from that).

What you describe about the ISP's DHCP server maintaining the same IP address for each MAC address is how almost any DHCP server works. And FYI, what you are calling a subnet is actually a subnet mask. The subnet is a combination of the IP address and the subnet mask: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subnetwork

To get back to your previous post, I have no idea why your RV042 can't recover after a power cycle when it is behind the secondary routers. If doing a factory default reset and manually reentering all of the config parameters does not fix that problem, I can't think of anything else for you to try, except for putting the RV042, the secondary routers, and the modems on a UPS.
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

pacpac

Member

Thanks again for good clarification. The current configuration seems to operate very well and has been stable for hours (except for the power failure). Reset, manually re-entering the config and power cycle solved the issue immediately. One of the problems which may play a role is that I do experience power failure relatively often, sometimes for just a second or so, other times 10-30 minutes. It might be a good idea to invest in a UPS. What size/capacity/model would I need for the 2 cable modems, 2 single routers, switch, RV042 and the PAP2T?

On another note, earlier today I tested the configuration; streamed a news TV station, Netflix in HD, Skype video/audio session, a music station streaming and a telephone conversation through the PAP2T. I could also browse normally and send a couple of e-mails. All of this without any disturbance/flickering/latency. It went on for about 10 minutes; a good real-life test. Need to test it through tonight and over-night. Hope to conclude all is OK tomorrow.

NetFixer
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said by pacpac:

Thanks again for good clarification. The current configuration seems to operate very well and has been stable for hours (except for the power failure). Reset, manually re-entering the config and power cycle solved the issue immediately. One of the problems which may play a role is that I do experience power failure relatively often, sometimes for just a second or so, other times 10-30 minutes. It might be a good idea to invest in a UPS. What size/capacity/model would I need for the 2 cable modems, 2 single routers, switch, RV042 and the PAP2T?

On another note, earlier today I tested the configuration; streamed a news TV station, Netflix in HD, Skype video/audio session, a music station streaming and a telephone conversation through the PAP2T. I could also browse normally and send a couple of e-mails. All of this without any disturbance/flickering/latency. It went on for about 10 minutes; a good real-life test. Need to test it through tonight and over-night. Hope to conclude all is OK tomorrow.

None of those devices really use much power, so almost any UPS you choose would probably suffice. I currently have four routers, three switches, a modem, and a DECT phone base station on one APC 650 VA UPS. I have never bothered to do a "run down" test, but in local power outages of up to ~ one hour (fortunately I have not had any long term power outages in many years), it has never dropped power to my comm rack devices ( »www.dcs-net.net/image/DC ··· rack.jpg ).

Glad to hear that your setup now seems to be stable. Now that I know that your ISP is using a transparent proxy, I think that was causing most of your previous problems with load balancing.
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

pacpac

Member

I am still struggling with complete stability, I get a few minutes internet disconnect and slow speed 2-3 times during a 24 hour period for no apparent reason. Sometimes it restores itself or I need to restart the equipment. However, the stability and operation has significantly improved since the 2 single WAN routers were set in front of the RV042. I am thinking that an issue contributing to the lack of stability are spikes and drops in the power supply, and very brief outages. How sensitive is this equipment to uneven supply of power?

NetFixer
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said by pacpac:

I am still struggling with complete stability, I get a few minutes internet disconnect and slow speed 2-3 times during a 24 hour period for no apparent reason. Sometimes it restores itself or I need to restart the equipment. However, the stability and operation has significantly improved since the 2 single WAN routers were set in front of the RV042. I am thinking that an issue contributing to the lack of stability are spikes and drops in the power supply, and very brief outages. How sensitive is this equipment to uneven supply of power?

The only answer I can give you is that it depends on the equipment and the severity of the power fluctuations.

Personally, I have always connected modems and routers to a UPS, and I have also always tried to get clients to do the same.

Of course, if your ISP has equipment in the field that does not have UPS protection, then a UPS on your end may not always ensure an uninterrupted connection. My current ISP (Comcast) used to drop the connection anytime there was any power outage or electrical storm activity in the area, but eventually (after they became a "telephone company"), they upgraded their infrastructure to be able to ride through brief power outages. As always, YMMV.
HELLFIRE
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join:2009-11-25

HELLFIRE to pacpac

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to pacpac
said by pacpac:

How sensitive is this equipment to uneven supply of power?

To put it into context, what you feel as static electricity is several THOUSAND times what it takes to kill
an Intel or AMD CPU in a computer. Not enough power can damage electrical components just as bad.

Regards
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

pacpac

Member

I have been looking into the power issue, and have two questions; a) would it suffice to just connect a surge protector and the modems/router from there and b) would it be possible to connect the surge protector to one socket of the UPS providing power for short time when the power fails and protect against surges and line noise?

NetFixer
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said by pacpac:

I have been looking into the power issue, and have two questions; a) would it suffice to just connect a surge protector and the modems/router from there and b) would it be possible to connect the surge protector to one socket of the UPS providing power for short time when the power fails and protect against surges and line noise?

I am not sure that I understand this question.

If you are asking "can I connect a surge protector or other multiple outlet power distribution box to a power output connector of a UPS box?", then the answer is yes.

The UPS that I use for the modems/routers/etc in my comm rack only has two protected power outlets. I have two multiple outlet surge protector boxes connected to the UPS in order to supply power to all of the devices in my comm rack.
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

pacpac

Member

Thanks. Yes, I was thinking of connecting a surge protector to the power output of the UPS and the devices to the surge protector. More specifically, to the power output of the UPS that provides power for a brief time upon general power failure.
pacpac

pacpac

Member

Modems, routers, switch, ATA and a phone is now on the UPS. Internet connection stable and proper upon boot-up. In the event I now get stability over a 24-hrs period, the following question arise; was the solution the two routers in front of the RV042, a power issue or a combination of both?

billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
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billaustin

MVM

I would say a combination of the two. I have seen the same problem with other dual WAN routers when both feeds came from the same ISP. A separate router was installed between the modem and the second WAN port so it had a different gateway than WAN 1.

Dirty or unstable power is always a problem. I have all computer and network equipment connected to a battery backup. I even have one in the bedroom for my laptop and alarm clock.
pacpac
join:2011-12-18

pacpac

Member

I am coming to the same conclusion, my last test (devices on UPS and 2 routers in front of the RV042) has been running fine for the last 6-7 hours. Two questions:

1) You are referring to a separate router installed between the modem and the second WAN port, would you also say that I only need one router in front of the RV042 (connect to the second WAN port) and connect the cable modem directly to the first WAN port?

2) When I have the RV042 working fine in LB mode and I disable one WAN port in the RV042 control panel (by ticking the box 'disable' in 'Port Management', and save settings), then browse, could it be that some pages are partially loaded because the RV042 try to access the port that is disabled?

billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV

billaustin

MVM

1) Yes

2) Yes
HELLFIRE
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join:2009-11-25

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to pacpac
said by pacpac:

a) would it suffice to just connect a surge protector and the modems/router from there

If you want to protect against ANY power issues of any sort, invest in a quality UPS. The basic stuff it should
do out of the box is over / undervoltage and surge / sag protection; there's pobably more, but it's been
awhile since I've looked into this.

Wire your RV042 into the UPS (any anything else you want to protect) and away you go.
said by pacpac:

b) would it be possible to connect the surge protector to one socket of the UPS providing power for short time when the power fails and protect against surges and line noise?

Far as I know, any quality UPS should do surge / sag protection in the same unit as well.
said by pacpac:

2) When I have the RV042 working fine in LB mode and I disable one WAN port in the RV042 control panel (by ticking the box 'disable' in 'Port Management', and save settings), then browse, could it be that some pages are partially loaded because the RV042 try to access the port that is disabled?

I would think whoever wrote the software for the RV042 that "disabled" MEANS "disabled."

Regards