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NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
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join:2004-06-24
The Boro
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reply to pacpac

Re: RV042 - giving up - recommendation for a quality dual WAN?

said by pacpac:

I am confused,.... The cable modems have a different subnet mask, one is 255.255.254.0 and the other 255.255.252.0. The gateways are completely different. The only thing in common I can see is that both has 192.168.100.1 LAN IPs.

OK, that is the first time I can recall you releasing that information. The RV042 should not be even attempting to use the 192.168.100.1/24 subnet once the modems sync and pass the public IP address information back to the RV042's WAN interface. But apparently the RV042 is indeed remembering that subnet and it is causing you to have problems.

I doubt that your ISP will be able/willing to upload a custom firmware to your modems that will change the otherwise unchangeable LAN IP address of 192.168.100.1. Perhaps there is a config file command that they can put into your config file, but that would mean that they would have to send your modems special config files that are sent to nobody else, and I really don't see any ISP doing that. Unless you (or your ISP) can find two modems that allow the off-line LAN IP address to be changed, you will probably have to continue to have the NAT routers between your RV042 and the modems.
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

Let's see what the ISP ends up with. Anyway, the RV042 is still going strong. So I am Ok having the 2 routers in front of the RV042 and configure static IPs there.

I am not sure if this is of relevance, when I do tracert on each WAN port (the other one closed) to yahoo.com, I note the first line is the RV042, the second line is either of the 2 routers, and the third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh line are all the same for both connections.



NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
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Reviews:
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said by pacpac:

Let's see what the ISP ends up with. Anyway, the RV042 is still going strong. So I am Ok having the 2 routers in front of the RV042 and configure static IPs there.

I am not sure if this is of relevance, when I do tracert on each WAN port (the other one closed) to yahoo.com, I note the first line is the RV042, the second line is either of the 2 routers, and the third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh line are all the same for both connections.

The traceroute being the same after the trace passes your ISP's gateway is probably normal. It would be unusual for an ISP to have multiple backbone connections to the same physical location. However, if the third hop is actually your ISP's gateway (and it should be), then that says that both of your connections are using the same ISP gateway.

Shown below are a couple of traceroutes I just did from one of my workstations. I use a script file that allows me to change the router that is used for my local default gateway, and each of my routers has its own public IP address on the Internet. Hop 2 in each of the traceroutes below is my ISP's gateway, and you can see that it is the same even though each router is connected independently to the Internet. There are some minor differences in the middle hops, but that is just load balancing on Comcast's network.


C:\>use-dlink-router.cmd
 
Pinging 192.168.9.254 with 32 bytes of data:
 
Reply from 192.168.9.254: bytes=32 time<1ms TTL=64
 
Ping statistics for 192.168.9.254:
    Packets: Sent = 1, Received = 1, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms
You are now using the Comcast Business Class connection!
 
C:\>tracert www.dslreports.com
 
Tracing route to www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  gw1.dcs-net [192.168.9.254]
  2    38 ms    19 ms    20 ms  107.3.232.1
  3    10 ms     9 ms     9 ms  68.85.50.129
  4    11 ms    12 ms    10 ms  68.86.176.105
  5    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  pos-5-5-0-0-cr01.56marietta.ga.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.90.101]
  6    39 ms    35 ms    35 ms  he-0-5-0-0-cr01.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.89.157]
  7    40 ms    47 ms    48 ms  he-0-10-0-0-cr01.newyork.ny.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.85.10]
  8    49 ms    51 ms    48 ms  173.167.58.26
  9    42 ms    57 ms    40 ms  0.e1-4.tbr1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.122]
 10    42 ms    42 ms    41 ms  vlan804.esd1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.2]
 11    40 ms    41 ms    41 ms  www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
 
Trace complete.
 
C:\>use-vonage-router.cmd
 
Pinging 192.168.9.12 with 32 bytes of data:
 
Reply from 192.168.9.12: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=255
 
Ping statistics for 192.168.9.12:
    Packets: Sent = 1, Received = 1, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 1ms, Maximum = 1ms, Average = 1ms
You are now using the Vonage RTP300 router!
 
C:\>tracert www.dslreports.com
 
Tracing route to www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  gv2.dcs-net [192.168.9.12]
  2    35 ms    29 ms    25 ms  107.3.232.1
  3    10 ms     9 ms     9 ms  68.85.50.129
  4    10 ms    11 ms    12 ms  68.86.176.105
  5    20 ms    19 ms    20 ms  pos-5-6-0-0-cr01.56marietta.ga.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.90.89]
  6    41 ms    35 ms    35 ms  he-0-7-0-0-cr01.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.89.165]
  7    49 ms    47 ms    47 ms  he-0-12-0-0-cr01.newyork.ny.ibone.comcast.net [68.86.85.30]
  8   141 ms    40 ms    46 ms  173.167.58.26
  9    41 ms    41 ms    42 ms  0.e1-4.tbr1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.122]
 10    42 ms    57 ms    43 ms  vlan804.esd1.oct.nac.net [209.123.10.2]
 11    60 ms    55 ms    60 ms  www.dslreports.com [209.123.109.175]
 
Trace complete.
 



Shown below is the WAN information for the two routers:


D-Link DIR655 WAN status



Vonage RTP300 WAN status


--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

OK, understand. So the ISP gateway is the third line and not the gateway as reported in the status screen on the routers?

Had an electricity outage overnight and the RV042 ceased to operate properly when the system started up. Both cable modems were fine when connecting directly and connections just fine when connecting directly to each router set in front of the RV042. When connecting the RV042, no connection. I did a reset of the RV042 and entered all settings and now it is OK. If I do a backup of the current settings, do a reset of the RV042 and import the settings; would this be the same as entering the settings manually?



NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
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said by pacpac:

OK, understand. So the ISP gateway is the third line and not the gateway as reported in the status screen on the routers?

The first hop outside your network should be your ISP gateway. If you want a more definitive answer, then post screen shots of the WAN setup/status for your routers and the results of the traceroutes. I can only provide guesses when the information being supplied is filtered.

said by pacpac:

Had an electricity outage overnight and the RV042 ceased to operate properly when the system started up. Both cable modems were fine when connecting directly and connections just fine when connecting directly to each router set in front of the RV042. When connecting the RV042, no connection. I did a reset of the RV042 and entered all settings and now it is OK. If I do a backup of the current settings, do a reset of the RV042 and import the settings; would this be the same as entering the settings manually?

If nothing happened other than a power failure, I have no explanation why the RV042 did not resume operation after the power failure. I am unclear on exactly what transpired after the power failure, but if you changed devices connected to the cable modems, the cable modems need to be reset/power cycled anytime the devices connected to their LAN interfaces change.

Restoring from a saved config file should be the same as entering everything again manually, but I have on multiple occasions, and multiple routers, found that restoring a saved backup config file on a router that was having problems would just restore the problems. I don't know how extensive your configuration is, but I have found that sometimes a factory default reset followed by manually reentering the configuration parameters fixed a problem.
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to pacpac

Click for full size
Tracert

D-Link

Linksys
See uploaded/attached tracert for the 2 WANs (WAN 1 first), and status screen from each router in front of RV042. The gateways as reported in the status screens are completely different than from the IPs outside my network as reported by tracert.

The ISP hands out an IP for each MAC address and the IP remains the same for each MAC address irrespective of which of the 2 cable modems the device is connected to. All devices uses gateway 10.32.0.1 even though a different gateway address is noted in the router/device status screen. The subnet alternates between 255.255.252.0 and 255.255.254.0. Do these characteristics play a role in the configuration/operation of the RV042?


NetFixer
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said by pacpac:

See uploaded/attached tracert for the 2 WANs (WAN 1 first), and status screen from each router in front of RV042. The gateways as reported in the status screens are completely different than from the IPs outside my network as reported by tracert.

The ISP hands out an IP for each MAC address and the IP remains the same for each MAC address irrespective of which of the 2 cable modems the device is connected to. All devices uses gateway 10.32.0.1 even though a different gateway address is noted in the router/device status screen. The subnet alternates between 255.255.252.0 and 255.255.254.0. Do these characteristics play a role in the configuration/operation of the RV042?

It would seem that your ISP may be using a transparent proxy, and that is possibly why your RV042 has problems when it is directly connected to the modems in load balancing mode. It would be unlikely (although not impossible if the RV042 has a basic firmware problem) that the cable modems having the same off-line 192.168.100.1 IP address was causing the problems with the RV042 in load balancing mode. The cable modems having the same IP address should only prevent the RV042 from having IP connectivity to the modems, not from having bridged IP connectivity to the Internet. The common proxy gateway would be a more likely cause of problems (but your current method of inserting secondary routers between the RV042 and the modems should provide insulation from that).

What you describe about the ISP's DHCP server maintaining the same IP address for each MAC address is how almost any DHCP server works. And FYI, what you are calling a subnet is actually a subnet mask. The subnet is a combination of the IP address and the subnet mask: »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subnetwork

To get back to your previous post, I have no idea why your RV042 can't recover after a power cycle when it is behind the secondary routers. If doing a factory default reset and manually reentering all of the config parameters does not fix that problem, I can't think of anything else for you to try, except for putting the RV042, the secondary routers, and the modems on a UPS.
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

Thanks again for good clarification. The current configuration seems to operate very well and has been stable for hours (except for the power failure). Reset, manually re-entering the config and power cycle solved the issue immediately. One of the problems which may play a role is that I do experience power failure relatively often, sometimes for just a second or so, other times 10-30 minutes. It might be a good idea to invest in a UPS. What size/capacity/model would I need for the 2 cable modems, 2 single routers, switch, RV042 and the PAP2T?

On another note, earlier today I tested the configuration; streamed a news TV station, Netflix in HD, Skype video/audio session, a music station streaming and a telephone conversation through the PAP2T. I could also browse normally and send a couple of e-mails. All of this without any disturbance/flickering/latency. It went on for about 10 minutes; a good real-life test. Need to test it through tonight and over-night. Hope to conclude all is OK tomorrow.



NetFixer
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said by pacpac:

Thanks again for good clarification. The current configuration seems to operate very well and has been stable for hours (except for the power failure). Reset, manually re-entering the config and power cycle solved the issue immediately. One of the problems which may play a role is that I do experience power failure relatively often, sometimes for just a second or so, other times 10-30 minutes. It might be a good idea to invest in a UPS. What size/capacity/model would I need for the 2 cable modems, 2 single routers, switch, RV042 and the PAP2T?

On another note, earlier today I tested the configuration; streamed a news TV station, Netflix in HD, Skype video/audio session, a music station streaming and a telephone conversation through the PAP2T. I could also browse normally and send a couple of e-mails. All of this without any disturbance/flickering/latency. It went on for about 10 minutes; a good real-life test. Need to test it through tonight and over-night. Hope to conclude all is OK tomorrow.

None of those devices really use much power, so almost any UPS you choose would probably suffice. I currently have four routers, three switches, a modem, and a DECT phone base station on one APC 650 VA UPS. I have never bothered to do a "run down" test, but in local power outages of up to ~ one hour (fortunately I have not had any long term power outages in many years), it has never dropped power to my comm rack devices ( »www.dcs-net.net/image/DCS-comm-rack.jpg ).

Glad to hear that your setup now seems to be stable. Now that I know that your ISP is using a transparent proxy, I think that was causing most of your previous problems with load balancing.
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

I am still struggling with complete stability, I get a few minutes internet disconnect and slow speed 2-3 times during a 24 hour period for no apparent reason. Sometimes it restores itself or I need to restart the equipment. However, the stability and operation has significantly improved since the 2 single WAN routers were set in front of the RV042. I am thinking that an issue contributing to the lack of stability are spikes and drops in the power supply, and very brief outages. How sensitive is this equipment to uneven supply of power?



NetFixer
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said by pacpac:

I am still struggling with complete stability, I get a few minutes internet disconnect and slow speed 2-3 times during a 24 hour period for no apparent reason. Sometimes it restores itself or I need to restart the equipment. However, the stability and operation has significantly improved since the 2 single WAN routers were set in front of the RV042. I am thinking that an issue contributing to the lack of stability are spikes and drops in the power supply, and very brief outages. How sensitive is this equipment to uneven supply of power?

The only answer I can give you is that it depends on the equipment and the severity of the power fluctuations.

Personally, I have always connected modems and routers to a UPS, and I have also always tried to get clients to do the same.

Of course, if your ISP has equipment in the field that does not have UPS protection, then a UPS on your end may not always ensure an uninterrupted connection. My current ISP (Comcast) used to drop the connection anytime there was any power outage or electrical storm activity in the area, but eventually (after they became a "telephone company"), they upgraded their infrastructure to be able to ride through brief power outages. As always, YMMV.
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

HELLFIRE
Premium
join:2009-11-25
kudos:18
reply to pacpac

said by pacpac:

How sensitive is this equipment to uneven supply of power?

To put it into context, what you feel as static electricity is several THOUSAND times what it takes to kill
an Intel or AMD CPU in a computer. Not enough power can damage electrical components just as bad.

Regards

pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

I have been looking into the power issue, and have two questions; a) would it suffice to just connect a surge protector and the modems/router from there and b) would it be possible to connect the surge protector to one socket of the UPS providing power for short time when the power fails and protect against surges and line noise?



NetFixer
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said by pacpac:

I have been looking into the power issue, and have two questions; a) would it suffice to just connect a surge protector and the modems/router from there and b) would it be possible to connect the surge protector to one socket of the UPS providing power for short time when the power fails and protect against surges and line noise?

I am not sure that I understand this question.

If you are asking "can I connect a surge protector or other multiple outlet power distribution box to a power output connector of a UPS box?", then the answer is yes.

The UPS that I use for the modems/routers/etc in my comm rack only has two protected power outlets. I have two multiple outlet surge protector boxes connected to the UPS in order to supply power to all of the devices in my comm rack.
--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1
reply to pacpac

Thanks. Yes, I was thinking of connecting a surge protector to the power output of the UPS and the devices to the surge protector. More specifically, to the power output of the UPS that provides power for a brief time upon general power failure.


pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

Modems, routers, switch, ATA and a phone is now on the UPS. Internet connection stable and proper upon boot-up. In the event I now get stability over a 24-hrs period, the following question arise; was the solution the two routers in front of the RV042, a power issue or a combination of both?



billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-13
North Las Vegas, NV
kudos:3

I would say a combination of the two. I have seen the same problem with other dual WAN routers when both feeds came from the same ISP. A separate router was installed between the modem and the second WAN port so it had a different gateway than WAN 1.

Dirty or unstable power is always a problem. I have all computer and network equipment connected to a battery backup. I even have one in the bedroom for my laptop and alarm clock.


pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

I am coming to the same conclusion, my last test (devices on UPS and 2 routers in front of the RV042) has been running fine for the last 6-7 hours. Two questions:

1) You are referring to a separate router installed between the modem and the second WAN port, would you also say that I only need one router in front of the RV042 (connect to the second WAN port) and connect the cable modem directly to the first WAN port?

2) When I have the RV042 working fine in LB mode and I disable one WAN port in the RV042 control panel (by ticking the box 'disable' in 'Port Management', and save settings), then browse, could it be that some pages are partially loaded because the RV042 try to access the port that is disabled?



billaustin
they call me Mr. Bill
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join:2001-10-13
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kudos:3

1) Yes

2) Yes


HELLFIRE
Premium
join:2009-11-25
kudos:18
reply to pacpac

said by pacpac:

a) would it suffice to just connect a surge protector and the modems/router from there

If you want to protect against ANY power issues of any sort, invest in a quality UPS. The basic stuff it should
do out of the box is over / undervoltage and surge / sag protection; there's pobably more, but it's been
awhile since I've looked into this.

Wire your RV042 into the UPS (any anything else you want to protect) and away you go.

said by pacpac:

b) would it be possible to connect the surge protector to one socket of the UPS providing power for short time when the power fails and protect against surges and line noise?

Far as I know, any quality UPS should do surge / sag protection in the same unit as well.

said by pacpac:

2) When I have the RV042 working fine in LB mode and I disable one WAN port in the RV042 control panel (by ticking the box 'disable' in 'Port Management', and save settings), then browse, could it be that some pages are partially loaded because the RV042 try to access the port that is disabled?

I would think whoever wrote the software for the RV042 that "disabled" MEANS "disabled."

Regards

pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1


1

2
I am about to preliminary conclude the current set-up is now working fine. In summary, two principle issues were dealt with in order to achieve sustained internet connectivity with the RV042 and 2 cable connections from the same ISP; a) set up so the RV042 WAN ports operated through different gateways and b) ensure quality power supply to relevant devices.

On Monday I installed a CDP 750Va UPS and connected modems, routers, switch, ATA and phones. This UPS appears to be adequate for this particular purpose.

See two screenshots attached indicating the RV042's proper load balancing feature; one (1) where a streaming TV station is on and I start a second streaming video, and the second (2) where one streaming TV station is on and I start a speed test. The 'Break point download' mark indicates max download speed on one connection.

Thank you all for great input!

hardly
Premium
join:2004-02-10
USA
reply to pacpac

Re: RV042 - resolved - recommendation for a quality dual WAN?

Maybe it is time to edit the title from 'giving up' to 'resolved'.



NetFixer
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said by hardly:

Maybe it is time to edit the title from 'giving up' to 'resolved'.

It is way too late for the OP to be able to do that.

»Site FAQ »Can't edit your post?

After you submit a post, you have a 5-day period within which you can edit your post by clicking on the "edit" link.


--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

hardly
Premium
join:2004-02-10
USA

Sorry, mea culpa.


HELLFIRE
Premium
join:2009-11-25
kudos:18
reply to pacpac

Re: RV042 - giving up - recommendation for a quality dual WAN?

Fingers crossed and sacrifices to the appropriate Gods of IT lined up yet pacpac See Profile?

Just as a test, have you put all devices onto the UPS and see how long it can carry the load?
IIRC, under a full load 750Va can do a few minutes, but not that long.

Regards


pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

Thanks.

Devices connected to the UPS (model CDP G-UPR 750Va):

1) Motorola SB5100 cable modem
2) Motorola SB5101 cable modem
3) Linksys WRT320N router
4) Linksys WRT54G2 router w/dd-wrt firmware *)
5) Linksys RV042 router
6) TP-Link TL-SF1005D switch
7) Linksys PAP2T ATA
8) Panasonic KX-TG4012 wireless phone; base station and 2 handsets

*) In order to not have issues with DNS I unticked 'Use DNSMasq for DNS' and 'Use DNSMasq for DHCP', and disable 'DNSMasq'.

The devices are plugged into two surge protectors connected to 2 outlets on the UPS.

Test this morning (no phone calls made during test):

7:01 - Mains cut
7:30 - Audible/visual warning on the UPS (fast movement on beep signal and indicator light)
7:32 - Devices shut-down

So, about 30 mins uptime on the UPS, which is adequate. I have had one or two power failures for more than 30 minutes over the last 7-8 years. As indicated earlier, I am experiencing outages from a few seconds to 5-15 mins relatively frequent. I believe this UPS will do the job. Thinking of getting an APC 1500/2000Va as a second UPS and connect one Windows machine and 2 LED screens.


HELLFIRE
Premium
join:2009-11-25
kudos:18
reply to pacpac

Thought there was a couple higher draw devices in that mix... but if it holds up that long, you should be in
a good place. Here's hoping pacpac!

Regards


pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

Under normal operation (no protocol binding set) does the RV042 give priority to any one of the two WAN ports when the PC is accessing Internet, or is it completely random of which WAN port RV042 chooses to use?



NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
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Reviews:
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said by pacpac:

Under normal operation (no protocol binding set) does the RV042 give priority to any one of the two WAN ports when the PC is accessing Internet, or is it completely random of which WAN port RV042 chooses to use?

Yes, it pretty much is random if you have the bandwidth for each port setup the same. I have attached a pdf file that I saved from an article explaining the load balancing algorithms used by the RVxxx series routers. I can't just post the URL because Cisco removed all of the on-line support for the hardware version 1 and 2 devices (and for that reason, there are links in this PDF file won't work anymore either).

downloadrv-dual-mult···e-00.pdf 60821 bytes


I am attaching another PDF file explaining how to enable telnet access to the RVxxx series routers, since telnet access is disabled by default, and is not documented in the user manual. You may or may not have a use for telnet access, but I found it occasionally useful for my RV082 before I had to retire it because it did not support IPv6.

downloadEnabling Tel···V016.pdf 90848 bytes

--
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

pacpac

join:2011-12-18
kudos:1

Thanks, very interesting read indeed.