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Just Bob
Premium
join:2000-08-13
Spring Hill, FL
reply to daveinpoway

Re: Reddit co-founder Aaron Swartz found dead.

There's a double tragedy here. The loss of a brilliant young man is tragic. He didn't intend to be a martyr and that's the second tragedy. No one would have thought he was putting his life at risk under any sane system of law.

Just Bob
Premium
join:2000-08-13
Spring Hill, FL
reply to Just Bob
Guerilla Open Access Manifesto ~ Aaron Swartz
»pastebin.com/cefxMVAy
Expand your moderator at work


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to Blackbird

Re: Reddit co-founder Aaron Swartz found dead.

said by Blackbird:

said by PX Eliezer70:

... Swartz pleaded not guilty. His federal trial on computer fraud charges was to begin next month....

»www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-575···nd-dead/...

Well, he is alleged to have hacked the MIT computer and copied the journals with intent to give copies of them away - which, to me, seems more like hacking and "copyright violation" rather than outright "stealing".

he had a license to the content. The bulk downloading was probably a violation of the license as well as the "intent to distribute". But he did not hack anything.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--

nonymous
Premium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
reply to signmeuptoo
said by signmeuptoo:

Speaking as a bipolar person who has been treated like shit because of it, I can tell you, people readily exploit you once they know you deal with a mental issue like depression. Some get their jollies with it. Some just take advantage of you. Clinical depression is pure hell, and being sad isn't depression, sadly, the folks that most need to understand are the quickest to dismiss...

Some people are going to treat you badly anyways. Your own makeup determines how you react to it.
I went through some depression years ago. Everything went wrong at once. Some people cared, some people did try to use me but would have anyways with or without depression, most didn't care one way or the other .
Thing is those that saw a chink and the armor and went for it would have gone for any weakness. Heck no weakness and they were still going after me.
Just when you are seeing things in a skewed perspective you do not handle things as well. So really you can not say they are going after you because of BP , depression etc. Probably going after you anyways. Plus because of your skewed perspective may not be going after you as much as you think or as personally as you think.
In this case they are fighting a case and it looks good on their track record. Doesn't matter who it is or what if any problems they have. Just think the public wants to see them fight this case to make them look good.


chachazz
Premium
join:2003-12-14
kudos:9
reply to PX Eliezer70


FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
reply to La Luna
said by La Luna:

I've no doubt the prosecution probably pushed him over the edge, and yes, the prosecutor is to blame for that. But it appears that he had issues long before that started.

I don't want to get into a debate over what caused him to do what he did, that is something we will probably never know.

More in that vein:
»www.loopinsight.com/2013/01/12/h···d-at-26/

Swartz was also an information activist who often worked outside the law and suffered the consequences. He downloaded and publicly released Federal court documents stored in the government’s PACER database, kicking off an investigation by the FBI. At the time of his death, Swartz was being prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney for Massachusetts for violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act in connection with his unauthorized access to MIT’s computer network to download a large amount of files from JSTOR, an online repository of academic journal articles.

Some have speculated that the specter of prosecution and imprisonment in connection with the JSTOR incident drove Swartz to suicide. Doctorow didn’t discount the possibility, but also noted that Swartz had suffered with depression. Swartz himself talked about his depression and suicidal ideation publicly in comments he made after parting company with Condé Nast following its acquisition of Reddit in 2006.


--
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury.

Just Bob
Premium
join:2000-08-13
Spring Hill, FL
»lessig.tumblr.com/post/403474630···as-bully
The billions of snippets of sadness and bewilderment spinning across the Net confirm who this amazing boy was to all of us. But as I’ve read these aches, there’s one strain I wish we could resist:

Please don’t pathologize this story.

No doubt it is a certain crazy that brings a person as loved as Aaron was loved (and he was surrounded in NY by people who loved him) to do what Aaron did. It angers me that he did what he did. But if we’re going to learn from this, we can’t let slide what brought him here.
--
"...an imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics." Plutarch
Judging other people is easy. Understanding them can break your heart.

Kearnstd
Space Elf
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Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to PX Eliezer70
I doubt there was any copyright violation, I figure since universities get public dollars in some form or another that most of this work is actually public domain. Just like images from the Hubble Telescope are public domain because it was helped along via public dollars.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


Blackbird
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Fort Wayne, IN
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Reviews:
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reply to AVD
said by AVD:

he had a license to the content. The bulk downloading was probably a violation of the license as well as the "intent to distribute". But he did not hack anything.

If what you note is correct, I agree. However, I was simply going by information in the article cited in the OP:
quote:
... Prosecutors said Swartz hacked into MIT's system in November of 2010 after breaking into a computer wiring closet on campus. Prosecutors said he intended to distribute the articles on file-sharing websites. ...
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville

PX Eliezer70
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Hutt River
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reply to PX Eliezer70
In any event, we've had people who did far [more] actual harm to our country and/or government, who were prosecuted with much [less] vigor.


FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
said by PX Eliezer70:

In any event, we've had people who did far [more] actual harm to our country and/or government, who were prosecuted with much [less] vigor.

This was typical prosecutor action - throw the book at them to get a plea bargain. It happens every single day all over the country. I am sure if Swartz & his attorney were open to a deal, he wouldn't have served any time. But people with principles and certainty of their rightness often pay a higher price when they do something illegal that they think is morally right.
--
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury.

PX Eliezer70
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Hutt River
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Reviews:
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said by FFH5:

This was typical prosecutor action....

I don't know.

This was Massachusetts, which has a long tradition back to the Salem Witch trials.

(Yes I know this was a federal prosecution....)

And more recently there, a family named Amirault who owned a nursery school were falsely accused of a slew of absurd child sex acts---and railroaded---utterly and vindictively railroaded---by a prosecutor who wanted to run for office. (Sounds familiar, a prosecutor wanting to run for office).

THAT was documented at length by the [highly conservative] writer Dorothy Rabinowitz of the Wall Street Journal.

Just Bob
Premium
join:2000-08-13
Spring Hill, FL
reply to Blackbird
I have no doubt the prosecutors said that at one time, but the door was unlocked and there was no sign restricting access to the wiring closet. The trespass charge was dropped.

As to the unlocked door, that isn't uncommon. I knew a guy who found a door to a vertical cabling truck, leaned over to see what was down there, and fell in head first. Computer operators on the first floor had to rescue him. Embarrassing.

As to hacking, not so much. He did have to change his MAC address at one point. He wrote a script to automate downloading the articles to which he had legal access.

He may have violated the JSTOR TOS. Two federal courts have ruled on that issue in other cases. One court called violating the terms of service a crime. The other disagreed. If TOS violation is now a federal crime, we have a very large criminal class. That is an issue that must be resolved.
--
"...an imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics." Plutarch
Judging other people is easy. Understanding them can break your heart.


ashrc4
Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia
reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by PX Eliezer70:

In any event, we've had people who did far [more] actual harm to our country and/or government, who were prosecuted with much [less] vigor.

This was typical prosecutor action - throw the book at them to get a plea bargain. It happens every single day all over the country. I am sure if Swartz & his attorney were open to a deal, he wouldn't have served any time. But people with principles and certainty of their rightness often pay a higher price when they do something illegal that they think is morally right.

I wonder what considerations for the alleged planned release of documents held Aaron back from releasing them where....perhaps some forms of "doing right" weren't formalize yet. The fact that nun were released was showing his desire for change to access of knowledge in a good way.
--
Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT!


Link Logger
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join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

1 recommendation

Of course suicide is a sad affair and my condolences to his family and friends but I certainly don't see him as some kind of information martyr, he is just another 20 something who thought everyone else was an idiot. Hello kid those older generations invented the internet (might want to look into the problem that Tim Berners-Lee was trying to solve when he 'invented' the WWW) and certainly if they wanted the research to be public they would have published it on the internet as such (I have), so he was trying to solve a problem that didn't exist in a way that wasn't legal, hardly stuff worthy of a martyr or social hero. Content creators have every right to their content and if they choose to make it private, then what right does someone else have to decide otherwise.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

Just Bob
Premium
join:2000-08-13
Spring Hill, FL
Content creators have nothing to say in the matter. The copyright belongs to the publisher of the journal. You might be a bit behind on the story line. Let me help.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_Works_Act

»chronicle.com/article/Who-Gets-t···/130403/

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act

vimeo.com/22633948

--
"...an imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics." Plutarch
Judging other people is easy. Understanding them can break your heart.


ashrc4
Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia
reply to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

Content creators have every right to their content and if they choose to make it private, then what right does someone else have to decide otherwise.

DNA even gets copy written, and the journals on that for a small price would be o.k. but certain types of knowledge (like DNA) should be free to all those that could do/lead to betterment for us all. Not saying all of it, but some form of change from those that use our/peoples money to do this type of research should have a fairer system in place ahead of their personal profits. I guessing thats inline with how Aaron saw it.
--
Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT!


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to Just Bob
'if we get above the din' otherwise known as ignoring the otherside's arguments.

So in the scientific community, what does a journal publisher do. First off they review the papers (peer review) that sent into them and if they are a respected journal the people doing the reviews aren't hacks and take the time and resources to properly review the papers given to them, then they only publish the papers deemed worthy (and even then some papers are questionable can get though, but you should see some of the crap they filter out), and for example the OMAE (one place where I've published papers) arranged an annual conference where we could present and answer questions etc about our paper and share and grow information with other attendees. If your a researcher this is worth something to you. I can assure you that Gita Gopinath publishes and attends lots of conferences (»www.economics.harvard.edu/facult···gopinath) so the while the internet is one source of her research its far from her only source, which invalidates the statement that everything she needs is on the internet and hence this CERN presentation, because its simply not true.

Again if I want information to be publicly available I can publish it on the internet, which still excludes some members of society who don't have a computer/internet or otherwise access to such, but for those that do, its freely available. However you don't have the benefit of peer review etc, so maybe its brilliant, maybe its utter crap, but you have take the time and effort to decide that for yourself.

Now as someone who has sat on PhD candidate reviews as a guest, I can tell you most of the world's research papers are read by a handful of people then promptly filed and forgotten. Really the last original idea was at least several hundreds of years ago and most ideas are mere derivatives of existing ideas, hence why you can't patent an idea and why I like copyright as it truly is a protection of an expression of an idea which doesn't limit the creativity of others as much as patents are now being used to do.

Even in the video the claim that copyright is a property right is agreed upon, so does that mean that a creator can sell that property to the publisher which is the common practise in the music industry as the artist really isn't interested in the business only in the art and if they had to do both, it would severely limit their artist time as it means they would have to manage the business side to put food on the table. What do you do for a living, as you likely specialize in some task as to optimize your profitable output, sounds like a artist/publisher arrangement doesn't it.

I have published papers in journals (they were granted permission to print the paper), and I have papers which weren't submitted to journals for publication (if they were to appear in a journal then we would sue them on copyright infringement as they have no right to publish them). None of my research has been publicly funded, so that argument doesn't hold water at all. Even in the case of Universities, what does the public fund exactly?

We built this world? Really what was his contribution? Typically everything in this world that has been built, has been built by a surprisingly few people. The internet, World Wide Web, how many designers at Boeing? I think some people are confused that if they fly on a plane that means they must be involved in building it. They might be interested, but their contribution to building it is zero. Dam few people in this world are responsible for everything which affects them, and we typically look at those people as having something wrong with them (that dude living off the land in some remote location).

I find it interesting that CERN is presenting this video given Tim invented the WWW as a way to share papers with other academics who had access to the net at the time, or would have access to the net. Internet works great and you can put up a blog and publish your brains out and even make it free and academics know that (they search blogs etc to), but they also subscribe to journals and attend conferences because the internet isn't enough and I'm not just saying that the material on the internet is lacking, I'm also saying it lack the ability to share information at the level researchers need. The internet hasn't been able to replace face to face meetings and live discussion of ideas etc and perhaps never will.

So for example lets consider his search for information about Jaundice. Hmmm $435 to access this information, what internet did he search and why? Googling Jaundice returns millions of hits, so why use his costly academic search system? Could it be that he knows that the articles will have been though peer review etc and hence will save him time from surfing through tons of crap articles or articles which aren't really related to his topic? It must have some value to him, other wise he would have just gone to Google, but he didn't.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


ashrc4
Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia
As public access used to be about going to the library and cheap access was just a library card sign up and card fee away folks could easily access/afford the knowledge they seek.
The video shows how that access is now, online only, and out for a bigger (far bigger) slice of it. Library's are changing and most of us hoped that our computer via internet would vastly improve this, with the exceptions, journals are not one of them.
--
Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT!


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to ashrc4
said by ashrc4:

said by Link Logger:

Content creators have every right to their content and if they choose to make it private, then what right does someone else have to decide otherwise.

DNA even gets copy written, and the journals on that for a small price would be o.k. but certain types of knowledge (like DNA) should be free to all those that could do/lead to betterment for us all. Not saying all of it, but some form of change from those that use our/peoples money to do this type of research should have a fairer system in place ahead of their personal profits. I guessing thats inline with how Aaron saw it.

Knowledge is often a double edge sword, DNA research, could be a benefit, might not be. For example finding an easy test for DNA markers for some forms of cancer, good, using DNA programming to create a race of super humans, maybe not good particularly if they are intent on enslaving 'lessor' humans. Sometimes its the shear costs of research that is the controlling factor and enables society to determine what research it wants.

The other question always comes down to who gets to decide what is beneficial? Aaron Swartz thought free information would be beneficial, whereas I think it would kill the creation of new information. For every successful inventor who makes a million, there are million inventors who ended fin the red, take away the reward and the remaining untouched risk kills the motivation.

I find it amazing that in our world of run away consumerism that people now expect free knowledge like its going to save them or something. The fact is people just don't value anything anymore as everything is just given to them without any real effort on their behalf and its killing them, society and the the planet. Maybe its time for expectations to change.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


ashrc4
Premium
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australia

1 edit
said by Link Logger:

The fact is people just don't value anything anymore as everything is just given to them without any real effort on their behalf and its killing them, society and the the planet. Maybe its time for expectations to change.

I agree with all the of last post and the quote too although as separate from each other???

My ideas may be deemed to radical on the solution side to the quote, so i won't mention them.
--
Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT!


ashrc4
Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia
reply to Link Logger
said by Link Logger See Profileq :

The other question always comes down to who gets to decide what is beneficial? Aaron Swartz thought free information would be beneficial, whereas I think it would kill the creation of new information. For every successful inventor who makes a million, there are million inventors who ended fin the red, take away the reward and the remaining untouched risk kills the motivation.

Is it fair that an unsuccessful outgoing CEO gets a 10 million handshake whilst and leader in research only gets profits by tying up copyright on his findings. The brain drain saga continues.
--
Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT!


Link Logger
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Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to ashrc4
The problem with the internet is its a stupid machine, its a tool, little more then dumb hammer. Anyone can voice any opinion or post information which can run the full spectrum of brilliant to harmful and the internet doesn't care, nor is it meant to care as some folks are dead set against censoring anything and given the internet is global it sadly tends to sink to the lowest levels of world expectations or opinions, it rarely rises. Even some total whack group is free to spew their agenda of totally craziness from somewhere, but on the upside you don't have to read or agree with everything that is on the internet. Of course lots of groups like to label you with something if you don't agree with them as some kind of badge of 'human deficiency' (you are a insert-whatever-here) and that tendency hasn't been lost on the internet.

Now given the internet is simply a dumb machine it means it can also be manipulate or its behavior be forecasted so people with agenda's (which pretty much includes everyone on the planet) can use and does use it to promote their agenda whatever it maybe.

If you want to shape the world, don't waste your time on the present, its pretty much cast in stone, shape the future. So trying to shape the internet isn't likely to get very far, shape what comes after the internet.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to ashrc4
said by ashrc4:

Is it fair that an unsuccessful outgoing CEO gets a 10 million handshake whilst and leader in research only gets profits by tying up copyright on his findings. The brain drain saga continues.

Fair is a fairy tale, humans work via contracts (formal or otherwise) and even then they are often pooched. That CEO got a golden handshake because someone agreed to it as terms of their employment and no one opposed it (hello shareholders for example), so in the opinion of those making the decision the terms were agreeable. How many people really care that the CEO or owners of Walmart are making buckets of dough, apparently not many as Walmart gives them what they want, cheap stuff, so in a sense everyone is happy with how the system works.

I would agree that our world values are completely screwed and innovation and artist pursuits are vastly undervalued, but again people have proven repeatedly that those things are of little value (ie they don't want to invest in them), or they don't value the work and take them without payment or otherwise ignore the terms of the copyright.

I'm not sure there is a brain drain as I think its just not worth it to be a brain anymore, hence declining involvement/enrollments in those areas.

Blake
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Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

Just Bob
Premium
join:2000-08-13
Spring Hill, FL
Once upon a time long ago and far away, universities published the scientific journals. We outgrew that system and the system didn't really work all that well anyhow as the number of journals exploded. What we have now is a continuing privatization, commercialization and monetization of knowledge and the universities themselves.

Those who are connected to universities or have access to major libraries that subscribe to JSTOR have free and easy access. Others can only gain access at great expense. The number of public libraries subscribing to JSTOR has decreased as the cost has increased.

Part of the problems is that one size doesn't fit all. What may work for MPAA and the RIAA doesn't work for all intellectual property. It almost seems as if big money is trying to corner the market on knowledge.

You may see thing differently. That's okay. It's good to have choices.
--
"...an imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics." Plutarch
Judging other people is easy. Understanding them can break your heart.

Kearnstd
Space Elf
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Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Link Logger
the CEO pay issue is the same as the movie stars make too much issue.

As long as a hand full of employers are willing to pay the millions they will be able to hire those asking the millions.

And really once you exit the banking industry nobody cares what the CEO makes. And people only care about the banks because it was their tax dollars that allowed the banks to not go chapter 11.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
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Calgary, AB
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reply to Just Bob
said by Just Bob:

Once upon a time long ago and far away, universities published the scientific journals. We outgrew that system and the system didn't really work all that well anyhow as the number of journals exploded. What we have now is a continuing privatization, commercialization and monetization of knowledge and the universities themselves.

Simply because the public doesn't want to pay for it, so Universities increasing turn to corporations for funding. Research has been this way pretty much forever. You might have a brilliant idea but who is going to fund your research into that idea? How do you get 'public' money to do your research or is that even possible? Things like »www.kickstarter.com/ are certainly interesting as its a way to fund/build a product/project/etc and have the public fund it and somehow reward those who helped make it possible, but even then its limited as to how much funding can be raised and most kickstarted projects end up not making it.

said by Just Bob:

Those who are connected to universities or have access to major libraries that subscribe to JSTOR have free and easy access. Others can only gain access at great expense. The number of public libraries subscribing to JSTOR has decreased as the cost has increased.

Again I would ask why do researchers subscribe to it at the price they charge, because it provides value for the money. Why do they submit papers to it, because that is where their peers look for qualified papers. Simply it works for their industry, so it continues to be the system of choice.

said by Just Bob:

Part of the problems is that one size doesn't fit all. What may work for MPAA and the RIAA doesn't work for all intellectual property. It almost seems as if big money is trying to corner the market on knowledge.

I'm not sure big money is trying to corner the market, or they are the only ones who can or are willing to invest in research and having multiple processes only tend to make things more expensive and confusing as how do you decide who uses what process and when and how do you make it fair and fair in who's eyes. For example private schools, some feel they are unfair others feel they are fair, but they are a solution to the one size doesn't fit all.

said by Just Bob:

You may see thing differently. That's okay. It's good to have choices.

Choices are good.

Now I used to be a researcher and created ideas that lead to products and companies etc but found out that I hated it, as a researcher my interest was in the product and how it worked for people, however investors/shareholders/etc only cared about how much money they were going to make and so that is what ultimately ends up driving and unless there are people who are willing to pay researchers without expectation of return, that is the system which will remain in place. Certainly people like Bill Gates and his foundation have had some impact, but not enough to change things much.

Now I sit in my office and build little projects that I'm willing to fund myself and I might publish a paper or a blog entry, but likely not as its the idea creation process I love and so I do what makes me happy, but of course that means I don't make money off of these ideas, but making money came at a price I didn't really enjoy.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


ashrc4
Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia
reply to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

said by ashrc4:

Is it fair that an unsuccessful outgoing CEO gets a 10 million handshake whilst and leader in research only gets profits by tying up copyright on his findings. The brain drain saga continues.

Fair is a fairy tale,.........

Fairer is a reality, fair is often a compromise for fairer..... which means the same......what?.......my last EMU told me that
--
Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT!