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Liberty

join:2005-06-12
Tucson, AZ
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to nunya

Re: Brand names

I am with pike and some of the others
WE are to blame for the crap we have to pick from these days because so many always select the cheapest item on the shelf

If you were a manufacturer, would you stand up for your employees and high quality standards while you watch your sales plummet thru the floor?

WE are the job creators, not the 1%ers
We either create a job for a Chinese worker by buying their crap
Or we create a job for an American worker building a better product - for more money (sorry I can not survive on $80/week Chinese paycheck)


scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to Chinabound

So, would it be fair to say that, after transferring our manufacturing know-how and (quite often) the very machines to do that manufacturing over to China, that they now produce and keep the good stuff for themselves (at reasonable prices), while shipping the junk back home to us? I mean, this seems like it would be an expected outcome of the whole penny-pinching off-shoring process. Also very Darwinian, where companies that are greedy and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had.



Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

said by scross:

and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had.

When customers are no longer willing to pay for quality, a reputation for same is no longer worth all that much.


54067323

join:2012-09-25
Tuscaloosa, AL

1 edit
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

They were very expensive, but I use them for commercial use, so it was worth the money.

The Sawsall that grew legs cost me something like $150 twenty or so years back, the new Sawsall was $120 so you know something had to be cut and it was the quality of the build.

Yea I know processes become more efficient materials improved yada yada yada but when I saw the price of the new Sawzall I had a feeling it wasn’t going to be the same quality tool and the guy at the tool supply alluded to that but I was so stuck on the brand I ignored his solid advice. .

I whip tools like a team of horses so I need tools that can take a licking and keep on ticking and am willing to pay a higher price for quality, but that is rapidly becoming a tough nut to crack.



tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·G4 Communications
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting
reply to stevek1949

said by stevek1949:

I am not sure that we didn't contribute to the downfall of quality to ourselves.

I agree but only to a degree.

There used to be a range of quality, If you wanted a disposable cheap tool they were available as well as more expensive high quality tools. Each manufacture brought a different set of trade-offs and values to the party. Now where brand names are just marketing terms and there are only a few different companies that actually manufacture tools that is no longer the case. We now have Detroit inspired name-plate engineering on a massive scale. Used to be limited to Detroit automobiles in the 50-60 but now is pervasive.

/tom


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

I like Bosch, but it appears as thought they are taking the same path as Milwaukee. Everything is going to China. I have yet to see a quality power tool from China.

Things with names like Bosch may have come down a notch in quality (if they did), but that company has a great name for taking care of the situation if something does fail. Sure it sucks to be out a tool for a week, but they will mail off a replacement part or the whole tool if needed. Even on their other low-end low-quality tools they sell under the SKIL name (Bosch owned), and even when out of warranty.

Been there.


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to tschmidt

There used to be a range when people would buy a range. Range of products started to disappear when people started to buy the cheapest in droves.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain



PeeWee
Premium
join:2001-10-21
Madera, CA
reply to nunya

Bullshit. The quality dropped long before the prices.



jrs8084
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Statesville, NC
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

said by PeeWee:

Bullshit. The quality dropped long before the prices.

That is what I was thinking. Sure, we (consumers) reward the race to the bottom by voting for the cheapest price.

But, there also are fun management games called "cost reduction". Sure, it is great to become more efficient and push on your suppliers to do the same. But, that is only sustainable for so long-there only is so much low hanging fruit.

Who cares if sales are great and we are quite efficient and profitable? Cost reduction is the game everybody else is playing, so we better play as well. Let's focus on the short run and start cheapening the product to make our annual goals!!

I wonder how those Toro designed motors are working out. (I honestly don't know.)


Msradell
P.E.
Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
reply to CylonRed

said by telco_mtl:

I know for hand tools im not a huge fan of stanley anymore but Chanell lock still seems great. Old appliance names like RCA, Sunbeam, GE, Moffat, Litton, Inglis, etc are all made by others under licence these days, so brands dont mean anything anymore in consumer grade product...

Actually, GE makes everything themselves although some of it is made offshore. They have recently started making several lines of new high-end products at appliance Park in Louisville that are receiving excellent reviews.
said by CylonRed:

There used to be a range when people would buy a range. Range of products started to disappear when people started to buy the cheapest in droves.

I personally think the reason people started buying cheaper products is because they all performed the same. If you're going to have to throw it away anyway you might just as well by the cheaper one.

Hellrazor
Bah Humbug

join:2002-02-02
Abyss, PA
Reviews:
·Service Electric..
reply to nunya

Everything is made to be thrown away and not repaired. I have old circ pumps at work that are 30 years old and still going. The new pumps die every other year and need to be rebuilt or replaced.

Dewalt = garbage. Bad experiences buying them for the guys at work.
Craftsman = crapsman. Friends don't let friends buy craftsman power tools.

Nunya mentioned Lithonia. They are the biggest pile of turds I ever encountered. I have a building at work with a ton of their commercial troffer and can lights installed and have a heck of a time finding repair parts. My local supply houses look at me like I have 3 eyes when I want parts for those fixtures. Home Depot sells the crappiest Lithonia products I have ever seen. Shop lights, etc.

Almost all of the old companies that made great products have been bought out by a company that makes low quality tools. Now the low quality tools have a good old label attached to them.

I have a bunch of Makita drill kits at work. I finally killed a battery on a 4 or 5 year old 18V kit I use. The same kits my Maint mechanics use are still intact and working. I just bought all new sets for my Maint Mechanics and gave their older sets to our custodians who do small repairs.



Lurch77
Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4
reply to nunya

Here is a good one for you. We all know the Kohler brand name, and most people consider it quality plumbing. I know people that work for them here in WI. Many of the highest priced premium products they make are made offshore, while the cheaper stuff is made here in WI. Figure that one out.


telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to DannyZ

said by DannyZ:

Yes, Channellock is still high quality, made in Meadville Pennsylvania. It is owned and run by the fifth generation of the family of the person who started the enterprise. They still treat their employees with a personal touch.

i have a set of lineman pliers that ive abused from them... bought em in 1999 still good as new

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to Msradell

said by Msradell:

said by telco_mtl:

I know for hand tools im not a huge fan of stanley anymore but Chanell lock still seems great. Old appliance names like RCA, Sunbeam, GE, Moffat, Litton, Inglis, etc are all made by others under licence these days, so brands dont mean anything anymore in consumer grade product...

Actually, GE makes everything themselves although some of it is made offshore. They have recently started making several lines of new high-end products at appliance Park in Louisville that are receiving excellent reviews.

i dont know what you mean, for years large GE appliances were produced under licence by Camco, now MABE is their big supplier. the MABE dryer plant in montreal (makes GE dryers) is moving production to mexico

Zach1
Premium
join:2006-11-26
NW Minnesota

said by telco_mtl:

said by Msradell:

said by telco_mtl:

I know for hand tools im not a huge fan of stanley anymore but Chanell lock still seems great. Old appliance names like RCA, Sunbeam, GE, Moffat, Litton, Inglis, etc are all made by others under licence these days, so brands dont mean anything anymore in consumer grade product...

Actually, GE makes everything themselves although some of it is made offshore. They have recently started making several lines of new high-end products at appliance Park in Louisville that are receiving excellent reviews.

i dont know what you mean, for years large GE appliances were produced under licence by Camco, now MABE is their big supplier. the MABE dryer plant in montreal (makes GE dryers) is moving production to mexico

Probably going down there to be neighbors with BRP
--
Zach


SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
Premium
join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
kudos:1
reply to telco_mtl

said by telco_mtl:

said by Msradell:

said by telco_mtl:

I know for hand tools im not a huge fan of stanley anymore but Chanell lock still seems great. Old appliance names like RCA, Sunbeam, GE, Moffat, Litton, Inglis, etc are all made by others under licence these days, so brands dont mean anything anymore in consumer grade product...

Actually, GE makes everything themselves although some of it is made offshore. They have recently started making several lines of new high-end products at appliance Park in Louisville that are receiving excellent reviews.

i dont know what you mean, for years large GE appliances were produced under licence by Camco, now MABE is their big supplier. the MABE dryer plant in montreal (makes GE dryers) is moving production to mexico

I have had such horrific luck with GE appliances that I have vowed never to buy one again. Just terrible quality IMHO... every single one I've ever purchased has had major issues.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by SwedishRider:

I have had such horrific luck with GE appliances that I have vowed never to buy one again. Just terrible quality IMHO... every single one I've ever purchased has had major issues.

i know how you feel, 2 months in and our mexican mabe ge washer broke all the mounts for the tub


Xioden
Premium
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to scross

said by scross:

So, would it be fair to say that, after transferring our manufacturing know-how and (quite often) the very machines to do that manufacturing over to China, that they now produce and keep the good stuff for themselves (at reasonable prices), while shipping the junk back home to us? I mean, this seems like it would be an expected outcome of the whole penny-pinching off-shoring process. Also very Darwinian, where companies that are greedy and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had.

It's more just that companies have figured out people are more than willing to have to buy new crap every year or two, so why bother making stuff that will last for pretty much the rest of their life? China just happens to provide lower cost labor. Said laborer will put together something the same way regardless if it's made out of some super strong carbon-alloy tungsten fortified steel or some crappy reprocessed hodgepodge of metals they pulled from a scrap yard.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
reply to pike

Chicken or egg...


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to Steve

said by Steve:

said by Bob4:

You can thank Wal-Mart.

No: you are confusing an effect with the vehicle by which an effect makes itself known. It's your fellow man that you have to thank for this, as he has made it perfectly clear he that he shops on price alone.

Which is why companies like BMW are out of business because people refuse to pay that much money for a car.


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

said by Bob4:

Which is why companies like BMW are out of business because people refuse to pay that much money for a car.

Nobody could possibly believe that every market operates exactly like — or even a little bit like — every other market.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

Until Wal-Mart starts selling cars.

It's the availability of crap for cheap prices that causes people to buy the cheap crap.



Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

1 recommendation

said by Bob4:

It's the availability of crap for cheap prices that causes people to buy the cheap crap.

The technical term for this is "filling a market need", and bemoaning Wal-Mart is like blaming your house for the appetite of the termites.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

I disagree.


hoyleysox
Premium
join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA
reply to nunya

I recently participated in a focus group on tools where the facilitator asked a bunch of dudes to expound about how tools make us feel, none of us seemed seemed like professional artisans. My takeaway was that the brand who sponsored the focus group was trying to sell the "doing" of a project and the "being" the cool guy depicted working.



CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to Bob4

Really - they are out of business?????? Trust me - they are not anywhere NEAR out of business.



Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

said by CylonRed:

Really - they are out of business?????? Trust me - they are not anywhere NEAR out of business.

He was attempting to demonstrate a counter-example to my claim by way of sarcasm.

scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to Steve

said by Steve:

said by scross:

and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had.

When customers are no longer willing to pay for quality, a reputation for same is no longer worth all that much.

Yeah, I'm not really buying this argument any longer. The Walmarts of the world keep saying that they are just trying to keep prices low (funny, though, how prices seem to keep going up and up), but they are notorious for continually going back to their suppliers and telling them to squeeze out more costs, which almost always means lowering quality. And most of this cost savings just goes directly into their own (Walmart's) pocket.

Sometimes only a nickel or a dime here or a quarter there is all it takes to create a quality product instead of a crap product. I remember having a long discussion about this years ago with a Maytag rep, back when Maytag still meant "quality", and he pointed out exactly where they spent those extra nickels, dimes, and quarters. And I've had discussions with engineers from local manufacturers, who were complaining about being ordered to make 5 to 10 percent cost cuts in their products every year (which meant using thinner metal here and cheaper quality components there and so on), until their products could barely survive past the warranty period, so that the company could please Wall Street with higher profits - NOT so they could lower prices.

scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to Xioden

said by Xioden:

said by scross:

So, would it be fair to say that, after transferring our manufacturing know-how and (quite often) the very machines to do that manufacturing over to China, that they now produce and keep the good stuff for themselves (at reasonable prices), while shipping the junk back home to us? I mean, this seems like it would be an expected outcome of the whole penny-pinching off-shoring process. Also very Darwinian, where companies that are greedy and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had.

It's more just that companies have figured out people are more than willing to have to buy new crap every year or two, so why bother making stuff that will last for pretty much the rest of their life? China just happens to provide lower cost labor. Said laborer will put together something the same way regardless if it's made out of some super strong carbon-alloy tungsten fortified steel or some crappy reprocessed hodgepodge of metals they pulled from a scrap yard.

Well, given the choice between cheap Chinese-made crap and expensive Chinese-made crap, who wouldn't go with the cheaper stuff? And the Chinese have gone on record (in print, in America) as saying that they are more than happy to ship us "made to fail" products, because they think that we will just keep buying them over and over. But they seem to not grasp the concept of "other options" - meaning that when we've been burned by their crap once or twice, we will start looking elsewhere - regardless of brand name, regardless of price.


Raphion

join:2000-10-14
Samsara
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to 54067323

said by 54067323:

Opened it up and found the steel drive gear on the motor had split the Delrin gear it drove, now I realize Delrin is a self lubricating material stronger then nylon but what happened to using steel gears with grease.

Delrin gears in a hammer drill?! Unbelievable. Delrin in a child's toy sure, but in a DRILL? Obscene.