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Hellrazor
Bah Humbug
join:2002-02-02
Abyss, PA

Hellrazor to nunya

Member

to nunya

Re: Brand names

Everything is made to be thrown away and not repaired. I have old circ pumps at work that are 30 years old and still going. The new pumps die every other year and need to be rebuilt or replaced.

Dewalt = garbage. Bad experiences buying them for the guys at work.
Craftsman = crapsman. Friends don't let friends buy craftsman power tools.

Nunya mentioned Lithonia. They are the biggest pile of turds I ever encountered. I have a building at work with a ton of their commercial troffer and can lights installed and have a heck of a time finding repair parts. My local supply houses look at me like I have 3 eyes when I want parts for those fixtures. Home Depot sells the crappiest Lithonia products I have ever seen. Shop lights, etc.

Almost all of the old companies that made great products have been bought out by a company that makes low quality tools. Now the low quality tools have a good old label attached to them.

I have a bunch of Makita drill kits at work. I finally killed a battery on a 4 or 5 year old 18V kit I use. The same kits my Maint mechanics use are still intact and working. I just bought all new sets for my Maint Mechanics and gave their older sets to our custodians who do small repairs.

Lurch77
Premium Member
join:2001-11-22
Green Bay, WI

Lurch77 to nunya

Premium Member

to nunya
Here is a good one for you. We all know the Kohler brand name, and most people consider it quality plumbing. I know people that work for them here in WI. Many of the highest priced premium products they make are made offshore, while the cheaper stuff is made here in WI. Figure that one out.
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

telco_mtl to DannyZ

Member

to DannyZ
said by DannyZ:

Yes, Channellock is still high quality, made in Meadville Pennsylvania. It is owned and run by the fifth generation of the family of the person who started the enterprise. They still treat their employees with a personal touch.

i have a set of lineman pliers that ive abused from them... bought em in 1999 still good as new
telco_mtl

telco_mtl to Msradell

Member

to Msradell
said by Msradell:

said by telco_mtl:

I know for hand tools im not a huge fan of stanley anymore but Chanell lock still seems great. Old appliance names like RCA, Sunbeam, GE, Moffat, Litton, Inglis, etc are all made by others under licence these days, so brands dont mean anything anymore in consumer grade product...

Actually, GE makes everything themselves although some of it is made offshore. They have recently started making several lines of new high-end products at appliance Park in Louisville that are receiving excellent reviews.

i dont know what you mean, for years large GE appliances were produced under licence by Camco, now MABE is their big supplier. the MABE dryer plant in montreal (makes GE dryers) is moving production to mexico
Zach
Premium Member
join:2006-11-26
Llano, CA

Zach

Premium Member

said by telco_mtl:

said by Msradell:

said by telco_mtl:

I know for hand tools im not a huge fan of stanley anymore but Chanell lock still seems great. Old appliance names like RCA, Sunbeam, GE, Moffat, Litton, Inglis, etc are all made by others under licence these days, so brands dont mean anything anymore in consumer grade product...

Actually, GE makes everything themselves although some of it is made offshore. They have recently started making several lines of new high-end products at appliance Park in Louisville that are receiving excellent reviews.

i dont know what you mean, for years large GE appliances were produced under licence by Camco, now MABE is their big supplier. the MABE dryer plant in montreal (makes GE dryers) is moving production to mexico

Probably going down there to be neighbors with BRP
XXXXXXXXXXX1
Premium Member
join:2006-01-11
Beverly Hills, CA

XXXXXXXXXXX1 to telco_mtl

Premium Member

to telco_mtl
said by telco_mtl:

said by Msradell:

said by telco_mtl:

I know for hand tools im not a huge fan of stanley anymore but Chanell lock still seems great. Old appliance names like RCA, Sunbeam, GE, Moffat, Litton, Inglis, etc are all made by others under licence these days, so brands dont mean anything anymore in consumer grade product...

Actually, GE makes everything themselves although some of it is made offshore. They have recently started making several lines of new high-end products at appliance Park in Louisville that are receiving excellent reviews.

i dont know what you mean, for years large GE appliances were produced under licence by Camco, now MABE is their big supplier. the MABE dryer plant in montreal (makes GE dryers) is moving production to mexico

I have had such horrific luck with GE appliances that I have vowed never to buy one again. Just terrible quality IMHO... every single one I've ever purchased has had major issues.
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

telco_mtl

Member

said by XXXXXXXXXXX1:

I have had such horrific luck with GE appliances that I have vowed never to buy one again. Just terrible quality IMHO... every single one I've ever purchased has had major issues.

i know how you feel, 2 months in and our mexican mabe ge washer broke all the mounts for the tub

Xioden
Premium Member
join:2008-06-10
Monticello, NY

1 recommendation

Xioden to scross

Premium Member

to scross
said by scross:

So, would it be fair to say that, after transferring our manufacturing know-how and (quite often) the very machines to do that manufacturing over to China, that they now produce and keep the good stuff for themselves (at reasonable prices), while shipping the junk back home to us? I mean, this seems like it would be an expected outcome of the whole penny-pinching off-shoring process. Also very Darwinian, where companies that are greedy and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had.

It's more just that companies have figured out people are more than willing to have to buy new crap every year or two, so why bother making stuff that will last for pretty much the rest of their life? China just happens to provide lower cost labor. Said laborer will put together something the same way regardless if it's made out of some super strong carbon-alloy tungsten fortified steel or some crappy reprocessed hodgepodge of metals they pulled from a scrap yard.
Bob4
Account deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

Bob4 to pike

Member

to pike
Chicken or egg...
Bob4

Bob4 to Steve

Member

to Steve
said by Steve:

said by Bob4:

You can thank Wal-Mart.

No: you are confusing an effect with the vehicle by which an effect makes itself known. It's your fellow man that you have to thank for this, as he has made it perfectly clear he that he shops on price alone.

Which is why companies like BMW are out of business because people refuse to pay that much money for a car.

Steve
I know your IP address

join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA

Steve

said by Bob4:

Which is why companies like BMW are out of business because people refuse to pay that much money for a car.

Nobody could possibly believe that every market operates exactly like — or even a little bit like — every other market.
Bob4
Account deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

Bob4

Member

Until Wal-Mart starts selling cars.

It's the availability of crap for cheap prices that causes people to buy the cheap crap.

Steve
I know your IP address

join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA

1 recommendation

Steve

said by Bob4:

It's the availability of crap for cheap prices that causes people to buy the cheap crap.

The technical term for this is "filling a market need", and bemoaning Wal-Mart is like blaming your house for the appetite of the termites.
Bob4
Account deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

Bob4

Member

I disagree.
banner
Premium Member
join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA

banner to nunya

Premium Member

to nunya
I recently participated in a focus group on tools where the facilitator asked a bunch of dudes to expound about how tools make us feel, none of us seemed seemed like professional artisans. My takeaway was that the brand who sponsored the focus group was trying to sell the "doing" of a project and the "being" the cool guy depicted working.

CylonRed
MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

CylonRed to Bob4

MVM

to Bob4
Really - they are out of business?????? Trust me - they are not anywhere NEAR out of business.

Steve
I know your IP address

join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA

Steve

said by CylonRed:

Really - they are out of business?????? Trust me - they are not anywhere NEAR out of business.

He was attempting to demonstrate a counter-example to my claim by way of sarcasm.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross to Steve

Member

to Steve
said by Steve:

said by scross:

and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had.

When customers are no longer willing to pay for quality, a reputation for same is no longer worth all that much.

Yeah, I'm not really buying this argument any longer. The Walmarts of the world keep saying that they are just trying to keep prices low (funny, though, how prices seem to keep going up and up), but they are notorious for continually going back to their suppliers and telling them to squeeze out more costs, which almost always means lowering quality. And most of this cost savings just goes directly into their own (Walmart's) pocket.

Sometimes only a nickel or a dime here or a quarter there is all it takes to create a quality product instead of a crap product. I remember having a long discussion about this years ago with a Maytag rep, back when Maytag still meant "quality", and he pointed out exactly where they spent those extra nickels, dimes, and quarters. And I've had discussions with engineers from local manufacturers, who were complaining about being ordered to make 5 to 10 percent cost cuts in their products every year (which meant using thinner metal here and cheaper quality components there and so on), until their products could barely survive past the warranty period, so that the company could please Wall Street with higher profits - NOT so they could lower prices.
scross

scross to Xioden

Member

to Xioden
said by Xioden:

said by scross:

So, would it be fair to say that, after transferring our manufacturing know-how and (quite often) the very machines to do that manufacturing over to China, that they now produce and keep the good stuff for themselves (at reasonable prices), while shipping the junk back home to us? I mean, this seems like it would be an expected outcome of the whole penny-pinching off-shoring process. Also very Darwinian, where companies that are greedy and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had.

It's more just that companies have figured out people are more than willing to have to buy new crap every year or two, so why bother making stuff that will last for pretty much the rest of their life? China just happens to provide lower cost labor. Said laborer will put together something the same way regardless if it's made out of some super strong carbon-alloy tungsten fortified steel or some crappy reprocessed hodgepodge of metals they pulled from a scrap yard.

Well, given the choice between cheap Chinese-made crap and expensive Chinese-made crap, who wouldn't go with the cheaper stuff? And the Chinese have gone on record (in print, in America) as saying that they are more than happy to ship us "made to fail" products, because they think that we will just keep buying them over and over. But they seem to not grasp the concept of "other options" - meaning that when we've been burned by their crap once or twice, we will start looking elsewhere - regardless of brand name, regardless of price.

Raphion
join:2000-10-14
Samsara

Raphion to 54067323

Member

to 54067323
said by 54067323:

Opened it up and found the steel drive gear on the motor had split the Delrin gear it drove, now I realize Delrin is a self lubricating material stronger then nylon but what happened to using steel gears with grease.

Delrin gears in a hammer drill?! Unbelievable. Delrin in a child's toy sure, but in a DRILL? Obscene.
Bob4
Account deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

Bob4 to scross

Member

to scross
said by scross:

they [Wal-Mart] are notorious for continually going back to their suppliers and telling them to squeeze out more costs, which almost always means lowering quality.

That's what I was trying to point out to Steve.
Timmn
join:2000-04-23
Tinley Park, IL

Timmn to nunya

Member

to nunya
Many of the brands you mentioned are now owned by a Chinese company, Techtronic Industries Co. Ltd.

Follow the link below to see the brands that they own:

»www.ttigroup.com/en/our_brands

Steve
I know your IP address

join:2001-03-10
Tustin, CA

Steve to Bob4

to Bob4
said by Bob4:

said by scross:

they [Wal-Mart] are notorious for continually going back to their suppliers and telling them to squeeze out more costs, which almost always means lowering quality.

That's what I was trying to point out to Steve.

I'm fully aware of how Wal-Mart operates, but in a commodity market (which Wal-Mart serves), reductions in costs virtually always results in lower prices to the end consumer: I'm not sure that any sober assessment of the facts can come to any other conclusion. Rollback, anyone?

Wal-Mart can only do this because they proxy the voting-with-their-wallet power that their customers have given them, and their enormous success is testament to their ability to meet the low-prices demanded by their customers.

Now if somebody wants to call this a "race to the bottom", they'll be on far firmer footing, but lots of people are making decisions with their own money to go that direction, which means that our view - preferring quality - is a clear (perhaps overwhelming) minority.

Steve

cableties
Premium Member
join:2005-01-27

cableties to nunya

Premium Member

to nunya
Nunya: I hear ya.
I order jeans from denimexpress. Two years ago I got a pair of Carhartt canvas work jeans. Great jeans but $20 more than Wrangler, Dickies and Key. So I tried Key and their work jeans (5 pocket with little pocket that can hold cell phone not wood ruler). A heavier denim compared to Wrangler and Dickies. and $18.
Last month I ordered another Carhartt "canvas" in diff color. It was thinner grade and tighter than the same #, same size pair I had two years ago. Quality down hill.
As for Black And Decker, they are junk now (Stanley took them over in 2010), but also own DeWalt (combined now with Porter Cable). Dewalt seems to make decent tools, but they also evolve. I find their batteries are more than their tools, so when the batteries die, cheaper to get new tool with batteries.

Talking about something very good but pricey...look up Kitchen Aid Pro Line. They make a toaster now (looks VERY deco) that is $300! (2 slice). I saw one and had toast from it. I want one but not for $300!

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939 to nunya

Premium Member

to nunya
said by nunya:

Milwaukee is a heart breaker. I have many Milwaukee drills from the olden days. They still hum along fine. They were very expensive, but I use them for commercial use, so it was worth the money.
I bought a cordless Milwaukee set a few years ago, and it has been nothing but problems. At least three trips to the repair shop. I FINALLY got the Milwaukee rep to switch out the drill with a new one.
Milwaukee is now owned by Techtronic (Ryobi), thus the dramatic drop in quality.

I like Bosch, but it appears as thought they are taking the same path as Milwaukee. Everything is going to China. I have yet to see a quality power tool from China.

I just bought one of Bosch's higher end 3/8" drills, made in Switzerland. Hilti is still made in Lichtenstein as far as I know.
Liberty
Premium Member
join:2005-06-12
Arizona

Liberty to cableties

Premium Member

to cableties
said by cableties:

Nunya: I hear ya.
I order jeans from denimexpress. Two years ago I got a pair of Carhartt canvas work jeans. Great jeans but $20 more than Wrangler, Dickies and Key. So I tried Key and their work jeans (5 pocket with little pocket that can hold cell phone not wood ruler). A heavier denim compared to Wrangler and Dickies. and $18.
Last month I ordered another Carhartt "canvas" in diff color. It was thinner grade and tighter than the same #, same size pair I had two years ago. Quality down hill.

I have been buying made in USA jeans from Pointer for couple years now
They aren't quite as stylin' as the Wranglers I have been buying for decades but have all American fabric and labor
Cost half again what Wrangers cost

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya

MVM

My Redwing boots crapped out last month (holes in the uppers, worn out soles). They were beyond repair, so I went to the boot store looking for non-Chinese replacements. Nothing that was waterproof. I couldn't believe Redwing had gone down the China path.
I finally ordered from »www.afboots.com/ (I was leery about ordering boots online). They wound up being 1/2 the price of Chinese Redwings.
dogo88
join:2001-09-24
Old Bridge, NJ

dogo88 to Liberty

Member

to Liberty
Bought Pointer jeans but but like you the style wasn't there. I found allamericaclothing.com and they have jeans that are all american made from the cotton to the zipper. Style is similar to Wrangler and Lee. Price is compatible to Levis.
Liberty
Premium Member
join:2005-06-12
Arizona

Liberty to nunya

Premium Member

to nunya
said by nunya:

My Redwing boots crapped out last month (holes in the uppers, worn out soles). They were beyond repair, so I went to the boot store looking for non-Chinese replacements. Nothing that was waterproof. I couldn't believe Redwing had gone down the China path.
I finally ordered from »www.afboots.com/ (I was leery about ordering boots online). They wound up being 1/2 the price of Chinese Redwings.

I have bought Redwings for years & years too and have struggled with their line gradually converting to Chinese
No US models that interest me any longer there

My criteria for purchases now days, first filter is:
Made in USA or not China
Second is trade imbalance with manufacturer's country

The boots I have now are made in Romania (I think) Asolo
Expensive as Redwings and comfortable as hell - time will tell on build quality
Could not find decent US boots to-save-my-sole

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD

sk1939 to Timmn

Premium Member

to Timmn
Close, but it is based in Hong Kong and run by a German who is the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer who also sits on the board of Novatel Wireless Inc.