 SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | reply to Bob
Re: Brand names said by Bob: Which is why companies like BMW are out of business because people refuse to pay that much money for a car.  Nobody could possibly believe that every market operates exactly like — or even a little bit like — every other market. |
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BobAccount deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey | Until Wal-Mart starts selling cars.
It's the availability of crap for cheap prices that causes people to buy the cheap crap. |
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SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | said by Bob: It's the availability of crap for cheap prices that causes people to buy the cheap crap. The technical term for this is "filling a market need", and bemoaning Wal-Mart is like blaming your house for the appetite of the termites. |
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BobAccount deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey | I disagree. |
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| reply to nunya
I recently participated in a focus group on tools where the facilitator asked a bunch of dudes to expound about how tools make us feel, none of us seemed seemed like professional artisans. My takeaway was that the brand who sponsored the focus group was trying to sell the "doing" of a project and the "being" the cool guy depicted working. |
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 CylonRedPremium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County | reply to Bob
Really - they are out of business?????? Trust me - they are not anywhere NEAR out of business. |
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SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | said by CylonRed:Really - they are out of business?????? Trust me - they are not anywhere NEAR out of business. He was attempting to demonstrate a counter-example to my claim by way of sarcasm. |
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scross
join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN | reply to Steve
said by Steve:said by scross: and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had. When customers are no longer willing to pay for quality, a reputation for same is no longer worth all that much. Yeah, I'm not really buying this argument any longer. The Walmarts of the world keep saying that they are just trying to keep prices low (funny, though, how prices seem to keep going up and up), but they are notorious for continually going back to their suppliers and telling them to squeeze out more costs, which almost always means lowering quality. And most of this cost savings just goes directly into their own (Walmart's) pocket.
Sometimes only a nickel or a dime here or a quarter there is all it takes to create a quality product instead of a crap product. I remember having a long discussion about this years ago with a Maytag rep, back when Maytag still meant "quality", and he pointed out exactly where they spent those extra nickels, dimes, and quarters. And I've had discussions with engineers from local manufacturers, who were complaining about being ordered to make 5 to 10 percent cost cuts in their products every year (which meant using thinner metal here and cheaper quality components there and so on), until their products could barely survive past the warranty period, so that the company could please Wall Street with higher profits - NOT so they could lower prices. |
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scross
join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN | reply to Xioden
said by Xioden:said by scross:So, would it be fair to say that, after transferring our manufacturing know-how and (quite often) the very machines to do that manufacturing over to China, that they now produce and keep the good stuff for themselves (at reasonable prices), while shipping the junk back home to us? I mean, this seems like it would be an expected outcome of the whole penny-pinching off-shoring process. Also very Darwinian, where companies that are greedy and stupid enough to do total off-shoring like that ultimately pay the price by losing any reputation for quality that they might have once had.
It's more just that companies have figured out people are more than willing to have to buy new crap every year or two, so why bother making stuff that will last for pretty much the rest of their life? China just happens to provide lower cost labor. Said laborer will put together something the same way regardless if it's made out of some super strong carbon-alloy tungsten fortified steel or some crappy reprocessed hodgepodge of metals they pulled from a scrap yard. Well, given the choice between cheap Chinese-made crap and expensive Chinese-made crap, who wouldn't go with the cheaper stuff? And the Chinese have gone on record (in print, in America) as saying that they are more than happy to ship us "made to fail" products, because they think that we will just keep buying them over and over. But they seem to not grasp the concept of "other options" - meaning that when we've been burned by their crap once or twice, we will start looking elsewhere - regardless of brand name, regardless of price. |
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| reply to MatrixHDV
said by MatrixHDV:Opened it up and found the steel drive gear on the motor had split the Delrin gear it drove, now I realize Delrin is a self lubricating material stronger then nylon but what happened to using steel gears with grease.
Delrin gears in a hammer drill?! Unbelievable. Delrin in a child's toy sure, but in a DRILL? Obscene. |
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BobAccount deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey Reviews:
 ·Optimum Online
| reply to scross
said by scross:they [Wal-Mart] are notorious for continually going back to their suppliers and telling them to squeeze out more costs, which almost always means lowering quality. That's what I was trying to point out to Steve. |
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Timmn
join:2000-04-23
Tinley Park, IL Reviews:
 ·AT&T Yahoo
·CYBERONIC INTERN..
| reply to nunya
Many of the brands you mentioned are now owned by a Chinese company, Techtronic Industries Co. Ltd.
Follow the link below to see the brands that they own:
»www.ttigroup.com/en/our_brands |
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SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | reply to Bob
said by Bob:said by scross:they [Wal-Mart] are notorious for continually going back to their suppliers and telling them to squeeze out more costs, which almost always means lowering quality. That's what I was trying to point out to Steve. I'm fully aware of how Wal-Mart operates, but in a commodity market (which Wal-Mart serves), reductions in costs virtually always results in lower prices to the end consumer: I'm not sure that any sober assessment of the facts can come to any other conclusion. Rollback, anyone?
Wal-Mart can only do this because they proxy the voting-with-their-wallet power that their customers have given them, and their enormous success is testament to their ability to meet the low-prices demanded by their customers.
Now if somebody wants to call this a "race to the bottom", they'll be on far firmer footing, but lots of people are making decisions with their own money to go that direction, which means that our view - preferring quality - is a clear (perhaps overwhelming) minority.
Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Security Consultant | Orange County, California USA | my web site |
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| reply to nunya
Nunya: I hear ya.
I order jeans from denimexpress. Two years ago I got a pair of Carhartt canvas work jeans. Great jeans but $20 more than Wrangler, Dickies and Key. So I tried Key and their work jeans (5 pocket with little pocket that can hold cell phone not wood ruler). A heavier denim compared to Wrangler and Dickies. and $18.
Last month I ordered another Carhartt "canvas" in diff color. It was thinner grade and tighter than the same #, same size pair I had two years ago. Quality down hill.
As for Black And Decker, they are junk now (Stanley took them over in 2010), but also own DeWalt (combined now with Porter Cable). Dewalt seems to make decent tools, but they also evolve. I find their batteries are more than their tools, so when the batteries die, cheaper to get new tool with batteries.
Talking about something very good but pricey...look up Kitchen Aid Pro Line. They make a toaster now (looks VERY deco) that is $300! (2 slice). I saw one and had toast from it. I want one but not for $300! 
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Splat |
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sk1939Premium
join:2010-10-23
Washington, DC
kudos:9 Reviews:
 ·T-Mobile US
| reply to nunya
said by nunya:Milwaukee is a heart breaker. I have many Milwaukee drills from the olden days. They still hum along fine. They were very expensive, but I use them for commercial use, so it was worth the money.
I bought a cordless Milwaukee set a few years ago, and it has been nothing but problems. At least three trips to the repair shop. I FINALLY got the Milwaukee rep to switch out the drill with a new one.
Milwaukee is now owned by Techtronic (Ryobi), thus the dramatic drop in quality.
I like Bosch, but it appears as thought they are taking the same path as Milwaukee. Everything is going to China. I have yet to see a quality power tool from China.
I just bought one of Bosch's higher end 3/8" drills, made in Switzerland. Hilti is still made in Lichtenstein as far as I know. |
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| reply to cableties
said by cableties:Nunya: I hear ya.
I order jeans from denimexpress. Two years ago I got a pair of Carhartt canvas work jeans. Great jeans but $20 more than Wrangler, Dickies and Key. So I tried Key and their work jeans (5 pocket with little pocket that can hold cell phone not wood ruler). A heavier denim compared to Wrangler and Dickies. and $18.
Last month I ordered another Carhartt "canvas" in diff color. It was thinner grade and tighter than the same #, same size pair I had two years ago. Quality down hill.
I have been buying made in USA jeans from Pointer for couple years now
They aren't quite as stylin' as the Wranglers I have been buying for decades but have all American fabric and labor
Cost half again what Wrangers cost |
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 nunyaWho is John Galt?Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:8
·Charter
 ·surpasshosting
 ·voip.ms
| reply to nunya
My Redwing boots crapped out last month (holes in the uppers, worn out soles). They were beyond repair, so I went to the boot store looking for non-Chinese replacements. Nothing that was waterproof. I couldn't believe Redwing had gone down the China path.
I finally ordered from »www.afboots.com/ (I was leery about ordering boots online). They wound up being 1/2 the price of Chinese Redwings.
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If someone refers to herself / himself as a "guru", they probably aren't. |
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dogo88
join:2001-09-24
Old Bridge, NJ | reply to Liberty
Bought Pointer jeans but but like you the style wasn't there. I found allamericaclothing.com and they have jeans that are all american made from the cotton to the zipper. Style is similar to Wrangler and Lee. Price is compatible to Levis. |
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| reply to nunya
said by nunya:My Redwing boots crapped out last month (holes in the uppers, worn out soles). They were beyond repair, so I went to the boot store looking for non-Chinese replacements. Nothing that was waterproof. I couldn't believe Redwing had gone down the China path.
I finally ordered from »www.afboots.com/ (I was leery about ordering boots online). They wound up being 1/2 the price of Chinese Redwings.
I have bought Redwings for years & years too and have struggled with their line gradually converting to Chinese
No US models that interest me any longer there
My criteria for purchases now days, first filter is:
Made in USA or not China
Second is trade imbalance with manufacturer's country
The boots I have now are made in Romania (I think) Asolo
Expensive as Redwings and comfortable as hell - time will tell on build quality
Could not find decent US boots to-save-my-sole |
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sk1939Premium
join:2010-10-23
Washington, DC
kudos:9 | reply to Timmn
Close, but it is based in Hong Kong and run by a German who is the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer who also sits on the board of Novatel Wireless Inc. |
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