 hm
@videotron.ca | reply to hm
Re: Voltage Versus Teksavvy, Round 2 Continued A prominent Privacy advocate in the States caught wind of this one.
It's up on the pogowasright.org website here:
A decision by Teksavvy not to fight a motion puts subscribers’ privacy at risk
»www.pogowasright.org/?p=32666
A Canadian reader alerted me that there’s a hearing scheduled in a Canadian court tomorrow (Monday) that will likely be of interest to this blog’s readers.
Copyright lawyer Harold Knopf provided the background on the case, in which Voltage Pictures’ filed a motion to compel an ISP, Teksavvy, to disclose the names and addresses of 2,000 subscribers who are currently identified only by IP address. The lawsuit is based on P2P filesharing via BitTorrent, and Voltage’s claim states that once it has obtained the Doe defendants’ names and addresses, it will seek a financial accounting of how much they profited by distribution of their works. Because most people are seeding but not actually obtaining direct financial remuneration, I’m not clear where Voltage is going with this, unless they intend to argue that someone who seeds X movies Y times owes them $$$ based on a per movie cost?
Disturbingly, to privacy advocates, subscribers, and Howard, the ISP decided not to fight the motion. Knopf wrote: ...
..... continues over at »www.pogowasright.org/?p=32666
Tomorrows court date sure is going to be interesting to follow. So many people have eyes on this one. |
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hm
@videotron.ca | As far as I can tell, the three links to follow for today's court hearing will be:
»twitter.com/pandersen
»twitter.com/RessyM
»twitter.com/johnDowntownTO
I am unsure if any of these people will be allowed to live-tweet during the court proceedings (Requires the court to identify you as a journalist).
Anyone know of any other feeds to follow?
Good luck to all, and thanks Ressy for taking time out of your life to head over to the court to keep us all informed! Much appreciated.
Privacy Versus Piracy Starts at 11-am. |
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resa1983Premium
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kudos:7 | John said he wouldn't be here for this one, that he'd be following me.
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hm
@videotron.ca | reply to resa1983
Re: Voltage Versus Teksavvy, Round 2 Continued Teksavvy said they incurred costs to date of $190k. Wants to be paid up front before a foreign company disappears with peoples private info.
In addition, there might be more added costs.
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Good for them! |
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 dillyhammerA. Good. Start.Premium,MVM
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| said by hm :Teksavvy said they incurred costs to date of $190k. Wants to be paid up front before a foreign company disappears with peoples private info.
In addition, there might be more added costs.
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Good for them!
Private info sold to a foreign dirtbag company? According to some people, really cheap. How is that good for them?
Mike
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 El QuintronResident Mouth BreatherPremium
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| said by dillyhammer:Private info sold to a foreign dirtbag company? According to some people, really cheap. How is that good for them?
Mike
190k is well beyond what they can get out of these lawsuits after their costs are factored in.
I'd argue Teksavvy is certainly making a point with 190k as an upfront number.
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| reply to El Quintron
Re: Voltage Versus Teksavvy, Round 2 Continued Barry Logan is quoted as saying "Rumour has it that some ISPs are asking anywhere from $40 to $200 per address for IP address reconciliation. For even a modest request for 1,000 records is going to cost a fortune. At $40 per address it’s absurd. At $200 it’s impossible."
So... yeah  |
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hm
@videotron.ca | reply to El Quintron
said by El Quintron:I'd argue Teksavvy is certainly making a point with 190k as an upfront number.
And by my guesstimate of accountings, that is letting them off cheap.
Only comes to around 95$/IP. I was stating since the beginning it should be above $100-150.
But TSI also added there could be more costs. So good.
So at least we know Voltages legal team wants about $2000 per court appearance.
So guess that brings them up to $4,000 dollars now, then a hearing to see if CIPPIC should be granted, so $6,000. And that's just to get the ball rolling in regards to what the judge said, "to try and get this right".
Unless Voltages lawyers are working pro-bono (or accepting a cut from the extortion), voltage will be out of pocket an easy $215k before they get a name.
But voltage will still make a nice profit if they get those names. |
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Nitra
join:2011-09-15
Montreal | Well, the judge if proven guilty could simply award a paltry amount like $100 for each.
Even if all 2000 names/people are turned over, at $100/each, they are already in the hole by several thousand dollars. |
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hm
@videotron.ca | said by Nitra:Well, the judge if proven guilty could simply award a paltry amount like $100 for each.
Even if all 2000 names/people are turned over, at $100/each, they are already in the hole by several thousand dollars.
That is the gamble. A few scenario's play out.
1. Voltage will leave owing money
2. Voltage is abusing the court, not going to bring anyone to court, and just getting names so they can send extortion letters demanding $5,000 from each person.
3. Voltage will indeed bring people to court demanding the max possible, $5,000. Unless they magically prove each of these people were in it for commercial gains which would bring it up to a max possible of $20K per person (highly unlikely). How likely is it that a court will award the max possible of $5,000? Geist is saying the courts are more realistically going to give the minimum, $100. But I doubt what Geist stated since these people have real costs associated and would show this to the court, thus upping the "fine". |
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| said by hm :said by Nitra:Well, the judge if proven guilty could simply award a paltry amount like $100 for each.
Even if all 2000 names/people are turned over, at $100/each, they are already in the hole by several thousand dollars.
That is the gamble. A few scenario's play out. 1. Voltage will leave owing money 2. Voltage is abusing the court, not going to bring anyone to court, and just getting names so they can send extortion letters demanding $5,000 from each person. 3. Voltage will indeed bring people to court demanding the max possible, $5,000. Unless they magically prove each of these people were in it for commercial gains which would bring it up to a max possible of $20K per person (highly unlikely). How likely is it that a court will award the max possible of $5,000? Geist is saying the courts are more realistically going to give the minimum, $100. But I doubt what Geist stated since these people have real costs associated and would show this to the court, thus upping the "fine". The issue of whether or not Voltage is going to sue should also be a matter argued before the courts. If there is no intention to sue then they have no right to the names in the first place. Why is no one arguing PIPEDA in this case? |
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resa1983Premium
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| said by rednekcowboy:said by hm :said by Nitra:Well, the judge if proven guilty could simply award a paltry amount like $100 for each.
Even if all 2000 names/people are turned over, at $100/each, they are already in the hole by several thousand dollars.
That is the gamble. A few scenario's play out. 1. Voltage will leave owing money 2. Voltage is abusing the court, not going to bring anyone to court, and just getting names so they can send extortion letters demanding $5,000 from each person. 3. Voltage will indeed bring people to court demanding the max possible, $5,000. Unless they magically prove each of these people were in it for commercial gains which would bring it up to a max possible of $20K per person (highly unlikely). How likely is it that a court will award the max possible of $5,000? Geist is saying the courts are more realistically going to give the minimum, $100. But I doubt what Geist stated since these people have real costs associated and would show this to the court, thus upping the "fine". The issue of whether or not Voltage is going to sue should also be a matter argued before the courts. If there is no intention to sue then they have no right to the names in the first place. Why is no one arguing PIPEDA in this case? Apparently the Appeals court in the BMG case stated there's no merit in arguing that.
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| said by resa1983:Apparently the Appeals court in the BMG case stated there's no merit in arguing that.
How can there be "no merit" when it is one of the stipulations outlined in PIPEDA? This is what we are talking about, correct? Customer's privacy and whether or not to disclose this information? If it doesn't meet the guidlines outlined in the act itself it most definitely has merit. |
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El QuintronResident Mouth BreatherPremium
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| said by rednekcowboy:How can there be "no merit" when it is one of the stipulations outlined in PIPEDA?
Precedent: As in it's already been argued, and it was not seen as valid then.
Remember these proceedings are about Voltage seeking damages, as far as Voltage sees it the courts are probably not their only recourse to seek damages. (eg: Extortion letters)
Teksavvy, I think, by setting a bill of 190K for IP lookups is trying to make this route as unappealing as possible to Voltage, but to say that Voltage's only option is to sue you in a court of law is probably the legal equivalent of walking across the street without looking both ways.
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resa1983Premium
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| reply to rednekcowboy
From the BMG appeal itself:
quote:
The privacy issue was an important consideration. Under the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (PIPEDA), ISPs are not entitled to "voluntarily" disclose personal information such as the identities requested except with the customer's consent or pursuant to a court order. Privacy rights are significant and must be protected. The delicate balance between privacy interests and public interest has always been a concern of the Court where confidential information is sought to be revealed. Privacy concerns must yield to public concerns for the protection of intellectual property rights in situations where infringement threatens to erode those rights. In other words, the public interest in favour of disclosure must outweigh the legitimate privacy concerns of the person sought to be identified if a disclosure order is made. Where plaintiffs show that they have a bona fide claim that unknown persons are infringing their copyright, they have a right to have the identity revealed for the purpose of bringing action.
»www.canlii.org/en/ca/fca/doc/200···193.html
Previously, they needed to show a bona fide claim of infringement. Which is solid evidence. That was changed to prima facie, which essentially means it looks valid at first glance without rebuttal. Which, unfortunately, the affidavit does meet.
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| reply to El Quintron
This also brings up the question as to how do we make sure that Canadian subscribers info is handed over to non-Canadian entity - Voltage is to obey PIPEDA - Canadian law? May be the info should only be forwarded to their Canadian law firm and there should be conditions on how that is being used.
IMHO the jugde is also dropping hints about the court does not understand how an IP is associated with a person. This is a good time for CIPPIC or TSI to bring up some expert witness(es) and/or point out case file(s) that shows the uncertainties. |
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| said by random :This also brings up the question as to how do we make sure that Canadian subscribers info is handed over to non-Canadian entity - Voltage is to obey PIPEDA - Canadian law? May be the info should only be forwarded to their Canadian law firm and there should be conditions on how that is being used.
IMHO the jugde is also dropping hints about the court does not understand how an IP is associated with a person. This is a good time for CIPPIC or TSI to bring up some expert witness(es) and/or point out case file(s) that shows the uncertainties.
I too think the judge was dropping some hints that an IP does not correlate to the account holder even being involved in the infringing act, which is a good sign. If Voltage thinks this part of their journey is tough, they haven't seen anything yet.
I'm glad there is a different judge presiding over the case. I'm not even sure whether or not he agrees with the original court order being issued for the information in the first place.
Also to the rest, precedent is one thing, but it can also be challenged and overturned. Just because another court said a part of the law is irrelevant does not make it so. You can't simply dismiss a section of the law. It was put in place to prevent this very type of trolling. Which is also what the judge is hinting at, I believe. If you can't prove an IP is a person, then you have no case and no right to the information in the first place.
At this stage of the game, Voltage is having a tough enough time as it is. So much so that they are accusing the other side of creating a conspiracy against them, not once but several times. They are making wild accusations and calling names. If they thought they were going to make a "quick buck" with this, then they were sadly mistaken. They would be better off cutting their losses now....it's only going to get worse for them the longer this goes on as they don't really have a leg to stand on as demonstrated by their attitude befitting of a todler in court today.
This is the type of scrunity that I was looking for on this request. I also do have to admit that Teksavvy is putting up somewhat of a fight, which is decent, however I still feel that they should be fighting with more of an emphasis on their customers privacy protection and validity of the "evidence" that Voltage possesses rather than how much they should be allowed to charge for said information. |
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hm
@videotron.ca | I am betting Voltage drops this case.
The furthest this will go will be to see if CIPPIC is allowed to get in on the action, it ends there if they are granted intervenor status. |
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