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bluedyedvd

join:2007-04-15
Overland Park, KS

[Newsgroups] what is going to happen with the usenet Industry?

With the death of newzbin2 and nzb matrix and the mass dmca takedowns. I was looking for other people and there thoughts of the future for the usenet industry if there is any at all. I been using usenet almost exclusively since 2005 I was tired of fake files and slow speeds and i always heard how great usenet was and then I red a news article on slyck about newzbin so i decided to check them out after that torrents were history for me. Things were great for the next few years the retention wars started and i could get anything and everything i wanted at full speed it was great no dmca to worry about and no worry of lawsuits. Two or three years ago hbo started pulling down content could live with that if it was just hbo content Then games started to get takedowns too. It didn't really bother me because i don't play games. Fast forward to last summer the beginning of the end the dark knight rises started getting pulled down then the expendables and the list of content that dmca was going after kept growing and this fall the list just exploded it seems that all new tv shows are being removed any new movies are gone. The exception to the mass dmca content is porn they don't have the money to mass dmca content and most of that is already using coded filenames. Now all the big nzb sites are gone if you were lucky enough to already belong or get in before the community went private.

I know you can use headers but what good does that do if the only content that doesn't get removed has a coded filename. I just don't see how the usenet user base will stick around to pay these providers but maybe they will. I am planning to stick around until it becomes totally useless, The torrent scene is much better then it was 8yrs ago people speeds have increased clients have improved I just bought a proxy server I hope new mega will bring something that will revolutionize the filesharing scene here's hoping. Where are your guys thoughts?

samphar

join:2012-02-15
Alpharetta, GA

Re: [Newsgroups] what is going to happen with the usenet Industr

I think that the Usenet industry will return to its roots as a small cottage industry with many small players as opposed to a big industry dominated by two or three big firms like HighWinds.

The NSPs are caught in a classic catch 22. Increase visibility and ease of use will cause users to purchase more service which in turn attracts more DMCA takedowns which cause users displeasure and service cancellations.

The only way forward is multiple server backends with maybe only 250 days retention. I signed up for my first premium New Server back in 1997 and then they only had 10 days retention in the mp3 groups. We don't need 3 years retention from two or three big firms. What we need are many smalln nimble providers. Has alltopia or newsreader for instance been hit by DMCA? I know Altopia still has the pedo groups that the big three removed years ago.

Ultimately, the Content Providers will come up with cost effective ways to deliver the same content so you won't need to pirate it. I started with Mp3s back in 1997 but today get my music from spotify for which I pay a modest subscription.

The fact that we are paying for premium access to a news server tells the industry that there is a market for this content. Hulu and Netflix should in the next year or so offer most of US Broadcast television to subscribers. My only fear is that the download of content could be tied to a cable television subscription which would be a huge detriment to users. HBO offers all of it content for download from HBO Go , but you have to be a HBO cable subscriber to get it. I'd rather you have ala carte pricing of HBO shows for like a dollar apiece.

But thats the future of Usenet. A smaller, decentralized network where most of the current mainstream content is gone, but delivers value and file for those who trade more specialized niches.

ophelus

join:2004-01-11
Kansas City, MO

1 edit
reply to bluedyedvd
I think were waiting on a invention.. to stop the DMCA stuff.. it seems like there effectively taking out about 20% (seems like lately) of new content.. maybe 10%

There seem to be ideas floated around about encrypting file names etc. really what's going on is company's like astraweb.. are choking their own neck.. it would seem to me it's only a matter of time before they either go bankrupt or finally get smart and stop the automation.. (during this time of transition.. I really miss the feature of X-Pat.. headers are headachy.. course maybe X-Pat would make things easier for our DMCA friends )

It would be VERY, very easy for people to re-write usenet server software to stop this too.. stop allowing kill posts etc. (I've run a usenet server before.. not sure many people can say that.. but umm.. I haven't tried out the new server/build your own nzbsite yet)

I'm getting google fiber in this year or maybe next year.. so it is possible I might have enough "bandwidth" to run a feed.. when I last got one.. it was 45 mbit.. came via satellite and was highly screwed up aka posts had terrible completion... I don't know if I had a fully working 1 gbit speed if that would even be enough for a semi-full data stream.. but one could actually use the server to sift selectively for what you want.. maybe, that's what all the new tech is..?? I don't know.. haven't explored it yet

Yah, know one thing I've never understood and maybe a usenet expert can comment.. I know for years "kill posts" were sometimes not propagated all through usenet aka.. if you sent a message you could kill it on the server you sent it too.. but it might not "necessarily" be killed all over the usenet.. but the point I know is.. astraweb, giganews whatever could configure their usenet servers either by 'feature' or by updated software to not take kill posts at all!

And that's another thing I don't understand about the DMCA attacks.. when there automating their take downs.. using the "kill" command or whatever it is? Do they actually send a "kill" command to just one server and it propagates the whole usenet.. or are they actually motivated enough to send a KILL command to every usenet server out there? (see I don't know everything even if I have ran a news server )

Yah, know just like people are already running their own custom versions of Newzbin it wouldn't be inconceivable either.. to have everyone run their own news server.. entirely possible

So right now were just in a transition for binary groups.. and things are transitioning.. it seems like too the issue of DMCA is somewhat in the dark.. people know about it.. sorta talk about it.. but is anyone doing anything yet? (I dunno is the answer) I got usenet before there were par's and newsleecher.. (2 great usenet inventions) not to mention Yenc

People were talking about DMCA 6 months ago and a year ago.. but now I actually see it in my reality.. whereas they've seen it for quite a while

Yah, the truth is.. if there were a pay service that was legal and had everything cost about as much as the usenet but had premium data centers.. I'd just pay rather than deal with the hassle of so many lost files.. but of course there not "offering" anything anyway.. so I have substitute a lot of my lost files to torrents.. funny.. how they can knock out so many usenet posts but torrents live on..

ophelus

join:2004-01-11
Kansas City, MO
reply to bluedyedvd
Yah, know there's a whole lot that could be done.. when yah think about it..

1 thing we could do is turn our big usenet providers into feeders instead and yah.. run our own news servers.. and then we could re-organize the posting in groups so that instead of finding just about everything in a.b.boneless or .mom or whatever.. it could all be re-categorized better.. (it's currently terribly lazy.. I would say) you want to see a group that's actually organized right check out the .drwho group or .starwars they don't allow miss-posts in there.. that I can remember

There's a lot that can be done to save the binaries on usenet.. it's just a question of is anyone gonna do it?

ophelus

join:2004-01-11
Kansas City, MO
reply to bluedyedvd
Yah, and I had another good few good ideas.. release groups.. release usually to groups like .boneless or .bluray or whatever..

But what if release groups had their own "group names" and imagine this.. usenet feeds are a lot of data that's true.. but what if it was all run like torrents..? what if some people ran their own servers and they carried .drwho and .release group x.. and someone else carried .boneless and .fringe

I guess, I'm saying it's totally possible to re-structure the usenet and even give up the need for super centralized servers (and when I say re-structure I’m not talking about giving up its basic nature.. I’m only talking about content posters actually “organizing” their data whereas today it’s all dumped in some basic groups) maybe the group name thing would have to be re-organized too

ophelus

join:2004-01-11
Kansas City, MO
reply to bluedyedvd
Oh yah.. I had one other good idea..

I can't say that this "new usenet" would be safe from copyright shenagans.. but if you were to build a server that was a client too.. (which is what I'm talking about)

It would be great to build some "talking groups into it" just like this forum here.. where people could say "hello" or talk about usenet.. or post pictures like they do in some groups.. so it could be both a client and a server in one..

But my point is adding that in.. might make it more than just binaries/so-called piracy

jimboe

join:2000-08-14
New York

1 recommendation

reply to bluedyedvd
conversation with yourself there?

j/k good ideas.

PinkyThePig
Premium
join:2011-05-02
Tempe, AZ
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to ophelus
ophelus you must not know much of anything about DMCA. The reason usenet providers have to abide by the requests is if they don't they will no longer have safe harbor status and will be sued out of oblivion. The reason usenet has DMCA takedowns and torrents don't lies in the way each is setup. In bittorrent there is nothing to submit a dmca takedown to. The magnet file is not infringing on anyone copyrights. The only ones who are are the individual downloaders. They do send letters to them but that is a whole different story. In the case of usenet there is a central server hosting the file that IS a violation of copyright which can then be DMCA removed.

In regards to automation once the genie is out of the bottle there is no putting it back in unless there is a very good excuse. In the wording of the law they have to remove files in an "expeditious" manner so intentionally doing it slow would be grounds for getting sued.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to bluedyedvd
The biggest issue is there is a ton of money tied up in hardware.
I can't imagine the petabytes of storage it takes to hold 3yrs of "linux distros".


90115534
Someone is sabotaging me.Finding out who
Premium
join:2001-06-03
Kenner, LA
said by elwoodblues:

The biggest issue is there is a ton of money tied up in hardware.
I can't imagine the petabytes of storage it takes to hold 3yrs of "linux distros".

lol

ophelus

join:2004-01-11
Kansas City, MO
reply to PinkyThePig
said by PinkyThePig:

ophelus you must not know much of anything about DMCA.

And you must know very little about usenet.. usenet is not 1 server but 10-50 servers for binaries and more when you count just basic "news" groups.. and it takes a command and a program to take down posts.. and that's where my knowledge ends..

At a infrastructure level.. or server side.. they could stop kill posts but more so the real question is.. are they sending a command to kill the files on all servers? (that's a question for a more experienced person then I on usenet)

zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to bluedyedvd
Is there a central usenet server? I was always under the impression was that when someone uploaded to their particular usenet server that it then propogate to all the usenet servers? IE every NSP has all the content of usenet on their own drives and stuff.

So if they wanted to remove something from all of USENET they'd have to pull it off the server it was uploading on within minutes before it propogates to all the other usenet servers? Since its DMCA notices right now I don't think you could kill it in that window of 2 or 3 minutes? Once its propogated there's no way to kill it from all usenet servers without requesting a takedown from each one individually?

sandman_1

join:2011-04-23
11111
I know in the NL, they have a private peering network for Usenet providers through the exchange (ni-ix), i.e. »www.nextfeed.nl/. So in effect, you are uploading to all since the data is sent instantly to all peers. If you notice, all the major players are participating in this program. I would assume they have something probably similar here in the states.


TOPDAWG
Premium
join:2005-04-27
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to bluedyedvd
not much really. the mean things that will hurt the usenet company's is paypal stopping payments to them. So more will have to start taking visa and the like or get a new payment system other then paypal.

Rojo

join:2009-04-14
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 edit
So? When did PayPal become the only game in town? If it is it's because WE made it so.
So screw them. Back to CCards, debit cards, etc.. Commerce will survive without PP and the sooner the better.

PastTense

join:2011-07-06
united state
reply to ophelus
said by ophelus:

At a infrastructure level.. or server side.. they could stop kill posts but more so the real question is.. are they sending a command to kill the files on all servers? (that's a question for a more experienced person then I on usenet)

There is a cancel command in Usenet which is sent to all servers. However I doubt if very many sites honor cancels, since anyone can send a cancel for any reason. Instead the DMCA takedown requests are sent to individual sites.

There has been a fundamental change in the structure of Usenet. In the old days, when Usenet was overwhelmingly for text discussion, every ISP and every college had its own news server. But with the massive volume of binary content very few sites deal with binary content (although there are still a significant number of servers dealing with text discussion). So subscribers to binary content are overwhelmingly concentrated among a dozen or so sources. See
»www.usenet-providers.net/newsgro···lers.php
And it is very easy to send out a dozen takedown requests for a file.

So while it is technically feasible for small groups of people to create their own news servers and avoid takedown requests, it may not be financially feasible due to the costs of storage and bandwidth. And even if it is financially feasible, it's a question if it is better than other filesharing alternatives: torrents with VPN, torrents with private trackers, cyberhosts with files encoded and not widely shared, usenet itself with encoded, password protected files...

ophelus

join:2004-01-11
Kansas City, MO
said by PastTense:

So while it is technically feasible for small groups of people to create their own news servers and avoid takedown requests, it may not be financially feasible due to the costs of storage and bandwidth. And even if it is financially feasible, it's a question if it is better than other filesharing alternatives: torrents with VPN, torrents with private trackers, cyberhosts with files encoded and not widely shared, usenet itself with encoded, password protected files...

Yah, know I had another idea too

If clouds become reasonable/cheap on bandwidth/storage.. one could use a cloud..

I think if I manage to get a gbit of bandwidth from google.. I'll investigate running my own server.. I was highly interested in running one in 2001 or so.. back when the DATA cost GB's.. ultimately that experiment though was a miserable success (bad data center)

How nice it'd be to have your server pickup data and ignore "kill" commands

I assume the good usenet software is still *nix based.. though I ran a windows equivalent in 2001

ophelus

join:2004-01-11
Kansas City, MO
reply to bluedyedvd
Ohh, crap I had another anti-dmca idea.. what if your personal news server took NZB's..?

The nzb could point to the group and file.. and your news server if properly written/configured.. could spool only that file/files.. now obviously it'd only be good for "hot off the presses" things but in theory.. it could kinda work (this idea kind of blurs the line between client and server)

It would probably work best if it PEERED with a news server that didn't allow DMCA's though.. or kill commands

Wait.. had another version of this idea.. what if you could spool 2 to 7 days of usenet feed..? maybe at 50-100 mbit a day.. onto a couple 3 Tb drives.. then you would "purge" your retention at 7 days or so.. but if you WANTED something before purged.. you could feed the server software a NZB and it would extract it


mmainprize

join:2001-12-06
Houghton Lake, MI
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to bluedyedvd
It is going to change in the coming years. So much internet traffic is for this pirated content that there is a very large market for the industry to supply the content. So i think we will start to see legal ways to get what we want and Usenet will die off slowly.

They just need to to give it a reasonable price per month. Look at netflixs.
Now you have some 150 to 200 billion Computers and devices that want access to the content. So if every one only paid $1 a month that is 200 billion a month for the content industry. Much more for the ISP's that get even higher fee for your internet service to use the content. Now if you look at this Globally how big is going to be, much bigger then these numbers.

But we all know there will be ten middle men and they will all have there hand out, so they will try and get $20 a month from each of use.
They will make it so you have to get it from 10 different sources at $20 each. So most of use will not join in and they will not make all the money they could if it was only $1 a month in the first place for all of it.