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FiReSTaRT
Premium Member
join:2010-02-26
Canada

FiReSTaRT to Bob4

Premium Member

to Bob4

Re: Honda fluids generic or mfr-branded?

said by Bob4:

I have all my work done at my Honda dealer, so I have no idea about the costs involved. But over a 3-period, how much could you possibly save by using generic fluids (other than engine oil)? And is it being penny wise and pound foolish?

Sometimes it's about the convenience of buying elsewhere or buying a superior product for my vehicle. For my MTF change I'll have to get the washers for the drain/fill bolts at the stealership anyway, but many Honda owners who have used both Honda and Amsoil MTF prefer Amsoil, for example. Or, if I see Prestone, which has been well-reviewed in Honda engines on sale just as I'm picking up some tools at Crappy Tire, why not pick it up and use it when I do my cooling system flush? Same goes for brake fluid which is also used in the hydraulic system for the clutch.

That is why I asked what can be safely substituted and what can't be. It's not as if Honda owns refineries or chemical plant. Their branded fluids have to be manufactured by others to their specs.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru

MVM

said by FiReSTaRT:

That is why I asked what can be safely substituted and what can't be. It's not as if Honda owns refineries or chemical plant. Their branded fluids have to be manufactured by others to their specs.

The issue though is that it is their specs, and not anyone else's. Honda's contract(s) with their supplier(s) may prohibit them from selling the exact same fluid to another brand under a different name. Or perhaps other manufacturers don't want to spend the time or money developing an equivalent fluid that has the same characteristics and have it certified as such. Or maybe Honda doesn't want to release it's specs to allow 3rd parties to certify their product.

Requiring the use of OEM fluids can not be a requirement of the warranty by federal law, nor can they automatically void your warranty or deny a warranty claim if you do use non-OEM fluids. In the event that there is an issue on a covered part and non-OEM fluids, it's up to the manufacturer (or it's agent) to prove that the use of a non-OEM fluid contributed to the defect and did not meet it's specification. Having a very specific fluid formula like Honda does for some fluids is kind of a work around to this law. GM has done similar with it's Dexos engine oil but there are a few aftermarket brands that have licensed the formulation or spec.

There is ample evidence all over the internet that Bad Things™ can happen if you don't use Honda-speced fluids for certain components. I know for sure that the power steering fluid and ATF are two of them as I've researched those things for my 07 Accord. Unfortunately you're stuck spending a little extra and going a little out of your way to get the specific fluids. The good thing is that they are normally lower-maintenance items so you're not doing it all that often.

FiReSTaRT
Premium Member
join:2010-02-26
Canada

FiReSTaRT

Premium Member

Honda has a big market, so others can reverse-engineer the stuff that sells. Coolant was unnecessary as they already use garden-variety stuff. PS fluid has been done by various manufacturers. MTF has even been beaten (not by a lot) and we know about brake/clutch fluids. They can't redesign every fluid out there and set up a supply chain to feed all their owners.

Could be worse.. Some VW's require VW-certified oil (made by Castrol), PS fluid AND coolant.

I've been told that bad things will happen if I don't go the OEM way on many occasions. In some cases it would have been true, in others I've found much better-performing products that were at a fraction of the price and a lot easier to get. The trick is to take every instance where the manufacturer tells you the world will end if you don't use their stuff and ask "why"

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

2 recommendations

cdru

MVM

said by FiReSTaRT:

I've been told that bad things will happen if I don't go the OEM way on many occasions. In some cases it would have been true, in others I've found much better-performing products that were at a fraction of the price and a lot easier to get. The trick is to take every instance where the manufacturer tells you the world will end if you don't use their stuff and ask "why"

It's not just Honda that manufacturer that recommends it. Go to most any Honda forum and ask if people recommend Honda Z-1/DW-1 or Brand XYZ and they will almost always recommend using the OEM fluid. Here is an example for instance. In fact, that thread even mentioned that they contacted Castrol to see if their import ATF was for use as a Z-1 replacement. Castrol wrote back that they recommend the genuine fluid and that while their fluid met performance specs, it wasn't OEM approved.

I was in Advance Auto this evening and looked at the price for a quart of ATF while I was in there. The cheapest they had was Valvoline at $6.49 and had no mention of Z-1 specs. There were several brands at $7 that mentioned Z-1.

MSRP on the Honda fluid, from Honda, is about $8.20.

Are people really quibbling over $3.60 every few years? I can understand doing it over $2.99 dino oil vs. $9 Mobil-1 every 3 months. But really? Come on...

Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium Member
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC

Juggernaut

Premium Member

I gave up quibbling about Mobil 1 prices (or Amsoil etc.) ages ago. The same with 3 cents a liter for fuel. Big deal. I use pure gas, and a good synthetic oil.

You're quite correct in holding the position that some things are just false economy. I refuse to risk catastrophic failure of an expensive component because of a few dollars. It's just not worth it.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru

MVM

said by Juggernaut:

I gave up quibbling about Mobil 1 prices (or Amsoil etc.) ages ago. The same with 3 cents a liter for fuel. Big deal. I use pure gas, and a good synthetic oil.

You're quite correct in holding the position that some things are just false economy. I refuse to risk catastrophic failure of an expensive component because of a few dollars. It's just not worth it.

I chuckle at the people that will drive across town in their SUV so that they will save $.04 on 15 gallons of gas.

It doesn't hurt though to shop around looking for a deal as part of your normal shopping though. Advance had Mobil 1 for $9/qt, while Wal-mart that I already drive by every day has the exact same oil in a 5qt jug for $26.

Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium Member
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC

Juggernaut

Premium Member

Absolutely. If you see a good deal, buy it and save the cash. You'll use the oil eventually. As for the gas price idiots, I have to laugh.

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall to cdru

MVM

to cdru
A downside of requiring "special" fluids is where you can get work done. How many non-Honda-dealer garages stock Honda fluids ? Even something as simple as a place that changes your oil and checks the other fluids, i.e. power steering or transmission, but may not be able to top it off if low.

FiReSTaRT
Premium Member
join:2010-02-26
Canada

FiReSTaRT

Premium Member

said by Hall:

A downside of requiring "special" fluids is where you can get work done. How many non-Honda-dealer garages stock Honda fluids ? Even something as simple as a place that changes your oil and checks the other fluids, i.e. power steering or transmission, but may not be able to top it off if low.

That is my biggest issue (mostly along the lines of being stuck in the sticks or on a road trip where I don't have my garage handy). At least now I've learned the following:

1) If a brake line bursts and gets replaced while I'm in the sticks, Bubba can use regular DOT3 stuff and I won't have to do a flush when I get home

2) If a coolant hose craps out on me, I can ghetto it fixed and top it off with the regular Prestone stuff and not worry about having to flush the cooling system. Also I can use regular distilled water and don't have to use Honda (R) brand distilled water

3) If I develop a PS fluid leak, I can keep myself going with Honda-spec stuff available at any Crappy Tire but not the ATF that I'm used to using as psf

4) If any major tranny work has to be done, there better be a Honda dealer or an Amsoil dealer in town or I should start looking for a motel

Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium Member
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC

Juggernaut

Premium Member

Use DOT 4, as it has a higher boiling point. It's better under severe conditions.

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall to FiReSTaRT

MVM

to FiReSTaRT
Mind you, some garages will have Honda-branded products. I've even seen them at quick-change places -- they charge extra for them, of course. On the other hand, they should since the others they're buying in much higher volumes.

Another Honda-unique thing is their recommendation on transmission servicing. Honda says "drain and refill" and they don't mean drain ALL of it. They do say to do this more often than other makers. They also insist to NOT "power-flush" the transmission. Try and get a non-Honda shop to drain/refill though. Good luck.... even if you bring the ATF fluid. They'll insist on using their new, expensive, super-duper transmission-flush machine no matter what and assure you it will be fine.

Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

Cho Baka to Juggernaut

MVM

to Juggernaut
said by Juggernaut:

Use DOT 4, as it has a higher boiling point. It's better under severe conditions.

I would not recommend this. I have seen issues when dot 4 is used in a vehicle that was originally filled with dot 3.

Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium Member
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC

Juggernaut

Premium Member

Interesting. I've never heard of, or seen a problem using DOT 4. Any specifics vehicles?

Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

Cho Baka

MVM

3 different manufacturers that I have seen.

Keep in mind that the number of vehicles that I saw with issues from this was small.

Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium Member
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC

Juggernaut

Premium Member

For reference, can you let us know what they were? Might save someone from some problems.