Topic 'Re: Vicious circle' in forum '' - dslreports.com

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:41:43 EDT

Uncle Paul posted : Geez you just don't get it.

There are certain amount of risk, unknowns, and time involved with getting your free product. You have to know where to get the free product (not everyone knows how torrents or newsgroups work). For the non-advanced, there is an increased risk of getting malware or trojans. There are legal ramifications for infringement by downloading or sharing. The media may need to be trans coded to play on your player. The quality of the product is always an unknown.

or

Your mother can pick up many TVs, DVD, Bluray or other devices that will play Netflix. Easily sign up for an account get several options of how to get content (either DVD, BluRay, Streaming or any combination of the three) pricing from $9/month. With that subscription they get an easy to use interface, 0 risk to malware or trojans, 0 infringement liabilities, and a known constant quality with no need to transcode.

So 'free' in this case really isn't 'free' because it comes with 'baggage'. For many many people, this 'baggage' is worth a certain amount money. They would rather pay Netflix a certain rate not to have to deal with the 'baggage' that comes with 'free'. And this is how Netflix is beating 'free' with a paid service (as linked from Sandvine earlier).

The issue is what that price point is for content. At some point the price gets to a point where people are willing to put up with the 'baggage' that comes with 'free'. This has been Karl's point. When the price gets to high, or the technical restrictions become to great, people will no longer be willing to pay for content and go back to getting it from somewhere else.

Now when a STB is widely available that allows Joe User to simply stream torrents directly it will further push the threshold for free vs pay down as it removes some of the 'baggage', but not all. Joe may still be willing to pay to use Netflix just to steer clear of infringement issues. But currently such a STB isn't available.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:27:05 EDT

Skippy25 posted : More importantly, those are all criminal infractions where as copyright is a civil infraction.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:23:07 EDT

Skippy25 posted : While we are all being honest with one another here. Lets be clear - "morals" are the underlying knowledge (or subconscious feeling) of what is right and what is wrong and is known by ALL people regardless background or any "fairytale book" you read or don't read.

What is relative is those that lack morals trying to justify their actions for whatever the relative reason is for the day. Some day they will steal because they dont have money and "need" it. Other days they will steal because they dont want to spend the money and "need" it. And still other days they will steal because they dont see it being worth spending their money and they want it anyway.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:14:23 EDT

dnoyeB posted : Cable companies would loose revenue. That would negatively impact HBO/CableCo negotiations.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:19:55 EDT

Skippy25 posted : Really? I am pretty sure people made movies and entertained well before there were millions and billions to be made in the industry.

Same with music, same with doctors and same with just about any other industry that provides a service.

Your overall statement that people would just stop doing what they enjoy and know how to do because they can't make millions in it is downright ignorant and against all of history.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:35:08 EDT

ITALIAN926 posted : You dont have to work for the MPAA to follow the rules and laws of this country.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:28:41 EDT

anon posted : So then, using you point, it is perfectly OK to sneak into a movie theater, live play or music concert.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:27:57 EDT

b10010011 posted : Since when was Netflix and Amazon considered piracy? :uhh: :huh:
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Bellingham Scanner Kicks Ass! »bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:03:00 EDT

Camelot One posted : Do you by chance work for the MPAA? If not, you should consider applying for a position. Your blatant closed mindedness and unwillingness to even consider that people are willing to purchase what they want, would make you a perfect fit for the current industry.

And since we have 4 full pages of discussion on a topic you started to say shouldn't be discussed, I will now now bow out. My work here is done.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:58:27 EDT

seamore posted :

said by BF69:

said by seamore:

Im special. :)
Besides, it's not going to put them out of business.
sorry that you dont like hearing this.

Gee if EVERYONE felt that way they WOULD go out of business. Now I know you're going to say "Well not everyone feels that way and they will pay". Which is my point. You feel like you're special and everyone should pay for YOUR entertainment. If you don't want to pay your are not entitled to the content PERIOD. Get some morals.

Someone needs to tell you that morals are relative and that they do not only come from that fairytale book.

Sorry to disappoint

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:50:36 EDT

ITALIAN926 posted : Wow, the "competing with free" concept, mentioned again. Why does this exist? Because right now its a pain to get stolen content to those big ole TV's. Just wait till STB's that stream stolen content to TV's are released. (which should be illegal btw)

Netflix has like 20+ million subscribers. Now what % of them do you think came from previous PAY TV companies, what % do you think came from the moral-free Torrent community?

Id like you to build a lemonade stand next to mine, you charge $10 a cup, and at my stand, Im selling it for the rock-bottom price of $0. See how well you do.

Competing with free, what an intelligent concept.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:31:33 EDT

Uncle Paul posted : I don't think people will be willing to pay $15 for Netflix and $15 for HBO. At that point you've past the threshold of pain that moves people to piracy. People can, and do compete with free when they provide an simple integrated approach for a decent price.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:09:55 EDT

Selenia posted : You are assuming it's not any of the hack job cable hookups I've seen. Some of those, I would not have been surprised if there was ghosting in antenna reception in the analog days several blocks down the road. Most the time you are not talking a professional installer who knows what he/she is doing and takes the care to shield and terminate the line properly. Some cases I have seen, you're talking about a cut wire with another wire spliced in, held together with tape :o That would be some ingress in the line. Glad I don't live in those neighborhoods.
--
A fool thinks they know everything.

A wise person knows enough to know they couldn't possibly know everything.

There are zealots for every OS, like every religion. They do not represent the majority of users for either.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 02:55:56 EDT

Selenia posted : I seldom pirate anymore. As to software, I don't at all anymore. If I do, I live by the motto of the scene "if you like it, buy it! If you don't, delete it!". There are many things I downloaded in the past for shits and giggles that wound up being a sale they would have never seen because I would have never thought it to be that good, if I didn't try it. The only things I like and don't buy are abandonware that has no outlet to buy legally(some really old stuff like 70s and 80s computing products) and they are no longer trying to make money off of.

A good example: One of the last things I pirated was for Android. In fact, I will name it: GrooveIP, as I am now the proud owner of a legal software license for this app. I was heavily despaired at the quality of many Android VoIP clients. I was sick of downloading legally free ones, only to be disappointed to death. Risked my money on a couple paid ones, but at least they were bad enough for me to see that quickly(some of the free ones had flaws that you had to run awhile for them to bite you, like losing incoming calls) and hit the refund button in time. So now I am at this point. I see a copy of GrooveIP and download it, expecting to delete it in disappointment and frustration. A few days later, it was still my favored client with superb call quality, perfect stability, great config options I needed, and very light on battery. I was expecting disappointment yet again, but I realized I found what I was looking for. I then uninstall it, only to go to Google Play and purchase the app because of my being grateful to the developer for creating such a great app. That was $5 that he would have never seen otherwise because the crap the software industry had been putting out had me quite cynical. Only other that wasn't crap was csipsimple, open source and legally free, but still didn't quite make me happy due to some flaws(not showstoppers like with most clients). But I found something perfect for my use that wasn't free and paid up in appreciation. I believe in a good dev/musician/company/studio making a living to feed their family with honest work. In my case, the piracy only hurt those trying to rip us, the consumer, off by pawning off crap on us at a high price. But it made sure a good developer got his dinner for an app that made my life easier. The street goes both ways and not all of us are without morals. Those that deliberately sell crap lack morals, just the same as the pirates that decide something they downloaded was good enough to keep and keep consuming, but not good enough to pay for.
--
A fool thinks they know everything.

A wise person knows enough to know they couldn't possibly know everything.

There are zealots for every OS, like every religion. They do not represent the majority of users for either.

Re: Vicious circle

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 02:33:49 EDT

anon posted :

said by Camelot One:

said by ITALIAN926:

You cant, and DONT compete with FREE.

Netflix would seem to prove otherwise.

Don't forget iTunes. iTunes proved otherwise as well with the music industry.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 23:43:34 EDT

Jason Levine posted : You're absolutely right. I also think the problem with both the RIAA and MPAA is one of control, not piracy. They want control over everything from the creation of the music/movie to where and how the people view it. Technology gives people freedom to watch movies and listen to music in many more ways. It also helps to make the RIAA/MPAA irrelevant which (of course) frightens the heads of the RIAA/MPAA. Therefore, instead of allowing this freedom to drive more sales - and possibly lead to their demise, the RIAA/MPAA try to tighten their control over the technology to slow down any progress and bleed as much money as they can out of the system for as long as they can.

Ironically, had they embraced technology instead of fighting it, the RIAA would have come up with a good online music solution during the Napster era. This would have prevented the whole file-sharing fight before it started and we'd likely be getting all of our movies/TV shows online from MPAA-Net now.
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-Jason Levine

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:40:32 EDT

tc1uscg posted : I think Camelot One it the nail on the head. Why do I want to pay 60.00 a month for crap I don't want just to pay more for HBO? Last time I checked, you had to subscribe to HBO to get HBO go. Why not just pay for HBOG and stream it on your roku or dvd player? Because big cable doesn't want them to. :o

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:58:40 EDT

ITALIAN926 posted : Heres logic for ya Mr. Brain. If everyone pirated, there would be no money to make movies and shows. Move along now, nothing to see here.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:42:48 EDT

Camelot One posted : The problem here is that you are applying logic to idiots. The MPAA companies still believe that getting $20 a movie from 10 people, and bitching about piracy costing them more sales, is somehow better than selling movies to 1000 people for $2 each.

It is the same issue the RIAA went through over $15-$20 CDs to a few people, or 99c tracks to millions.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:38:08 EDT

Jason Levine posted : Actually, Netflix is competing with free. Let's say you want to watch a film online. You can:

A) Find a torrent to download the film. Now you need to wait for it to download and hope it's a good version and not one that someone shot with a shaky camera snuck into a movie theater. You've also got to hope that you don't download a file containing a virus. Finally, you've got to hope that the MPAA doesn't catch wind of your actions (because, thanks to BitTorrent, you shared the file out while you were downloading it).

or

B) You load the movie up on Netflix.

Option A is free but has many obstacles and dangers. Option B requires payment, but not that much ($8.99 a month) and you're pretty sure to get good quality (and no viruses or MPAA lawsuit letters).

So Netflix is competing with free (piracy) and winning. It's a lot easier to subscribe to Netflix than it is to be a pirate. If the content owners really wanted to destroy piracy, they'd put all their content onto Netflix streaming. Yes, a core group of pirates would remain (nothing would ever dissuade them), but most pirates would just go to the easier, less risky Netflix. (As a side benefit for the content owners, they'd get more money.)
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-Jason Levine

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:22:08 EDT

ITALIAN926 posted : They dont have morals, and thats the entire problem. I never thought to consider piracy because aside from being illegal, I know it negatively affects hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of jobs across various industries. They think they're above everyone else, as if they are smart to know about such things, but meanwhile, they are simply a bunch of dummies that dont see the bigger picture. Some of these Einsteins probably pirate religously, negatively impacting their OWN employment, but dont even realize it. Bunch of brains.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:50:12 EDT

BF69 posted :

said by seamore:

Im special. :)
Besides, it's not going to put them out of business.
sorry that you dont like hearing this.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:12:32 EDT

Camelot One posted :

said by ITALIAN926:

One of my examples is stealing cable TV, how is that any different AT ALL from piracy?
Tapping into a cable tap DOES NOT degrade any signals. There is a specific Db loss outve that connection whether theres a hookup or not.

As a matter of fact, it does. The loss is small, but it is still a loss.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:57:05 EDT

ITALIAN926 posted : One of my examples is stealing cable TV, how is that any different AT ALL from piracy?
Tapping into a cable tap DOES NOT degrade any signals. There is a specific Db loss outve that connection whether theres a hookup or not.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:50:34 EDT

Camelot One posted :

said by ITALIAN926:

It doesnt break down, because when someone is pirating something, they are less inclined to subscribe to that channel, or buy an album, etc. If everyone and their mother used torrents, dont you think HBO would go out of business?

The shoplifting analogy is fine.

It costs money to produce this media. I would argue its no different than having to pay for water or electricity. Would you bypass your water or electric meter? I guess that wouldnt be classified as stealing either, right? What about going into a cable tap and hooking up coax into your house? Not stealing either right? Its just information.

Theres no justification in breaking these laws. People can cherry-coat them all they want, but in the end, its still illegal.

I am not going to argue that piracy is right, or legal, or anything of the sort. But I do find major flaw in your argument. In every example you listed, there is product loss. Whether it be in the form of using electricity or water, there is a physical product that has to be produced PER USE, and is thus used PER USE. If someone shoplifts a CD, that CD is no longer available for purchase. And while not as severe, even in the case of cable theft, the extra tap degrades the signal to a degree, requiring more expense to deliver the product.

There is no such product harm or loss when it comes to someone downloading a TV show. No product is used, or made unavailable for sale to someone else. No additional cost is incurred by the creator if a copy is downloaded. Is it a lost sale? Maybe. But only if the downloader WOULD have paid for the TV show if that was the only way to watch it.

Not that any of that matters to THIS thread, since the issue at hand is HBO refusing to sell a product to those who want to buy it, thus encouraging them to obtain it as a download.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:21:58 EDT

anon posted : Since I got Netflix I have pretty much stopped torrenting tv shows

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 17:31:36 EDT

seamore posted :

said by BF69:

said by seamore:

said by ITALIAN926:

Bullshit ! Stop breaking the damn law. HBO isnt breaking any laws by running their business how they see fit. You cant, and DONT compete with FREE.

"Give us your product for PENNIES or we'll just shoplift it anyway." What kind of crap is that? Seriously.

As i download the most recent Boardwalk Empire

May I ask why you feel you are entitled to that episode that others PAY for? Are you special or something? Are you above rules?

Im special. :)
Besides, it's not going to put them out of business.
sorry that you dont like hearing this.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 15:11:13 EDT

ITALIAN926 posted : It doesnt break down, because when someone is pirating something, they are less inclined to subscribe to that channel, or buy an album, etc. If everyone and their mother used torrents, dont you think HBO would go out of business?

The shoplifting analogy is fine.

It costs money to produce this media. I would argue its no different than having to pay for water or electricity. Would you bypass your water or electric meter? I guess that wouldnt be classified as stealing either, right? What about going into a cable tap and hooking up coax into your house? Not stealing either right? Its just information.

Theres no justification in breaking these laws. People can cherry-coat them all they want, but in the end, its still illegal.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:25:12 EDT

Androidian posted :

said by ITALIAN926:

"Give us your product for PENNIES or we'll just shoplift it anyway." What kind of crap is that? Seriously.

While I don't necessarily condone it, pirating an HBO show is not something tantamount to shoplifting. In shoplifting, one steals a physical product - which there are finite quantities of - which economically hurts the store owner who purchased the product for resale.

Those who pirate HBO shows (I'm not one of them, BTW) do little to no harm to HBO, as HBO's final product isn't affected... besides most of the folks who pirate this stuff likely wouldn't have bothered purchasing it in the first place (thus no profit would have been made from them).

Now, this isn't justification for pirating products in the slightest... Just my $0.02 on where the shoplifting analogy that you offered breaks down.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 09:46:59 EDT

anon posted : For most it isn't about the money. It is about being able to actually watch what you are paying for.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 04:36:30 EDT

BF69 posted :

said by seamore:

said by ITALIAN926:

As i download the most recent Boardwalk Empire

May I ask why you feel you are entitled to that episode that others PAY for? Are you special or something? Are you above rules?

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 03:15:02 EDT

KrK posted : What's immoral and should be unlawful is how they just make the laws say whatever they want.

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 03:10:02 EDT

KrK posted : Netflix doesn't compete with free? Really? Are you just trolling, or......

Re: Vicious circle

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:06:27 EDT

seamore posted :

said by ITALIAN926:

As i download the most recent Boardwalk Empire

Re: Vicious circle

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:57:00 EDT

Kamus posted :

said by ITALIAN926:

Yea, you should ignore it because its against the laws, BECAUSE ITS ILLEGAL. Just like you have cars that can surpass the speed limit. You want to take a chance and speed, go right ahead.

If the copyright holders want to make their product available via the net, Netflix, Itunes, IPTV providers , etc, Thats their prerogative. Its unlawful, and it should be immoral as well to just TAKE whatever the hell you want.

*yawn*
Are you really using the speed limit as an analogy?
I guarantee you that EVERYONE here has gone over the speed limit more than once, that's just for starters.
Never mind the fact that reckless driving endangers people's lives.

I don't believe you are that dense that you don't get it, but here it is in caps so you don't miss it:

SOMETHING BETTER CAME ALONG.

And the analogy i posted is a damn good one. Because this is simply history repeating itself, and guess what?
Rail roads won in the end.
This is exactly the same thing happening, except this time we're not talking about transportation of goods. But instead information abundance versus scarcity.
And it doesn't matter what you, me, or anyone else thinks, so you might as well accept it. We're going into an era of abundance, and information is just the start.

Re: Vicious circle

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:09:02 EDT

Kearnstd posted : And if the copyright holders do not want to make their stuff available online they deserve to suffer the piracy.

The simple fact is HBO could offer HBO Go without tethering it to an existing cable subscription, They do it overseas already. Lots of people would be willing to pay the mere $15 a month for HBO content, After all if they have cable they would be paying about that extra to get HBO anyway. IF they can do it outside the US there is no reason in any form of logic preventing them from doing it inside the US as well.

If I where an investor I would be asking why they are avoiding that revenue stream.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

Re: Vicious circle

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 16:46:47 EDT

ITALIAN926 posted : Yea, you should ignore it because its against the laws, BECAUSE ITS ILLEGAL. Just like you have cars that can surpass the speed limit. You want to take a chance and speed, go right ahead.

If the copyright holders want to make their product available via the net, Netflix, Itunes, IPTV providers , etc, Thats their prerogative. Its unlawful, and it should be immoral as well to just TAKE whatever the hell you want.

Re: Vicious circle

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 16:36:24 EDT

Kamus posted :

said by ITALIAN926:

If you dont want to pay for HBO, if you cant afford it, if you dislike their streaming option, DONT WATCH IT.

Tired of the underlying message of endorsing piracy, on almost every headline.

Yeah, why don't we all just ignore the fact that technology has made the old distribution model obsolete because it's against the law.

If we had it your way on transportation of goods, we'd still be using canals instead of trains.

Something better came along, i'm over it, you should get over it too.

For those whom might not have gotten my canals vs railroads reference, read this and see if you can find the similarities:

»voices.yahoo.com/railroad-vs-can···882.html

Re: Vicious circle

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 16:27:18 EDT

ITALIAN926 posted : LMAO "RESEARCH" used in the context teaching, classroom, and scholarship?. You are RESEARCHING on whether or not you enjoy the movie?

You Pirates are hysterical, truly.

Re: Vicious circle

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 16:24:08 EDT

crypt0 posted :

said by ITALIAN926:

Bullshit ! Stop breaking the damn law.

You are the bullshiter.

17 U.S.C. � 107

quote:
the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

Re: Vicious circle

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 04:22:14 EDT

Kearnstd posted :

said by TheMG:

said by Camelot One:

His point seemed pretty clear to me. He is willing to pay the $15 a month fee for HBO, just not the $60 a month cable subscription just for the ability to pay another $15 for HBO. Sell him HBO directly for $15, and he will buy.

That is an excellent point.

Personally I will NEVER subscribe to a streaming service that also requires me to subscribe to traditional TV (satellite/cable). That completely defeats the purpose of internet streaming in the first place, which is to dump traditional TV in favor of a service that is more portable, flexible, and on-demand.

The funny thing is for HBO, They would not lose any revenue if people cut the cord and bought HBO Go instead. HBO is already a premium channel that people pay around $15 for on top of their cable bill.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

Re: Vicious circle

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 02:05:20 EDT

TechnoGeek posted : I agree. Your posts are very entertaining. Farce has always been very in.

Re: Vicious circle

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 00:27:49 EDT

TheMG posted :

said by Camelot One:

Re: Vicious circle

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:15:48 EDT

BiggA posted : I want to rent or buy everything legally. However, I have come across quite a bit of content that I can't get legally, so I looking at getting a VPN account to download it over bittorrent anonymously.

Re: Vicious circle

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:14:01 EDT

anon posted : Oh, yeah... you da man!

Re: Vicious circle

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 20:02:54 EDT

elefante72 posted : I know some of you dodo birds know that HBO and Universal are owned by Comcast and TimeWarner. Now if you think of this as a temporary legal monopoly since our government simply allows this. It's just two buds protecting their turf, and keeping cable artificially relevant.

In the end, I think it is good, because they will just lose as competition takes hold, assuming they don't lobby rules for favoritism, then they deserve to be broken up.

I read some forbes article which compares HBO $15 a month w/ Netflix $15, except that:

1. I don't pay $15, I pay for streaming only which is only $8
2. If I really want a universal movie, then I go off to redbox or stream by paying which is of course what they want.
3. But the more they make me pay 2x (for cable and by the drink), I will simply drop cable and pay by the drink or not at all.
4. It's like they never learned from audio, and they insist repeating the same mistakes. I think they are high off record box office, so they are brazen. Well they should be, until they are not.
5. Just ask your local paper (if you still have one) how that worked out.

Re: Vicious circle

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:53:48 EDT

Beans posted : I concure, If I could make money seperatly and with a cable sub, I take both, more money, mo money. I would definetly sign up for HBO GO if it was a seperate service.

Re: Vicious circle

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:44:18 EDT

BF69 posted :

said by slckusr:

Does HBO survive on those 15$ sub fees alone, or are they broadcasters throwing them some additional bones to keep their business afloat? Safeguarding their content could show the latter would be true.

Actually of the $15 one pays for HBO, HBO actually gets about $5. Selling it to me directly they'd actually get $15. HBO also makes money off of DVD and syndication.

Re: Vicious circle

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 18:42:21 EDT

Kearnstd posted : HBO Encourages piracy the longer they delay the deployment of a separate subscription.

If they can do HBO Go outside the US without a cable sub they can certainly do it inside the US. There is no law stating they cannot. It is this protectist bullshit of legacy business models that harms things.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports