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callous10

join:2005-09-12
toron

What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

nt



Tx
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said by callous10:

nt

Kind of hard to search on my phone but if you look up resa1983 posts, (i believe a her? twiter account) she will be updating she said.

Sorry resa1983 if you're not a lady lol. Assumed so by your twitter profile. Browsing is difficult enough on a phone, let alone searching for a post.

It was recent though, you'll find it if you look in the previous posts


ekster
Hi there
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reply to callous10

I believe it starts at 11AM, from what I remember.



TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

Yes, 11am


resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

Twitter
Ressym
Pandersen


stevey_frac

join:2009-12-09
Cambridge, ON

You beat me to it Resa.

I'm following the tweets!

Have they started yet?


resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10

Still waiting. Missing 1 judge.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


stevey_frac

join:2009-12-09
Cambridge, ON
reply to callous10

Are you on a laptop then?



TwiztedZero
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4 edits

[Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Judge has reviewed material on CIPPIC intervention. #voltage opposes cippic motion to adjourn
---
Felix tang is up explaining who CIPPIC is and why they want to intervene. #teksavvy
---
Voltage said cippic didn't inform them of intervene. Cippic explains they did. #voltage counsel out of office til jan 8
---
CIPPC asks for an adjournment; Voltage opposes; CIPPC makes case for adjournment; reviews correspondence with Voltage
----
No prejudice for Voltage; administration of justice in play; new date for motion to intervene proposed for jan 22
--
Voltage stands, annoyed teksavvy is supporting adjournment and intervention. Says they shouldn't. Judge will listen to teksavvy.
---
Cippic wants to adjourn til intervention decision. Teksavvy supports both intervenor and adjournment.
---
Teksavvy lawyer has issue with Voltage saying cippic not being civil in writing to the court directly.
---
#voltage opposes #teksavvy speaking to CIPPIC motion. Judge disagrees as he feels hearing from all.
---
Teksavvy still hasn't received draft of order. Teksavvy has incited significant costs. 190k.
---
Teksavvy wants costs paid before handing over info. Foreign company who could disappear with info.
---
RT @pandersen: #teksavvy is taking issue that no draft form of actual order requested by #voltage has been provided by voltage. (Mgeist)
---
Draft of order gives costs, and how voltage wants the information. (RessyM)
---
Teksavvy noting how backwards this suit is. With how large the number of people affected compared to previous. (RessyM)
---
RT @pandersen: #teksavvy wants to know what safeguards will be in place in order to protect confidentiality of customer data. (MGeist)
---
Half of ips for technical reasons they couldn't resolve to subscriber info. (RessyM)
---
RT @pandersen: Voltage tries to introduce affidavit stating the process undertaken until today. #teksavvy immediately objects (MGeist)
---
Voltage handing our small binder of info, complaining cippic essentially sidestepped them. Judge will listen to both. (RessyM)
---
Judges allows afadavit. #teksavvy notes they have been sitting I court room for some time and #voltage did not provide. (Panderson)
---
Voltage going over how they received data on people engaging in "illegal activity" downloading movies. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage going through history now. tsi asked voltage to delay filing on nov 19 (RessyM)
---
RT @pandersen: Voltage notes cannot proceed w/chasing those identified as engaging in d/l until they are granted the motion. (MGeist)
---
My (non laywyer) analysis is #voltage trying to show they have been cooperative and patient and further delays are unwarranted #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage complaining about draft letter to affected customers, linking to cippic and @mgeist (RessyM)
---
CIPPIC and Teksavvy been in contact since Dec 10 says #voltage (PAnderson)
---
RT @RessyM: Voltage complaining about #Teksavvy draft letter to affected customers, linking to cippic and @mgeist (MGeist)
---
Lots of dates being noted by voltage in their attempt to move forward with #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage now making arguments that they are prejudiced as materials remain available for downloading. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
"The real harm is that product remains available on downloaded computer for others to" obtain - voltage claims is key issue here #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage doesn't want another extension because people continue to share the files. (RessyM)
---
Voltage "Every delay is a delay preventing not knowing who these individuals are" so voltage can stop damages from occurring #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage; CIPPIC agent same today as last hearing. CIPPIC did not object to timing of today at this point. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage; CIPPIC agent same today as last hearing. CIPPIC did not object to timing of today at this point. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Judge objects to #voltage speculating for motivation of previous Judges action. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Judge tells voltage to stop speculating what previous judge thought about cippic standing (RessyM)
---
Voltage confused as to why when CIPPIC knew Dec10 and @mgeist article on Dec11 why did CIPPIC not get materials in on time. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage complaining about teksavvy.and cippic working together for adornments. (RessyM)
---
Voltage "we are being stalled again" #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
RT @SVILaw: Voltage argues CIPPC is simply too late; Teksavvy and CIPPC work together to seek adjournments and "stall" (MGeist)
---
Voltage: they (CIPPIC) never communicate with us and only courts #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage does not think it is relevant that John Does have not shown up. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage feels this case law was solved quite cleanly during the BMG case. Only difference today was that involved Music. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage notes that arguments being made by CIPPIC were rejected in BMG case. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage argues CIPPC's proposed arguments made here were rejected by FED court of appeal in BMG #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Voltage bringing up bmg case when it was in appeals. very low evidence requirement ay such an early stage. (RessyM)
---
Voltage back to #teksavvy and CIPPIC apparently working together to delay hearing in this case of illegal activity (PAnderson)
---
Voltage: One way to fight a case where there is no reasonable defense is to delay it procedurally #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage continues to object to #teksavvy commenting on communication between Voltage and CIPPIC (PAnderson)
---
Voltage argues CIPPC's letter to court at previous date was "weighted" by improper commentary #voltage #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Voltage: Notion of Motion tracks the language that would be sought in order in response to #teksavvy concerns (PAnderson)
---
Voltage addresses lack of draft order; says normally it will follow lang. In notice of motion #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Voltage doesn't like costs. Says higher than what a trial would be. (RessyM)
---
Voltage alludes 190k #teksavvy claims so far seems very high since some trials would not run that. (PAnderson)
---
RT @pandersen: Voltage objects to privacy request from #teksavvy. Voltage seeks to have that information disclosed (MGeist)
---
Voltage argues info protection by Voltage not in issue because info is ordered to be discosed #teksavvy #voltage (SVILaw)
---
Unclear if #voltage wants information disclosed to them or disclosed to public. All they said is disclosure would be per court rules (PAnderson)
---
Voltage wants their costs for today covered by tsi if adjourned (RessyM)
---
CIPPC had early notice of motion; there is prejudice by adjournment: second time adjournment so if further adj $2000 #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Voltage seems to think costs are due as CIPPIC was late in its filings. (PAnderson)
---
Voltage seems to think costs are due as CIPPIC was late in its filings. (PAnderson)
---
And that is it for Voltage counsel. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
CIPPIC agent is now up again. (PAnderson)
---
Agent for CIPPC reviews correspondence between Voltage counsel and CIPPC #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
CIPPIC addressed alleged delay. Notes correspondence on Jan3 between CIPPIC and Voltage. Claims some efforts by CIPPIC were not responded to (PAnderson)
---
CIPPC argues about "bona fide" claim by Voltage #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Cippic bringing up quebec case with voltage, where out was all later dropped. Cipic shouldn't pay voltages costs for today. Cippic pro bono (RessyM)
---
CIPPC counsel says it was on the news Voltage dropped claims #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
CIPPIC objects to cost demand by Voltage. Feels there is a public interest to be heard and CIPPIC has limited resources #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Cell dead. Watch @pandersen feed (RessyM)
---
CIPPC sums up it has no resources; agent today pro bono; otherwise 2 lawyers (SVILaw)
---
#teksavvy up again. Still miffed about the afadavit. (PAnderson)
---
#teksavvy agrees they were contacted in Nov with draft materials but notes there has been many changes and discussions. (PAnderson)
---
Teksavvy speaks - never received final notice of motion - until then everything in draft; teksavvy could not send draft #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
#teksavvy agrees they were contacted in Nov with draft materials but notes there has been many changes and discussions. (PAnderson)
---
Teksavvy notes all documents from Voltage were draft until Dec 10. #teksavvy could not proceed to notify subscribers based on draft docs (PAnderson)
---
Teksavvy never received final notice of motion until December 11 2012 - correction of my previous post #teksavvy #voltage (SVILaw)
---
Counsel for #teksavvy that timing has been attempt to ensure fairness and due process to those affected. Again notes not a stall tactic (PAnderson)
---
Teksavvy counsel refuses to engage Voltage further on allegations about correspondence #teksavvy #voltage (SVILaw)
---
TSI notes only issue Voltage seems to be raising is Prejudice and counters no real evidence presented to these claimed damages #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
TSI notes only issue Voltage seems to be raising is Prejudice and counters no real evidence presented to these claimed damages #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Teksavvy brings up lack of #voltage evidence. Bringing up Logans info. (RessyM)
---
Teksavvy argues no evidence about the alleged "harm" suffered by Voltage #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Teksavvy says no prejudice, no evidence of people continuing sharing. Voltage themselves inserted preserve evidence paragraph in tsi letter (RessyM)
---
Teksavvy notes Voltage's materials - affidavit of Logan - deals with single downloads #teksavvy #voltage (SVILaw)
---
TSI notes voltage never requested TSI to pass on a notice requesting affected customers to cease and desist #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Teksavvy argues Voltage sought to include language in notice to John Does yet failed to even ask them to stop #teksavvy #voltage (SVILaw)
---
TSI has made multiple requests for draft order from Voltage. #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
Teksavvy argues BMG law: if disclosure order is granted, specific directions must be given, privacy concerns must be met #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
TSI seems to suggest again that they were only able to correlate 50% of IPs provided #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Teksavvy argues about importance of draft order and terms of order because of law set by BMG case #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
TSI addresses conspiracy between it and CIPPIC. Summary: dismisses them as unhelpful to issue (PAnderson)
---
Teksavvy adresses Voltage's allegation that Teksavvy and CIPPC collude - not the case and in any event no problem if interests aligned (SVILaw)
---
Voltage's turn now - firstly, review communication with CIPPC #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Voltage counsel starts to dispute TSI comments about timings of communications. #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Voltage points CIPPC knew about motion in early December 2012 #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Voltage claims they have not had co-operation from TSI in regards to why they didn't ask TSI to send notice #voltage (PAanderson)
---
Voltage says paras 5-7 of Logan affidavit says films remain available; admits Voltage did not ask for John Does to stop #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Voltage seems to suggest anyone who downloads would continue to offer that work while it remained on their computer #voltage (PAnderson)
---
TSI offers to send notice on behalf of #Voltage asking them to stop. Voltage will as long as their is no costs. TSI agrees. (PAnderson)
---
Adjournment granted. #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Request for adjournment is granted by Judge: first, unopposed motions are "risky" #teksavvy #voltage (SVILaw)
---
Second - dealing w new legslation which must be looked at properly - unapposed motions not cond. for proper decisions #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
judge: This is new legislation and it important to get this right. Court needs to be as informed as possible #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Thirdly, Judge wants to court to be informed by what is an "IP" number #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Judge: What is the connection between IP number and parties. Not automatically apparent what that is. #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Judge: procedural question of how to handle potential for 1000 defendants in front of this court #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Judge: at issue is also court procedure in terms of Voltage suing thousands of defendants #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Judge: undertaking by Teksavvy to send letter may deal with "hard" and prejudice by Voltage #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Judge: There is an offer of undertaking from respondent that addresses prejudice. (Judge seems to be hinting #voltage should take TSI up) (PAnderson)
---
Judge: motion will likely be need to be done on a special day #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
Judge doubts this can be handled in a one hour hearing. Skeptical of even a whole day been enough. #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Judge: motion not proper for "Monday's motion court," likely a day #teksavvy #voltage (SVILaw)
---
Voltage requests a complete timetable post decision on CIPPIC intervenor status. Judge suggests counsel work that out. #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Judge doubts this can be handled in a one hour hearing. Skeptical of even a whole day been enough. #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Voltage wants a timetable; judge wants the parties to deal with that by themselves #teksavvy #voltage
(SVILaw)
--Judge seems to suggest there are larger issues and would like to avoid bickering on communication issues. #voltage (PAnderson)
---
Judge: no costs. #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)
---
And we are done again. Thanks all for the follows. #voltage #teksavvy (PAnderson)
---
No follow up court date has been set FWIW. Timing will depend on whether CIPPIC gets intervenor status. #voltage (PAnderson)



creed3020
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reply to callous10

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Court is in session!

For play by play: »twitter.com/RessyM


AntonyLingo

join:2009-10-28
Toronto

I have twitter blocked from my access here at work. Can you continue to post updates here?


MaynardKrebs
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2 edits
reply to callous10

Teksavvy still hasn't received draft of order. Teksavvy has incited significant costs. 190k.

------

At $190,000 Voltage would be getting a deal.
Costs from ROBELLUS are $200 each name. 2300 names x $200 = $460,000, which is only 1% of what Voltage hope to shake down from the alleged infringers.

I'm sure by the time another one of these cases come up, TSI will have posted a price list showing a fee of at least $200/IP researched [edit] . This time around I'm pretty sure all they could get is raw cost, without any allowance for overheads. Perhaps the lack of a posted price for names is why Voltage targeted TSI - because it simply would cost Voltage less money.


nickvca
Premium
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reply to callous10

»twitter.com/mgeist#


stevey_frac

join:2009-12-09
Cambridge, ON
Reviews:
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reply to MaynardKrebs

Don't forget that only about half the names could be associated with IP's. So, figure 1100 IPs, that's around $175 each.

If it's only 950 people affected, the price would be $200. I'm assuming they can't charge for names they were unable to associate.



creed3020
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said by stevey_frac:

Don't forget that only about half the names could be associated with IP's. So, figure 1100 IPs, that's around $175 each.

If it's only 950 people affected, the price would be $200. I'm assuming they can't charge for names they were unable to associate.

I believe they should be able to charge for names that don't associate to a client. TSI would still have had to do searches and those would have been conducted by staff. Just because Voltagetroll gives over bad data doesn't mean it didn't cost TSI time to wade through it all.


dillyhammer
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reply to stevey_frac

said by stevey_frac:

I'm assuming they can't charge for names they were unable to associate.

The work still has to be done, and costs would still be incurred, even if it doesn't result in a name - for whatever reason.

But at, say, 500 per week per person, 190k is what? 380 people for a week? 38 people for 10 weeks? Seriously. They've been at this for what, 4 weeks? Did they really have 95 people working on this full time for the last month? I think not.

This just stinks to high heaven.

Mike
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MaynardKrebs
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said by dillyhammer:

said by stevey_frac:

I'm assuming they can't charge for names they were unable to associate.

The work still has to be done, and costs would still be incurred, even if it doesn't result in a name - for whatever reason.

But at, say, 500 per week per person, 190k is what? 380 people for a week? 38 people for 10 weeks? Seriously. They've been at this for what, 4 weeks? Did they really have 95 people working on this full time for the last month? I think not.

This just stinks to high heaven.

Mike

Can't forget the lawyer bills, travel costs to/from Toronto, hotels, meals, etc..... it all adds up. Maybe TSI does bill this stuff out @ $500/hour or part thereof.

Bugblndr

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reply to dillyhammer

said by dillyhammer:

But at, say, 500 per week per person, 190k is what?

Do you expect their database analysts to work for $12.50 per hour?

MFido

join:2012-10-19
kudos:2
reply to dillyhammer

said by dillyhammer:

said by stevey_frac:

I'm assuming they can't charge for names they were unable to associate.

The work still has to be done, and costs would still be incurred, even if it doesn't result in a name - for whatever reason.

But at, say, 500 per week per person, 190k is what? 380 people for a week? 38 people for 10 weeks? Seriously. They've been at this for what, 4 weeks? Did they really have 95 people working on this full time for the last month? I think not.

This just stinks to high heaven.

Mike

This post of yours shows (again) how limited your view is ... no news

Count the lawyers, Marc's time, etc ... they are not all paid $10/h

You are really a bad ass against Teksavvy, without a reason ...


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reply to Bugblndr

said by Bugblndr:

said by dillyhammer:

But at, say, 500 per week per person, 190k is what?

Do you expect their database analysts to work for $12.50 per hour?

Ok. Sure. They have a whole squad of "database analysts" working on this, and they each make 2000 a week.



But even if that were true, did they have 24 of them working on this every day for a month?

Fact is, they've had a couple of people on this for several weeks. Even factoring in Marc's time, and a couple of lawyers.... the math isn't working for me.

Sorry. I'm with Voltage on this one. 190k is not TSI's costs on this. It's their price tag. For private subscriber data.

Mike
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Expand your moderator at work


dillyhammer
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reply to MFido

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

said by MFido:

This post of yours shows (again) how limited your view is ... no news

Count the lawyers, Marc's time, etc ... they are not all paid $10/h

You are really a bad ass against Teksavvy, without a reason ...



Mike
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Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged

MaynardKrebs
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reply to dillyhammer

Mike,

Even if TSI makes a profit on this, I'd be all for them charging $10,000 per IP researched as it will make trolls think more than twice about pulling these stunts. Wouldn't you?

The price per IP researched should be high because it pulls people away from their regular jobs pushing the company forward.



Atticka

join:2001-11-26
Montreal, QC

Exactly, it would be hard for Voltage to argue the loss of productivity of these employees working on pulling the data and the loss of profit TSI would incur due to this.

All costs and lost profits considered $190k is cheap!



dillyhammer
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reply to MaynardKrebs

said by MaynardKrebs:

Mike,

Even if TSI makes a profit on this, I'd be all for them charging $10,000 per IP researched as it will make trolls think more than twice about pulling these stunts. Wouldn't you?

The price per IP researched should be high because it pulls people away from their regular jobs pushing the company forward.

It gives ISPs an incentive to keep logs forever and sell them at a whim, despite there being absolutely no proof - zero zilch nada - that the IP address was even bona fide to begin with, or the account holder was the offender.

In the courts, costs are "actual costs" incurred, not "what I think they're worth in this wicked little cottage industry we've spawned". To do otherwise offends me. Seriously, this whole thing stinks to high heaven man. Tinfoil or no, I'm pissed about this in a big way and I just can't get my head around it.

FWIW, I think it should be a criminal offense to release that information to anyone.

Mike
--
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Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged

MaynardKrebs
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1 edit

Given that TSI had 4 passes through their data, had about 50% uncorrelated ip's, and a number misidentified, that should be enough to call into question the accuracy of all their data at any trial.

It wouldn't matter even if they retained logs for 100 years - errors and missing/uncorrelated data of that magnitude call into question ANY information TSI provides anyone.

And more importantly it calls into question the entirety of the data provided by Canipre/Voltage as to which IP's allegedly infringed. If between Canipre's garbage input data errors and TSI garbage output there is a 50% error rate that's observed, what probability is there that the remaining 50% isn't riddled with errors too.

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say, we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don’t know we don’t know. -- Donald Rumsfeld



AkFubar
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join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.

1 recommendation

reply to callous10

The judge is suspicious as to how IP = persons accused



neko
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reply to callous10

@pandersen tweeted:

"Judge: It is not clear what an ISP (IP) number correlates to the individual involved in the activity #voltage"

Nice of the judge to pick up on that, as it alludes to proving someone is directly responsible. Perhaps later the court may ask the question, "Is an IP address an individual"
--
...virtue gives you heraldry.



Dr Facts

@gc.ca
reply to TwiztedZero

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

>TSI offers to send notice on behalf of #Voltage asking them to stop. Voltage will as long as their is no costs. TSI agrees.

So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

How do you square that circle?

At any rate another skirmish lost by the Trolls.



neko
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reply to AkFubar

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Beat me to it