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dillyhammer
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join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
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reply to MFido

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

said by MFido:

This post of yours shows (again) how limited your view is ... no news

Count the lawyers, Marc's time, etc ... they are not all paid $10/h

You are really a bad ass against Teksavvy, without a reason ...



Mike
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MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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reply to dillyhammer
Mike,

Even if TSI makes a profit on this, I'd be all for them charging $10,000 per IP researched as it will make trolls think more than twice about pulling these stunts. Wouldn't you?

The price per IP researched should be high because it pulls people away from their regular jobs pushing the company forward.


Atticka

join:2001-11-26
Montreal, QC
Exactly, it would be hard for Voltage to argue the loss of productivity of these employees working on pulling the data and the loss of profit TSI would incur due to this.

All costs and lost profits considered $190k is cheap!


dillyhammer
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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

Mike,

Even if TSI makes a profit on this, I'd be all for them charging $10,000 per IP researched as it will make trolls think more than twice about pulling these stunts. Wouldn't you?

The price per IP researched should be high because it pulls people away from their regular jobs pushing the company forward.

It gives ISPs an incentive to keep logs forever and sell them at a whim, despite there being absolutely no proof - zero zilch nada - that the IP address was even bona fide to begin with, or the account holder was the offender.

In the courts, costs are "actual costs" incurred, not "what I think they're worth in this wicked little cottage industry we've spawned". To do otherwise offends me. Seriously, this whole thing stinks to high heaven man. Tinfoil or no, I'm pissed about this in a big way and I just can't get my head around it.

FWIW, I think it should be a criminal offense to release that information to anyone.

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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1 edit
Given that TSI had 4 passes through their data, had about 50% uncorrelated ip's, and a number misidentified, that should be enough to call into question the accuracy of all their data at any trial.

It wouldn't matter even if they retained logs for 100 years - errors and missing/uncorrelated data of that magnitude call into question ANY information TSI provides anyone.

And more importantly it calls into question the entirety of the data provided by Canipre/Voltage as to which IP's allegedly infringed. If between Canipre's garbage input data errors and TSI garbage output there is a 50% error rate that's observed, what probability is there that the remaining 50% isn't riddled with errors too.

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say, we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don’t know we don’t know. -- Donald Rumsfeld


AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.

1 recommendation

reply to callous10
The judge is suspicious as to how IP = persons accused


neko
All Hail Canada
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reply to callous10
@pandersen tweeted:

"Judge: It is not clear what an ISP (IP) number correlates to the individual involved in the activity #voltage"

Nice of the judge to pick up on that, as it alludes to proving someone is directly responsible. Perhaps later the court may ask the question, "Is an IP address an individual"
--
...virtue gives you heraldry.


Dr Facts

@gc.ca
reply to TwiztedZero

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

>TSI offers to send notice on behalf of #Voltage asking them to stop. Voltage will as long as their is no costs. TSI agrees.

So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

How do you square that circle?

At any rate another skirmish lost by the Trolls.


neko
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reply to AkFubar

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Beat me to it


dillyhammer
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reply to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

Given that TSI had 4 passes through their data, had about 50% uncorrelated ip's, and a number misidentified, that should be enough to call into question the accuracy of all their data at any trial.

It wouldn't matter even if they retained logs for 100 years - errors and missing/uncorrelated data of that magnitude call into question ANY information TSI provides anyone, and more importantly it calls into question the entirety of the data provided by Canipre/Voltage as to which IP's allegedly infringed.

Agreed.

I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

Mike
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Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


El Quintron
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said by dillyhammer:

I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

Mike

The death of a lawsuit by a thousand cuts?
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AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
reply to callous10
LOL judge wanted to know how Voltage plans to deal with 1000 litigants in front of his court.


eweazel

join:2008-12-09
Etobicoke, ON
Reviews:
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reply to callous10
People are all up in arms over Teksavvy and how they are dealing with this. After today, we see they are going about this the right way, and that is make it difficult, time consuming and expensive that Voltage will move on. I like how they are doing this, better then a knee jerk reaction that most people wanted.

mlord

join:2006-11-05
Nepean, ON
kudos:13
reply to El Quintron
Based on what can be gleaned from the twitter feeds, I am rather encouraged by and thankful to Teksavvy for their active participation in today's proceedings.

Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").


TwiztedZero
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reply to AkFubar
Twitterverse Stuff & Updates, Sorry if some are out of chronicle order but did the best I could. Enjoy

Tweets from Court


AkFubar
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reply to callous10
Well people should have not expected that TSI would be talking strategy on here in an open forum. I had a feeling they would make things difficult today.
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eweazel

join:2008-12-09
Etobicoke, ON
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reply to TwiztedZero
said by TwiztedZero:

Twitterverse Stuff & Updates, Sorry if some are out of chronicle order but did the best I could. Enjoy

Tweets from Court

My hat off to you on the updates !!


koolin

join:2005-12-20
Canada
reply to TwiztedZero
said by TwiztedZero:

Twitterverse Stuff & Updates, Sorry if some are out of chronicle order but did the best I could. Enjoy

Tweets from Court

thank you


KPaul

join:2007-02-08
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reply to callous10
I for one welcome our new Teksavvy overlords. I would like to remind them that as a trusted patron of their services, I can be helpful in rounding of others to toil in your underground fiber networks.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du0d8QxlSYk

--
I hate rogers and their CRAP tech. support... But, MAJOR kudos to the TekSavvy team!


El Quintron
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reply to mlord
said by mlord:

Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

Same here. Not being on "The List" doesn't mean you won't be one day. Something to keep in mind.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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said by El Quintron:

said by mlord:

Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

Same here. Not being on "The List" doesn't mean you won't be one day. Something to keep in mind.

Anyone could be given the quality of the input data from Canipre and any errors in TSI's (or any other ISP) systems.


El Quintron
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said by MaynardKrebs:

Anyone could be given the quality of the input data from Canipre and any errors in TSI's (or any other ISP) systems.

Considering Voltage is looking for approval to go on a court-sanctioned fishing expedition, and not pursue lawsuits, it isn't surprising that the input data is inaccurate, you could argue it was set up that way by design.
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MaynardKrebs
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reply to callous10
Just a point about costs and addressed to everyone who has felt that TSI is just using this Voltage matter as a money-making venture:

a) TSI has stated in court (under pain of perjury) that their costs thus far in the matter are $190k.
b) Today TSI was not awarded any costs in the matter, though that could change in the future.
c) Result: TSI is out-of-pocket $190k (for now, with no guarantee of recovering any/all their costs in the future) while attempting to ensure that this whole matter is given due process, that people's identities were not handed over to Voltage without them being notified, that people had been given enough time to get their own legal counsel, and that CIPPIC had enough time to get involved if they wanted to, that important points in law are given the hearing they deserve before any PI information is handed over to anyone.

Contrast TSI's behaviour with that of the other ISP's who recently simply handed over customer names, without notice to the customers, and pocketed the cash for each name. These ISP's made money on ratting out their customers.

So I say, good work TSI.
Now, reduce your log retention to 2-4 weeks.

JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
Reviews:
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reply to Dr Facts

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

said by Dr Facts :

So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

They are separate things. Voltage wants the logs for the time period in question (60 days in Sept-Oct?) preserved and then ongoing sharing stopped... unfortunately that argument is pure insanity since the files will continue to be shared regardless of compliance by the alleged.

That was one argument that I was surprised didn't come out... at this time the infringement is only alleged - to me cease and desist would come after infringement has been proven. Not sure how that works though... off to do some research.

Edit: Ahh... cease and desist letters are different from cease and desist orders.

Jaxom

join:2012-03-10
East York, ON
reply to TwiztedZero
said by TwiztedZero:

Judge wants to court to be informed by what is an "IP" number #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

Oh sweet Jesus.


upurasswmgas

@torland.is
reply to dillyhammer

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

said by dillyhammer:

Sorry. I'm with Voltage on this one

That's cause you have not been accused of BS "commercial" "infringement" (don't worry trolls are acoming in stores near you)


Oatz00

@york.ca
reply to dillyhammer
It's unlikely companies keep random staff around for work like this.

They're based outside of Toronto, so add travel & hotel (At least two trips, possibly more to meet with lawyers, etc). Easily $20k+staffing costs right there.

Lawyers easily gobble up money - No idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the $20-40k range.

4 weeks of a CEO's time making $250k is $20k. Not to mention the lead guys dealing with the angry customers, checking and verifying all the data, setting up the a delivery system, etc...

Who keeps random extra staff around? Tack on overtime, and you'll easily come within range of the $190k.


Dr Facts

@gc.ca
reply to dillyhammer
>I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

I'm wondering if TSI has been playing opossum, seems to me they helped throw a few spanners into the TrollWorks and Voltage seemed pretty pissed about it.

If the judge is questioning the validity of the "evidence" Voltage has gathered then this all might go the exact opposite of what I thought.

We could be on the cusp of ending these lawsuits before they start.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to Dr Facts

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

said by Dr Facts :

>So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

How do you square that circle?

Uhhh..... easily? One can stop sharing files without deleting them.