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dillyhammer
START me up
Premium Member
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON

1 recommendation

dillyhammer to MaynardKrebs

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to MaynardKrebs

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

said by MaynardKrebs:

Given that TSI had 4 passes through their data, had about 50% uncorrelated ip's, and a number misidentified, that should be enough to call into question the accuracy of all their data at any trial.

It wouldn't matter even if they retained logs for 100 years - errors and missing/uncorrelated data of that magnitude call into question ANY information TSI provides anyone, and more importantly it calls into question the entirety of the data provided by Canipre/Voltage as to which IP's allegedly infringed.

Agreed.

I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

Mike

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

1 recommendation

El Quintron

Premium Member

said by dillyhammer:

I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

Mike

The death of a lawsuit by a thousand cuts?

AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan
join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.

AkFubar to callous10

Member

to callous10
LOL judge wanted to know how Voltage plans to deal with 1000 litigants in front of his court.

eweazel
join:2008-12-09
Etobicoke, ON

eweazel to callous10

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to callous10
People are all up in arms over Teksavvy and how they are dealing with this. After today, we see they are going about this the right way, and that is make it difficult, time consuming and expensive that Voltage will move on. I like how they are doing this, better then a knee jerk reaction that most people wanted.
mlord
join:2006-11-05
Kanata, ON

mlord to El Quintron

Member

to El Quintron
Based on what can be gleaned from the twitter feeds, I am rather encouraged by and thankful to Teksavvy for their active participation in today's proceedings.

Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium Member
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON

TwiztedZero to AkFubar

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to AkFubar
Twitterverse Stuff & Updates, Sorry if some are out of chronicle order but did the best I could. Enjoy

Tweets from Court

AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan
join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.

1 recommendation

AkFubar to callous10

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to callous10
Well people should have not expected that TSI would be talking strategy on here in an open forum. I had a feeling they would make things difficult today.

eweazel
join:2008-12-09
Etobicoke, ON

eweazel to TwiztedZero

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to TwiztedZero
said by TwiztedZero:

Twitterverse Stuff & Updates, Sorry if some are out of chronicle order but did the best I could. Enjoy

Tweets from Court

My hat off to you on the updates !!

koolin
join:2005-12-20
Canada

koolin to TwiztedZero

Member

to TwiztedZero
said by TwiztedZero:

Twitterverse Stuff & Updates, Sorry if some are out of chronicle order but did the best I could. Enjoy

Tweets from Court

thank you

KPaul
join:2007-02-08

KPaul to callous10

Member

to callous10
I for one welcome our new Teksavvy overlords. I would like to remind them that as a trusted patron of their services, I can be helpful in rounding of others to toil in your underground fiber networks.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· d8QxlSYk

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron to mlord

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to mlord
said by mlord:

Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

Same here. Not being on "The List" doesn't mean you won't be one day. Something to keep in mind.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs

Premium Member

said by El Quintron:

said by mlord:

Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

Same here. Not being on "The List" doesn't mean you won't be one day. Something to keep in mind.

Anyone could be given the quality of the input data from Canipre and any errors in TSI's (or any other ISP) systems.

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron

Premium Member

said by MaynardKrebs:

Anyone could be given the quality of the input data from Canipre and any errors in TSI's (or any other ISP) systems.

Considering Voltage is looking for approval to go on a court-sanctioned fishing expedition, and not pursue lawsuits, it isn't surprising that the input data is inaccurate, you could argue it was set up that way by design.
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

1 recommendation

MaynardKrebs to callous10

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to callous10
Just a point about costs and addressed to everyone who has felt that TSI is just using this Voltage matter as a money-making venture:

a) TSI has stated in court (under pain of perjury) that their costs thus far in the matter are $190k.
b) Today TSI was not awarded any costs in the matter, though that could change in the future.
c) Result: TSI is out-of-pocket $190k (for now, with no guarantee of recovering any/all their costs in the future) while attempting to ensure that this whole matter is given due process, that people's identities were not handed over to Voltage without them being notified, that people had been given enough time to get their own legal counsel, and that CIPPIC had enough time to get involved if they wanted to, that important points in law are given the hearing they deserve before any PI information is handed over to anyone.

Contrast TSI's behaviour with that of the other ISP's who recently simply handed over customer names, without notice to the customers, and pocketed the cash for each name. These ISP's made money on ratting out their customers.

So I say, good work TSI.
Now, reduce your log retention to 2-4 weeks.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

JMJimmy to Dr Facts

Member

to Dr Facts

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

said by Dr Facts :

So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

They are separate things. Voltage wants the logs for the time period in question (60 days in Sept-Oct?) preserved and then ongoing sharing stopped... unfortunately that argument is pure insanity since the files will continue to be shared regardless of compliance by the alleged.

That was one argument that I was surprised didn't come out... at this time the infringement is only alleged - to me cease and desist would come after infringement has been proven. Not sure how that works though... off to do some research.

Edit: Ahh... cease and desist letters are different from cease and desist orders.
Jaxom
join:2012-03-10
East York, ON

Jaxom to TwiztedZero

Member

to TwiztedZero
said by TwiztedZero:

Judge wants to court to be informed by what is an "IP" number #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

Oh sweet Jesus.

upurasswmgas
@torland.is

upurasswmgas to dillyhammer

Anon

to dillyhammer

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

said by dillyhammer:

Sorry. I'm with Voltage on this one

That's cause you have not been accused of BS "commercial" "infringement" (don't worry trolls are acoming in stores near you)

Oatz00
@york.ca

Oatz00 to dillyhammer

Anon

to dillyhammer
It's unlikely companies keep random staff around for work like this.

They're based outside of Toronto, so add travel & hotel (At least two trips, possibly more to meet with lawyers, etc). Easily $20k+staffing costs right there.

Lawyers easily gobble up money - No idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the $20-40k range.

4 weeks of a CEO's time making $250k is $20k. Not to mention the lead guys dealing with the angry customers, checking and verifying all the data, setting up the a delivery system, etc...

Who keeps random extra staff around? Tack on overtime, and you'll easily come within range of the $190k.

Dr Facts
@gc.ca

Dr Facts to dillyhammer

Anon

to dillyhammer
>I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

I'm wondering if TSI has been playing opossum, seems to me they helped throw a few spanners into the TrollWorks and Voltage seemed pretty pissed about it.

If the judge is questioning the validity of the "evidence" Voltage has gathered then this all might go the exact opposite of what I thought.

We could be on the cusp of ending these lawsuits before they start.
bt
join:2009-02-26
canada

bt to Dr Facts

Member

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Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

said by Dr Facts :

>So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

How do you square that circle?

Uhhh..... easily? One can stop sharing files without deleting them.
keenmay
join:2010-08-22

keenmay to MaynardKrebs

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to MaynardKrebs

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Which ISP gave its customer info to Voltage recently?
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17

MaynardKrebs to Dr Facts

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to Dr Facts
said by Dr Facts :

We could be on the cusp of ending these lawsuits before they start.

This will only encourage the Americans to steamroller us with the TPP sooner.
MaynardKrebs

MaynardKrebs to keenmay

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to keenmay
said by keenmay:

Which ISP gave its customer info to Voltage recently?

There were 2 IIRC.
Poke around in the Canadian forums and you'll find their names and some brief discussion of the events.

anonu
@nltelcom.net

anonu to MaynardKrebs

Anon

to MaynardKrebs
Which ISP gave out customer info recently?

Dr Facts
@gc.ca

Dr Facts to bt

Anon

to bt

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

>Uhhh..... easily? One can stop sharing files without deleting them.

Can you? I thought the way Bittorrents worked is that the files are up loaded and downloaded at the same time? I guess a user could cut the file out and put it someplace else on their hard drive.

Don't see that happening...
Dr Facts

Dr Facts to JMJimmy

Anon

to JMJimmy
said by JMJimmy:

They are separate things. Voltage wants the logs for the time period in question (60 days in Sept-Oct?) preserved and then ongoing sharing stopped... unfortunately that argument is pure insanity

When it all came to my attention I thought it was just a way for Voltage to make some easy money but after reading what the Voltage CEO said in reply to an email about how maybe suing people for watching your movies isn't a good idea it became clear we are dealing with insanity.

What's also crazy is even if Voltage wins (which is looking doubtful) that won't stop a single byte of their shite movies from being shared.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

JMJimmy to dillyhammer

Member

to dillyhammer

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

said by dillyhammer:

said by stevey_frac:

I'm assuming they can't charge for names they were unable to associate.

The work still has to be done, and costs would still be incurred, even if it doesn't result in a name - for whatever reason.

But at, say, 500 per week per person, 190k is what? 380 people for a week? 38 people for 10 weeks? Seriously. They've been at this for what, 4 weeks? Did they really have 95 people working on this full time for the last month? I think not.

This just stinks to high heaven.

Mike

Lets actually do the math here:

Somewhere between 2000-2300 associations:

$190,000 / 2000-2300 = $82 - $95 per request. Bhell charges $95 for a simple activation which is a pretty automated thing. This is a highly unusual thing with no automation (their top people had to manually associate all the data)

If anything the number is low. Once you factor in the cost of a lawyer ($5k retainer for a good one), Marc's time, the soft costs of taking your top techs off their regular duties to deal with this (ie: someone has to fill that gap = extra staffing = HR costs or overtime costs), additional support hours to deal with calls from customers, log preservation, lost productivity, hard costs (food, lodging, travel, etc for court dates), etc.

There's a lot more than just the time/pay for the individual making the associations. I was given a case study once, a simple software upgrade for a law office from office 2003 to 2007. Cost for the software upgrade: less than $10k. Actual cost to the company: $100k-160k in soft costs.
bt
join:2009-02-26
canada

bt to Dr Facts

Member

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Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

said by Dr Facts :

Can you? I thought the way Bittorrents worked is that the files are up loaded and downloaded at the same time?

That's correct. Though it assumes a person is still downloading the file. But even if they are, they can still stop uploading it by stopping the download.
said by Dr Facts :

I guess a user could cut the file out and put it someplace else on their hard drive.

That's not how Bittorrent works. It doesn't share everything in a specific location like some other file sharing systems do.

Worst case, someone could just turn off their bittorrent client. Any files already downloaded continue to exist, and no further uploading happens.
JMJimmy
join:2008-07-23

JMJimmy to TwiztedZero

Member

to TwiztedZero
said by TwiztedZero:

Judge: no costs. #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

I missed this one... No costs for anyone or just for Voltage's lame request for costs due to adjournment?

AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan
join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.

AkFubar to callous10

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Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

TSI was denied the $190K they were seeking for the IDs of the IPs that Voltage provided. Presumably because the matter of the release of the IDs is still not decided.