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El Quintron
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reply to mlord

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

said by mlord:

Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

Same here. Not being on "The List" doesn't mean you won't be one day. Something to keep in mind.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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said by El Quintron:

said by mlord:

Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

Same here. Not being on "The List" doesn't mean you won't be one day. Something to keep in mind.

Anyone could be given the quality of the input data from Canipre and any errors in TSI's (or any other ISP) systems.


El Quintron
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said by MaynardKrebs:

Anyone could be given the quality of the input data from Canipre and any errors in TSI's (or any other ISP) systems.

Considering Voltage is looking for approval to go on a court-sanctioned fishing expedition, and not pursue lawsuits, it isn't surprising that the input data is inaccurate, you could argue it was set up that way by design.
--
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MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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1 recommendation

reply to callous10

Just a point about costs and addressed to everyone who has felt that TSI is just using this Voltage matter as a money-making venture:

a) TSI has stated in court (under pain of perjury) that their costs thus far in the matter are $190k.
b) Today TSI was not awarded any costs in the matter, though that could change in the future.
c) Result: TSI is out-of-pocket $190k (for now, with no guarantee of recovering any/all their costs in the future) while attempting to ensure that this whole matter is given due process, that people's identities were not handed over to Voltage without them being notified, that people had been given enough time to get their own legal counsel, and that CIPPIC had enough time to get involved if they wanted to, that important points in law are given the hearing they deserve before any PI information is handed over to anyone.

Contrast TSI's behaviour with that of the other ISP's who recently simply handed over customer names, without notice to the customers, and pocketed the cash for each name. These ISP's made money on ratting out their customers.

So I say, good work TSI.
Now, reduce your log retention to 2-4 weeks.


JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
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reply to Dr Facts

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

said by Dr Facts :

So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

They are separate things. Voltage wants the logs for the time period in question (60 days in Sept-Oct?) preserved and then ongoing sharing stopped... unfortunately that argument is pure insanity since the files will continue to be shared regardless of compliance by the alleged.

That was one argument that I was surprised didn't come out... at this time the infringement is only alleged - to me cease and desist would come after infringement has been proven. Not sure how that works though... off to do some research.

Edit: Ahh... cease and desist letters are different from cease and desist orders.

Jaxom

join:2012-03-10
East York, ON
reply to TwiztedZero

said by TwiztedZero:

Judge wants to court to be informed by what is an "IP" number #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

Oh sweet Jesus.


upurasswmgas

@torland.is
reply to dillyhammer

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

said by dillyhammer:

Sorry. I'm with Voltage on this one

That's cause you have not been accused of BS "commercial" "infringement" (don't worry trolls are acoming in stores near you)


Oatz00

@york.ca
reply to dillyhammer

It's unlikely companies keep random staff around for work like this.

They're based outside of Toronto, so add travel & hotel (At least two trips, possibly more to meet with lawyers, etc). Easily $20k+staffing costs right there.

Lawyers easily gobble up money - No idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the $20-40k range.

4 weeks of a CEO's time making $250k is $20k. Not to mention the lead guys dealing with the angry customers, checking and verifying all the data, setting up the a delivery system, etc...

Who keeps random extra staff around? Tack on overtime, and you'll easily come within range of the $190k.



Dr Facts

@gc.ca
reply to dillyhammer

>I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

I'm wondering if TSI has been playing opossum, seems to me they helped throw a few spanners into the TrollWorks and Voltage seemed pretty pissed about it.

If the judge is questioning the validity of the "evidence" Voltage has gathered then this all might go the exact opposite of what I thought.

We could be on the cusp of ending these lawsuits before they start.


bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to Dr Facts

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

said by Dr Facts :

>So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

How do you square that circle?

Uhhh..... easily? One can stop sharing files without deleting them.

keenmay

join:2010-08-22
reply to MaynardKrebs

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Which ISP gave its customer info to Voltage recently?


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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reply to Dr Facts

said by Dr Facts :

We could be on the cusp of ending these lawsuits before they start.

This will only encourage the Americans to steamroller us with the TPP sooner.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
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reply to keenmay

said by keenmay:

Which ISP gave its customer info to Voltage recently?

There were 2 IIRC.
Poke around in the Canadian forums and you'll find their names and some brief discussion of the events.


anonu

@nltelcom.net
reply to MaynardKrebs

Which ISP gave out customer info recently?



Dr Facts

@gc.ca
reply to bt

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

>Uhhh..... easily? One can stop sharing files without deleting them.

Can you? I thought the way Bittorrents worked is that the files are up loaded and downloaded at the same time? I guess a user could cut the file out and put it someplace else on their hard drive.

Don't see that happening...



Dr Facts

@gc.ca
reply to JMJimmy

said by JMJimmy:

They are separate things. Voltage wants the logs for the time period in question (60 days in Sept-Oct?) preserved and then ongoing sharing stopped... unfortunately that argument is pure insanity

When it all came to my attention I thought it was just a way for Voltage to make some easy money but after reading what the Voltage CEO said in reply to an email about how maybe suing people for watching your movies isn't a good idea it became clear we are dealing with insanity.

What's also crazy is even if Voltage wins (which is looking doubtful) that won't stop a single byte of their shite movies from being shared.

JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
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reply to dillyhammer

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

said by dillyhammer:

said by stevey_frac:

I'm assuming they can't charge for names they were unable to associate.

The work still has to be done, and costs would still be incurred, even if it doesn't result in a name - for whatever reason.

But at, say, 500 per week per person, 190k is what? 380 people for a week? 38 people for 10 weeks? Seriously. They've been at this for what, 4 weeks? Did they really have 95 people working on this full time for the last month? I think not.

This just stinks to high heaven.

Mike

Lets actually do the math here:

Somewhere between 2000-2300 associations:

$190,000 / 2000-2300 = $82 - $95 per request. Bhell charges $95 for a simple activation which is a pretty automated thing. This is a highly unusual thing with no automation (their top people had to manually associate all the data)

If anything the number is low. Once you factor in the cost of a lawyer ($5k retainer for a good one), Marc's time, the soft costs of taking your top techs off their regular duties to deal with this (ie: someone has to fill that gap = extra staffing = HR costs or overtime costs), additional support hours to deal with calls from customers, log preservation, lost productivity, hard costs (food, lodging, travel, etc for court dates), etc.

There's a lot more than just the time/pay for the individual making the associations. I was given a case study once, a simple software upgrade for a law office from office 2003 to 2007. Cost for the software upgrade: less than $10k. Actual cost to the company: $100k-160k in soft costs.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
reply to Dr Facts

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

said by Dr Facts :

Can you? I thought the way Bittorrents worked is that the files are up loaded and downloaded at the same time?

That's correct. Though it assumes a person is still downloading the file. But even if they are, they can still stop uploading it by stopping the download.

said by Dr Facts :

I guess a user could cut the file out and put it someplace else on their hard drive.

That's not how Bittorrent works. It doesn't share everything in a specific location like some other file sharing systems do.

Worst case, someone could just turn off their bittorrent client. Any files already downloaded continue to exist, and no further uploading happens.

JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
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reply to TwiztedZero

said by TwiztedZero:

Judge: no costs. #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

I missed this one... No costs for anyone or just for Voltage's lame request for costs due to adjournment?


AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
reply to callous10

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

TSI was denied the $190K they were seeking for the IDs of the IPs that Voltage provided. Presumably because the matter of the release of the IDs is still not decided.


shepd

join:2004-01-17
Kitchener, ON
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said by AkFubar:

TSI was denied the $190K they were seeking for the IDs of the IPs that Voltage provided. Presumably because the matter of the release of the IDs is still not decided.

So it's just temporary then, they should still be able to fight for it in the future when the matter is settled?


AkFubar
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join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
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said by shepd:

said by AkFubar:

TSI was denied the $190K they were seeking for the IDs of the IPs that Voltage provided. Presumably because the matter of the release of the IDs is still not decided.

So it's just temporary then, they should still be able to fight for it in the future when the matter is settled?

I would think so. Depends on the exact wording the judge used. Not sure if it was a direct quote from the judge we were given on Twitter. Financial Post was covering this, might be a write up on this with more details from them.

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TwiztedZero
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2 edits
reply to TwiztedZero

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Don't have a twitter account, no problem you can see the actual tweets themselves
here: Search Results: #teksavvy OR Twubs #Teksavvy

quote:
See these for full threads with a little more detail:
@PAnderson
@SVILaw
@mgeist
@RessyM
@christinedobby
and see if you can make heads & Tails of it on your own
Cheers
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----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
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Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca


AkFubar
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join:2005-02-28
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reply to callous10

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Already posted in Financial Post: »business.financialpost.com/2013/···ng-case/
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.


MaynardKrebs
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reply to JMJimmy

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

said by JMJimmy:

said by TwiztedZero:

Judge: no costs. #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

I missed this one... No costs for anyone or just for Voltage's lame request for costs due to adjournment?

No costs yet.....this circus isn't over, so don't expect any costs awards until later on in the process. Even if Voltage 'wins' release of the data, TSI will probably get some costs for the assembly of the data they compiled but will probably not get all their legitimate costs of the full court action.

MaynardKrebs
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reply to AkFubar

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

In the National Post article:
"Judge Mandamin said this needs careful explanation and the court needs to be well informed of the connection between IP addresses and the information Voltage has on alleged infringers."

Sounds like it's right up JF's alley

We walked in, sat down, Obie came in with the twenty seven eight-by-ten
colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
of each one, sat down. Man came in said, "All rise." We all stood up,
and Obie stood up with the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
pictures, and the judge walked in sat down with a seeing eye dog, and he
sat down, we sat down. Obie looked at the seeing eye dog, and then at the
twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows
and a paragraph on the back of each one, and looked at the seeing eye dog.
And then at twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles
and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one and began to cry,
'cause Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of American
blind justice, and there wasn't nothing he could do about it, and the
judge wasn't going to look at the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each
one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us. And
we was fined $50 and had to pick up the garbage in the snow, but thats not
what I came to tell you about.

--- Alice's Restaurant, by Arlo Guthrie



HiVolt
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reply to Dr Facts

quote:
Judge: What is the connection between IP number and parties. Not automatically apparent what that is. #voltage (PAnderson)
This is very important.

It is absolutely obvious to anyone that an IP address does not equal a single person using that IP address, and that person being the account holder.

I would think that if the judge is seeking this info, that it can be very easily explained to him.
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mmmm

@207.61.188.x
reply to callous10

11am


resa1983
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North York, ON
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reply to callous10

I literally got chills when the Judge asked/stated about being able to confirm if the subscriber of the specific IP, was in fact the copyright infringer.

Its taken US courts quiet a long time to realize that its not.
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AkFubar
Admittedly, A Teksavvy Fan

join:2005-02-28
Toronto CAN.
reply to callous10

LOL mebbe the judge was reading this forum.