Topic 'What time is the hearing for Jan14th?' in forum 'TekSavvy' - dslreports.com

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:02:21 EDT

JMJimmy posted :

Judge: no costs. #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

I missed this one... No costs for anyone or just for Voltage's lame request for costs due to adjournment?

I confirmed this with SVILaw - the costs that were denied were Voltage's request that CIPPIC pay their costs for adjournment.

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:37:09 EDT

Poser posted : Voltage accuses CIPPIC and Teksavvy working together to create delays. I wonder if Voltage, Rogers and Bell are working together to try to bleed Teksavvy out of a large sum of money in court costs.

190k is a lot of money. Can Teksavvy afford this?

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:36:17 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted :

said by HiVolt:

quote:
Judge: What is the connection between IP number and parties. Not automatically apparent what that is. #voltage (PAnderson)

This is very important.

It is absolutely obvious to anyone that an IP address does not equal a single person using that IP address, and that person being the account holder.

I would think that if the judge is seeking this info, that it can be very easily explained to him.

We all thought that it would be easy to 'splain simple things to 'Konrad and the Commissioners'tm too.
Look how long that took to sink in, and how much shit ensued because it didn't sink in early on. We're still dealing with the fallout from that 5+ years later.

Konrad and the Commissioners is a registered trademark of Maynard G. Krebs Enterprises, Panama, Limited.
All Rights Reserved.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:24:17 EDT

resa1983 posted :

said by stevey_frac:

I read it as, the judge was unwilling to make a pronouncement and set a precedent, but was subtly hinting to Voltage that what they are attempting was unconscionable. That, combined with asking how Voltage attempted to deal with 1000 defendants in his court indicates to me that the judge knows what's going on.

Yes & no..

He said he already had a major case that is taking up his time, and didn't know whether or not he'd be able to take this case on on top of the original major case.
Which was why he wasn't going to make any major decisions, so that another judge who did have the time - as this is going to a major full day court date sometime after the 22nd - could make all the decisions, without some other judge's decisions/prejudices getting in the way.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:20:55 EDT

stevey_frac posted : I read it as, the judge was unwilling to make a pronouncement and set a precedent, but was subtly hinting to Voltage that what they are attempting was unconscionable. That, combined with asking how Voltage attempted to deal with 1000 defendants in his court indicates to me that the judge knows what's going on.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:09:13 EDT

AkFubar posted : LOL mebbe the judge was reading this forum. :D

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:07:43 EDT

resa1983 posted : I literally got chills when the Judge asked/stated about being able to confirm if the subscriber of the specific IP, was in fact the copyright infringer.

Its taken US courts quiet a long time to realize that its not.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:54:07 EDT

anon posted : 11am

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:52:13 EDT

HiVolt posted :

quote:
Judge: What is the connection between IP number and parties. Not automatically apparent what that is. #voltage (PAnderson)

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:50:47 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted : In the National Post article:
"Judge Mandamin said this “needs careful explanation” and the court needs to be well informed of the connection between IP addresses and the information Voltage has on alleged infringers."

Sounds like it's right up JF's alley :p

We walked in, sat down, Obie came in with the twenty seven eight-by-ten
colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
of each one, sat down. Man came in said, "All rise." We all stood up,
and Obie stood up with the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
pictures, and the judge walked in sat down with a seeing eye dog, and he
sat down, we sat down. Obie looked at the seeing eye dog, and then at the
twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows
and a paragraph on the back of each one, and looked at the seeing eye dog.
And then at twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles
and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one and began to cry,
'cause Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of American
blind justice, and there wasn't nothing he could do about it, and the
judge wasn't going to look at the twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy
pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each
one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against us. And
we was fined $50 and had to pick up the garbage in the snow, but thats not
what I came to tell you about.

--- Alice's Restaurant, by Arlo Guthrie

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:45:11 EDT
MaynardKrebs posted :
said by JMJimmy:
said by TwiztedZero:
Judge: no costs. #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

I missed this one... No costs for anyone or just for Voltage's lame request for costs due to adjournment?

No costs yet.....this circus isn't over, so don't expect any costs awards until later on in the process. Even if Voltage 'wins' release of the data, TSI will probably get some costs for the assembly of the data they compiled but will probably not get all their legitimate costs of the full court action.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:33:24 EDT
AkFubar posted : Already posted in Financial Post: »business.financialpost.com/2013/···ng-case/
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:30:39 EDT
TwiztedZero posted : Don't have a twitter account, no problem you can see the actual tweets themselves
here: Search Results: #teksavvy OR Twubs #Teksavvy

quote:
See these for full threads with a little more detail:
@PAnderson
@SVILaw
@mgeist
@RessyM
@christinedobby

and see if you can make heads & Tails of it on your own :)
Cheers
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:21:34 EDT
AkFubar posted :
said by shepd:
said by AkFubar:
TSI was denied the $190K they were seeking for the IDs of the IPs that Voltage provided. Presumably because the matter of the release of the IDs is still not decided.
So it's just temporary then, they should still be able to fight for it in the future when the matter is settled?

I would think so. Depends on the exact wording the judge used. Not sure if it was a direct quote from the judge we were given on Twitter. Financial Post was covering this, might be a write up on this with more details from them.

--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:19:23 EDT
shepd posted :
said by AkFubar:
TSI was denied the $190K they were seeking for the IDs of the IPs that Voltage provided. Presumably because the matter of the release of the IDs is still not decided.
So it's just temporary then, they should still be able to fight for it in the future when the matter is settled?

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:15:02 EDT
AkFubar posted : TSI was denied the $190K they were seeking for the IDs of the IPs that Voltage provided. Presumably because the matter of the release of the IDs is still not decided.

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 14:08:01 EDT
JMJimmy posted :
said by TwiztedZero:
Judge: no costs. #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

I missed this one... No costs for anyone or just for Voltage's lame request for costs due to adjournment?

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:47:27 EDT
bt posted :
said by Dr Facts :
Can you? I thought the way Bittorrents worked is that the files are up loaded and downloaded at the same time?

That's correct. Though it assumes a person is still downloading the file. But even if they are, they can still stop uploading it by stopping the download.

said by Dr Facts :
I guess a user could cut the file out and put it someplace else on their hard drive.
That's not how Bittorrent works. It doesn't share everything in a specific location like some other file sharing systems do.

Worst case, someone could just turn off their bittorrent client. Any files already downloaded continue to exist, and no further uploading happens.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:45:45 EDT
JMJimmy posted :
said by dillyhammer:
said by stevey_frac:
I'm assuming they can't charge for names they were unable to associate.

The work still has to be done, and costs would still be incurred, even if it doesn't result in a name - for whatever reason.

But at, say, 500 per week per person, 190k is what? 380 people for a week? 38 people for 10 weeks? Seriously. They've been at this for what, 4 weeks? Did they really have 95 people working on this full time for the last month? I think not.

This just stinks to high heaven.

Mike

Lets actually do the math here:

Somewhere between 2000-2300 associations:

$190,000 / 2000-2300 = $82 - $95 per request. Bhell charges $95 for a simple activation which is a pretty automated thing. This is a highly unusual thing with no automation (their top people had to manually associate all the data)

If anything the number is low. Once you factor in the cost of a lawyer ($5k retainer for a good one), Marc's time, the soft costs of taking your top techs off their regular duties to deal with this (ie: someone has to fill that gap = extra staffing = HR costs or overtime costs), additional support hours to deal with calls from customers, log preservation, lost productivity, hard costs (food, lodging, travel, etc for court dates), etc.

There's a lot more than just the time/pay for the individual making the associations. I was given a case study once, a simple software upgrade for a law office from office 2003 to 2007. Cost for the software upgrade: less than $10k. Actual cost to the company: $100k-160k in soft costs.

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:40:08 EDT
anon posted :
said by JMJimmy:
They are separate things. Voltage wants the logs for the time period in question (60 days in Sept-Oct?) preserved and then ongoing sharing stopped... unfortunately that argument is pure insanity

When it all came to my attention I thought it was just a way for Voltage to make some easy money but after reading what the Voltage CEO said in reply to an email about how maybe suing people for watching your movies isn't a good idea it became clear we are dealing with insanity.

What's also crazy is even if Voltage wins (which is looking doubtful) that won't stop a single byte of their shite movies from being shared.

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:37:56 EDT
anon posted : >Uhhh..... easily? One can stop sharing files without deleting them.

Can you? I thought the way Bittorrents worked is that the files are up loaded and downloaded at the same time? I guess a user could cut the file out and put it someplace else on their hard drive.

Don't see that happening...

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:36:29 EDT
anon posted : Which ISP gave out customer info recently?

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:28:06 EDT
MaynardKrebs posted :
said by keenmay:
Which ISP gave its customer info to Voltage recently?

There were 2 IIRC.
Poke around in the Canadian forums and you'll find their names and some brief discussion of the events.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:26:58 EDT
MaynardKrebs posted :
said by Dr Facts :
We could be on the cusp of ending these lawsuits before they start.

This will only encourage the Americans to steamroller us with the TPP sooner.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:26:23 EDT
keenmay posted : Which ISP gave its customer info to Voltage recently?

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:26:14 EDT
bt posted :
said by Dr Facts :
>So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

How do you square that circle?

Uhhh..... easily? One can stop sharing files without deleting them.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:24:19 EDT
anon posted : >I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

I'm wondering if TSI has been playing opossum, seems to me they helped throw a few spanners into the TrollWorks and Voltage seemed pretty pissed about it.

If the judge is questioning the validity of the "evidence" Voltage has gathered then this all might go the exact opposite of what I thought.

We could be on the cusp of ending these lawsuits before they start.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:24:14 EDT
anon posted : It's unlikely companies keep random staff around for work like this.

They're based outside of Toronto, so add travel & hotel (At least two trips, possibly more to meet with lawyers, etc). Easily $20k+staffing costs right there.

Lawyers easily gobble up money - No idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the $20-40k range.

4 weeks of a CEO's time making $250k is $20k. Not to mention the lead guys dealing with the angry customers, checking and verifying all the data, setting up the a delivery system, etc...

Who keeps random extra staff around? Tack on overtime, and you'll easily come within range of the $190k.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:23:41 EDT
anon posted :
said by dillyhammer:
Sorry. I'm with Voltage on this one
That's cause you have not been accused of BS "commercial" "infringement" (don't worry trolls are acoming in stores near you)

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:20:51 EDT
Jaxom posted :
said by TwiztedZero:
Judge wants to court to be informed by what is an "IP" number #voltage #teksavvy (SVILaw)

Oh sweet Jesus.

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:18:28 EDT
JMJimmy posted :
said by Dr Facts :
So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

They are separate things. Voltage wants the logs for the time period in question (60 days in Sept-Oct?) preserved and then ongoing sharing stopped... unfortunately that argument is pure insanity since the files will continue to be shared regardless of compliance by the alleged.

That was one argument that I was surprised didn't come out... at this time the infringement is only alleged - to me cease and desist would come after infringement has been proven. Not sure how that works though... off to do some research.

Edit: Ahh... cease and desist letters are different from cease and desist orders.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:16:55 EDT
MaynardKrebs posted : Just a point about costs and addressed to everyone who has felt that TSI is just using this Voltage matter as a money-making venture:

a) TSI has stated in court (under pain of perjury) that their costs thus far in the matter are $190k.
b) Today TSI was not awarded any costs in the matter, though that could change in the future.
c) Result: TSI is out-of-pocket $190k (for now, with no guarantee of recovering any/all their costs in the future) while attempting to ensure that this whole matter is given due process, that people's identities were not handed over to Voltage without them being notified, that people had been given enough time to get their own legal counsel, and that CIPPIC had enough time to get involved if they wanted to, that important points in law are given the hearing they deserve before any PI information is handed over to anyone.

Contrast TSI's behaviour with that of the other ISP's who recently simply handed over customer names, without notice to the customers, and pocketed the cash for each name. These ISP's made money on ratting out their customers.

So I say, good work TSI.
Now, reduce your log retention to 2-4 weeks.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:13:13 EDT
El Quintron posted :
said by MaynardKrebs:
Anyone could be given the quality of the input data from Canipre and any errors in TSI's (or any other ISP) systems.

Considering Voltage is looking for approval to go on a court-sanctioned fishing expedition, and not pursue lawsuits, it isn't surprising that the input data is inaccurate, you could argue it was set up that way by design.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:05:23 EDT
MaynardKrebs posted :
said by El Quintron:
said by mlord:
Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

Same here. Not being on "The List" doesn't mean you won't be one day. Something to keep in mind.

Anyone could be given the quality of the input data from Canipre and any errors in TSI's (or any other ISP) systems.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:02:44 EDT
El Quintron posted :
said by mlord:
Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

Same here. Not being on "The List" doesn't mean you won't be one day. Something to keep in mind.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:59:14 EDT
KPaul posted : I for one welcome our new Teksavvy overlords. I would like to remind them that as a trusted patron of their services, I can be helpful in rounding of others to toil in your underground fiber networks.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du0d8QxlSYk
--
I hate rogers and their CRAP tech. support... But, MAJOR kudos to the TekSavvy team!

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:58:53 EDT
koolin posted :
said by TwiztedZero:
Twitterverse Stuff & Updates, Sorry if some are out of chronicle order but did the best I could. Enjoy

Tweets from Court

thank you :)

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:58:31 EDT
eweazel posted :
said by TwiztedZero:
Twitterverse Stuff & Updates, Sorry if some are out of chronicle order but did the best I could. Enjoy

Tweets from Court

My hat off to you on the updates !!

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:58:25 EDT
AkFubar posted : Well people should have not expected that TSI would be talking strategy on here in an open forum. I had a feeling they would make things difficult today.
--
If my online experience is enhanced, why are my speeds throttled?? BHell... A Public Futility.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:57:18 EDT
TwiztedZero posted : Twitterverse Stuff & Updates, Sorry if some are out of chronicle order but did the best I could. Enjoy

Tweets from Court

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:56:48 EDT
mlord posted : Based on what can be gleaned from the twitter feeds, I am rather encouraged by and thankful to Teksavvy for their active participation in today's proceedings.

Thanks, guys!
(even though I'm not on "The List").

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:56:43 EDT
eweazel posted : People are all up in arms over Teksavvy and how they are dealing with this. After today, we see they are going about this the right way, and that is make it difficult, time consuming and expensive that Voltage will move on. I like how they are doing this, better then a knee jerk reaction that most people wanted.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:54:30 EDT
AkFubar posted : LOL judge wanted to know how Voltage plans to deal with 1000 litigants in front of his court.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:51:53 EDT
El Quintron posted :
said by dillyhammer:
I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

Mike

The death of a lawsuit by a thousand cuts? :p
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:50:36 EDT
dillyhammer posted :
said by MaynardKrebs:
Given that TSI had 4 passes through their data, had about 50% uncorrelated ip's, and a number misidentified, that should be enough to call into question the accuracy of all their data at any trial.

It wouldn't matter even if they retained logs for 100 years - errors and missing/uncorrelated data of that magnitude call into question ANY information TSI provides anyone, and more importantly it calls into question the entirety of the data provided by Canipre/Voltage as to which IP's allegedly infringed.

Agreed.

I was also somewhat encouraged by TSI's posture today. Not a lot, but some anyway.

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:49:54 EDT
neko posted : Beat me to it :)

Re: [Twitter] Ressy | PAnderson| MGeist | SVILaw

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:48:30 EDT
anon posted : >TSI offers to send notice on behalf of #Voltage asking them to stop. Voltage will as long as their is no costs. TSI agrees.

So Voltage wants the sharers to stop sharing the alleged file but to also preserve the evidence?

How do you square that circle?

At any rate another skirmish lost by the Trolls.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:48:02 EDT
neko posted : @pandersen tweeted:

"Judge: It is not clear what an ISP (IP) number correlates to the individual involved in the activity #voltage"

Nice of the judge to pick up on that, as it alludes to proving someone is directly responsible. Perhaps later the court may ask the question, "Is an IP address an individual"
--
...virtue gives you heraldry.

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:46:28 EDT
AkFubar posted : The judge is suspicious as to how IP = persons accused

Re: What time is the hearing for Jan14th?

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:45:51 EDT
MaynardKrebs posted : Given that TSI had 4 passes through their data, had about 50% uncorrelated ip's, and a number misidentified, that should be enough to call into question the accuracy of all their data at any trial.

It wouldn't matter even if they retained logs for 100 years - errors and missing/uncorrelated data of that magnitude call into question ANY information TSI provides anyone.

And more importantly it calls into question the entirety of the data provided by Canipre/Voltage as to which IP's allegedly infringed. If between Canipre's garbage input data errors and TSI garbage output there is a 50% error rate that's observed, what probability is there that the remaining 50% isn't riddled with errors too.

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say, we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don’t know we don’t know. -- Donald Rumsfeld