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Joey1973

@verizon.net
reply to hm

Re: Not enough electricity demand? Increase prices!

MAJOR NORTH AMERICAN CITIES (with rates higher than ours)



hm

@videotron.ca

Click for full size
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said by Joey1973 :

MAJOR NORTH AMERICAN CITIES (with rates higher than ours)

Maybe you're right?

Here is a rate comparison from another power company, based on monthly residential bills and power consumption:

»www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/int···2011.pdf

I can't believe the rate differences. Anyone here in Cali using PG&E can confirm? Or Consolidated Edison in NY?

alkizmo, if people here (in Qc) got electric bills like what our next door neighbours in Ontario got, it would hit the fan.

But an average of 100$ more per month is the cash-grab wireless meters and TOU gave the people of Ontario because it's the Green and environmentally friendly thing to do, ay?

Telling you, more to fear from the wireless meter set to start v soon than a 5% rate increase which may not happen.

I wouldn't mind seeing the costs of all the New England states (Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut) and more of NY, which Hydro Quebec supplies. A quick look only shows Boston.

Did only a quick search for a better price comparison of monthly bills across N.A. but didn't find anything. I'll leave that for Joey1973.

I can now understand why I have seen some topics here in the forum about people stealing (or trying to steal) electricity. If my rates were gave me 600$ bills per month instead of a hundred-something I think I would steal it too!

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to guppy_fish

said by guppy_fish:

You always have the option of building your own power plant ( think solar grid-tie for example ) if you feel the prices being offered are unreasonable

you really cant compete with just over a nickel a kw/h though!

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to guppy_fish

said by guppy_fish:

You always have the option of building your own power plant ( think solar grid-tie for example ) if you feel the prices being offered are unreasonable


East Amwell man lives off the grid in solar-powered home
»www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013···the.html
quote:
It took DiPirro almost seven years to build his 2,700-square-foot home in the hills near Sourland Mountain in Hunterdon County, where he moved in 2011. Construction lagged while DiPirro sought the equipment to power his sustainable vision, he said, but he eventually found light fixtures, a water pump and a refrigerator that could be powered directly by the 16 solar panels in his backyard.

He purchased a LED television that he said uses 30 watts of power, far less than an LCD or plasma television.

“It’s rewarding to live like this, but it’s not extreme in the sense of being deprived of modern-day amenities,” DiPirro said. “Anytime people build or remodel, I think they should do this.”

DiPirro said he worked sustainable design into every aspect of the home, from its east-west orientation to its thick insulation and high windows.

Without a traditional heating and cooling system, most of the heat in DiPirro’s home comes through those windows and up from the floor, a swath of black tile over lightweight concrete that absorbs the sun during the day.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to telco_mtl

said by telco_mtl:

you really cant compete with just over a nickel a kw/h though!

I think you mean .0525 per kw/h now. Totally changes the picture.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to alkizmo

said by alkizmo:

We have excess power instead of excess demand. We pay more per kW instead of them reducing the price of kW to get us to consume some more.

Well the second sentence isn't true. Rates did drop, as stated up above. And a lot of that excess power have been paid for not once, but twice (unused contracted power from the states and Ontario).

What is interesting, however, is Hydro-Quebec and the Gov of Vermont have kick-started R&D last year on how to use and bring Hydro-Quebec power to every home as a fueling station for the new all electric cars they are also R&D'ing and should be out within the next 5-7 years.

Demand will then peak again. The more it peaks for export, the better off we are in terms of monthly bills (here in QC).

Don't know what happens when someone from QC or Vermont travels in their all electric car to a place supplied by PG&E LOL better to sell the car and go gas in that part of N.A. with those insane prices.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to cdru

we are terrible wasters of electricity in quebec, just with our lighting if you look at the Halo of light comming off montreal on satellite photos you get an idea of how unfocused out lighting is. The transport ministry has been removing lamp standards on highways like crazy of late to put in more high mast lighting, not only do they light the highway but all the neighborhoods around.

I look in the states at some of the conservation things put in place and im impressed. In cleveland at jacobs field the minute the last out is called on come the sodium lights and off go the halide lights in the ballpark, little things like that go a long way.


Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to hm

said by hm :

Demand will then peak again. The more it peaks for export, the better off we are in terms of monthly bills (here in QC).

What happens when Hydro-Quebec starts diverting electricity to Vermont because they're willing to pay more than you are?

Be careful what you wish for...


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to hm

said by hm :

I can't believe the rate differences. Anyone here in Cali using PG&E can confirm?

I think I can answer my own question:
»Our PG&E Bill averages $600-$800 per month, sometimes more...

AMAZING!!

Another thing I never understood in this forum is the people who will go out and spend 30 or 40$ on a stupid LED light bulb. I always said to myself these people have more money than brains.

But when someone gets a monthly 600 to 800$ electric bill, WOW! F'N WOW! what costs us 140$ costs them 600$! I can understand now why they want to spend 40$ to save a lousy few watts that would cost us a whole quarter (25 cents) here. No wonder people here don't buy them. Makes no sense.

Don't think you are going to find much sympathy in this American forum for the 5% increase you may or may not get alkizmo (other than from me) heh


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to telco_mtl

said by telco_mtl:

we are terrible wasters of electricity in quebec,

Yes, we are. But it's also a use it or pay more for it situation as stated by the OP. It's there and not going anywhere anytime soon. It's also why LEDS barely exist as a market and why T-12's are in full stock everywhere. Ever look at the cost versus money saved for something like T-5 lights or LED's?

For someone on PG&E's grid, yeah sure, it will likely save you money. In Quebec you won't see a dime of that money back for a long, long time. Just not worth it. So not much "green washing" goes on here, unless there is a income tax incentive like the last time, or if Hydro Quebec wants to pay 50% of your "green" light bulbs (if they still do that).

No different than with water. I never heard of water meters or sewer meters till I left Quebec. But from what I read, that is coming soon to the Montreal area (starts this year I think) to raise tax revenue for the city. Pretty sure it will sprawl out to the rest of Quebec in a few years. Quebec also has the greatest amount of backyard pools I think in all of N.A. and our pool season is only like 3 months.

Yup, Quebeckers have a name as being resource wasters. But we have it and it's a use or lose situation. However, my city now charges me 75$ more per year for my 200,000 litre (or is it 200K-gal? I forget) pool on my taxes. 0.000375-cents per litre. Damn thieves. But top-ups are free. I would hate to think what it would cost with a water meter.

Electric wise, the pool pump costs me around 300 or so per season leaving the pump run ~12-hrs a day i believe (opening and closing I let it run 24-hrs for about a week).

In PG&E land, that would be 1500$ (or 500$ EXTRA per month on your 600-800$ bill). Insane.

So in Quebec it's affordable. So there are reasons why we are the great wasters of N.A.

Use it or lose it.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

Our electric rates are about 3 times Hydro-Quebec's rates.



stevek1949
We're not in Kansas anymore
Premium
join:2002-11-13
Virginia Beach, VA
reply to alkizmo

It happens to every government entity. The Feds are mandating higher fuel economy for new cars, but states are complaining that the hybrid cars are not using enough gas to get the gas tax for roads. They now want to institute a per mile tax instead of a per gallon tax.

You can't win.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to alkizmo

While I love the debate of this thread, I just want to make it clear that I am not unsatisfied with the price of electricity here in QC. I was merely pointing out a funny outcome that seems reversed with the rest of the world.


telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to hm

said by hm :

said by telco_mtl:

we are terrible wasters of electricity in quebec,

Yes, we are. But it's also a use it or pay more for it situation as stated by the OP. It's there and not going anywhere anytime soon. It's also why LEDS barely exist as a market and why T-12's are in full stock everywhere. Ever look at the cost versus money saved for something like T-5 lights or LED's?

For someone on PG&E's grid, yeah sure, it will likely save you money. In Quebec you won't see a dime of that money back for a long, long time. Just not worth it. So not much "green washing" goes on here, unless there is a income tax incentive like the last time, or if Hydro Quebec wants to pay 50% of your "green" light bulbs (if they still do that).

No different than with water. I never heard of water meters or sewer meters till I left Quebec. But from what I read, that is coming soon to the Montreal area (starts this year I think) to raise tax revenue for the city. Pretty sure it will sprawl out to the rest of Quebec in a few years. Quebec also has the greatest amount of backyard pools I think in all of N.A. and our pool season is only like 3 months.

Yup, Quebeckers have a name as being resource wasters. But we have it and it's a use or lose situation. However, my city now charges me 75$ more per year for my 200,000 litre (or is it 200K-gal? I forget) pool on my taxes. 0.000375-cents per litre. Damn thieves. But top-ups are free. I would hate to think what it would cost with a water meter.

Electric wise, the pool pump costs me around 300 or so per season leaving the pump run ~12-hrs a day i believe (opening and closing I let it run 24-hrs for about a week).

In PG&E land, that would be 1500$ (or 500$ EXTRA per month on your 600-800$ bill). Insane.

So in Quebec it's affordable. So there are reasons why we are the great wasters of N.A.

Use it or lose it.

i understand the use it or lose it thing, and thats why i get a giggle out of people with solar panels on their roofs or wind generators outside, to pay for these installations it will take you YEARS to pay it off. From an ecological standpoint, our clean sourced power it doesnt make sense to use CFLs with the toxic soup in them either but super hydro still encourages us to use them.

you mention water, some areas on the island of montreal do have meters, but they are rare, in the town im in we have no meters but in the summer major water restrictions, since our water is sourced from deep wells in a swamp. they serve about 100 000 people. in winter they have issues with lack of use, if they dont have a good flow through the wells contamination can happen.


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to alkizmo

said by alkizmo:

I was merely pointing out a funny outcome that seems reversed with the rest of the world.

Actually it makes sense. HQ a gov monopoly with the shareholder being the gov and the people of Quebec.

Gov money and your pension plan and benefits = Major part of Hydro Quebec.

If they lose money, guess what...

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
reply to telco_mtl

Just because you don't have a water meter doesn't mean it's free. You pay for the water through your taxes.


telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

oh i know its not free, luckily our source of fresh water is fairly economical, the deep wells they use the only treatment is chlorination in summer and floridation year round. My water tax annually is only 25$ so im not complaining



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Bob4

said by Bob4:

Just because you don't have a water meter doesn't mean it's free. You pay for the water through your taxes.

Indeed we do. It's included in your yearly city tax.

But that family of 6 pays the same as that woman on her old age pension living in a house all alone with no pool (pool owner pay 75$ more per year).

One thing Quebeckers have that you guys don't have is a very fat and healthy tax man. Fatter than yours. We are one of the most heavily taxed places in N.A. (or the second most). So really... it all balances out (maybe).


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Bob4

said by Bob4:

Our electric rates are about 3 times Hydro-Quebec's rates.

But our income tax and tax rates are 10x yours. Quebec is one of the heaviest taxed there is. So really when you come down to it, we're all soaked the same one way or another.

We may not have water meters and Time of Use electricity, but you would bust a vein in your neck paying our taxes.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to hm

said by hm :

One thing Quebeckers have that you guys don't have is a very fat and healthy tax man.

Our 15% sales tax should make most americans run home

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by alkizmo:

said by hm :

One thing Quebeckers have that you guys don't have is a very fat and healthy tax man.

Our 15% sales tax should make most americans run home

no its a 15% service fee for a reciept, if you dont need a receipt most places wont charge that fee lol


laff

@videotron.ca
reply to alkizmo

said by alkizmo:

Our 15% sales tax should make most americans run home

Filling their car tank would make most Americans heave...and heave again after they paid the tax on that chocolate bar they buy at the gas station.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to alkizmo

said by alkizmo:

Our 15% sales tax should make most americans run home

We used to get the sales tax refunded, but they don't do that anymore.

We buy gas in Plattsburg on the way up, and again in Plattsburg on the way back. We don't have to buy gas in Quebec.

What does Quebec do with all that gas tax money? They obviously don't spend it on repairing the roads!

There is no tax on clothes or shoes in NJ. Yea!

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus

said by Bob4:

We buy gas in Plattsburg on the way up, and again in Plattsburg on the way back. We don't have to buy gas in Quebec.

If making the Detroit - Niagara Falls run the place to buy gas in New York is at Smokin' Joes on the Tuscarora Reservation in Sanborn, NY, about 20 minutes north of Buffalo. No taxes on the gas so the price is better than just about anywhere else nearby and most cars can go from there to/from Michigan without needing to stop in Canada.

telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06
reply to Bob4

said by Bob4:

said by alkizmo:

Our 15% sales tax should make most americans run home

We used to get the sales tax refunded, but they don't do that anymore.

We buy gas in Plattsburg on the way up, and again in Plattsburg on the way back. We don't have to buy gas in Quebec.

What does Quebec do with all that gas tax money? They obviously don't spend it on repairing the roads!

There is no tax on clothes or shoes in NJ. Yea!

and the most maddening, the gas you buy in plattsburgh is for the most part brewed at the suncor refinery in montreal!

myself even when going to plattsburgh i make the detour across to alburg to get cheap gas, its often a LOT cheaper over there, there is a reason there are 2 gas stations as you come off the bridge on the vermont side
Expand your moderator at work


StepR
Code Warrior
Premium
join:2000-11-06
Elgin, IL
reply to alkizmo

Re: Not enough electricity demand? Increase prices!

How is the tax on that great Quebec mircobrew?


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to alkizmo

said by alkizmo:

We have excess power instead of excess demand. We pay more per kW instead of them reducing the price of kW to get us to consume some more.

What HQ has is lower demand from the US right now due to lower levels of economic activity, coupled with a warmer than average winter happening thus far.

Just imagine how bad Quebecer's electricity bills would be if they weren't screwing Newfoundland with the sweetheart deal they have. In 2009, Hydro-Québec had profits of about $1.7 billion from the Churchill Falls power alone, while Newfoundland and Labrador received $63 million for that generated power at 'wholesale' prices.*

*http://www2.canada.com/newfoundland+challenges+churchill+falls+hydro+deal+with+quebec/2286897/story.html?id=2286897

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to LazMan

said by LazMan:

Problem with Hydro generation is it's tough to ramp up and down quickly with demand...

Hydro is actually almost an 'on-demand' generation. It only takes a few tens of minutes to start/stop a turbine. If you don't generate then either the upstream reservoir fills a bit more, or more water bypasses the penstocks - depending on water levels upstream.

Nuc's take a week or so to come on-line, coal several days, natural gas about a day, all from cold start.

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to Bob4

said by Bob4:

What does Quebec do with all that gas tax money? They obviously don't spend it on repairing the roads!

Road construction kickbacks.