 Smokey Bearveritas odium paritPremium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4 | reply to Steve
Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments said by Steve:
You seriously don't understand this issue and are latching onto an emotional and foolish argument.
The fact that somebody has to go into the BIOS in order to turn off Secure Boot is not some kind of rocket science requirement, especially since on many systems they'll have to go into the BIOS anyway to set the boot order for the CD, and it's the kind of thing you take care of with a knowledge base article.
Again: you are talking BS, please don't try to characterize me as being emotional and foolish. You are invited to read e.g. the Official Acronis Support Forums and see the light. Please notice that even Acronis haven't an satisfying answer/solution on EUFI-related problems. Finally, don't forget to read posts regarding specific PC-manufacturers, BIOS and EUFI and there's no solution, especially not in the way you are suggesting. You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work.
It's obvious you are supporting the vendor no matter they are right or wrong, I prefer to support the consumer, even more in cases where the vendor don't know how to provide support in a reliable, adequate and knowledgeable way.
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 SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | said by Smokey Bear: You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work. So you're blaming Acronis for not being "Windows 8 compatible" when the underlying hardware isn't either?
Really? |
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OZOPremium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2 | reply to Smokey Bear
Again, "Secure Boot" is a DRM. And, as it always happens with DRM, customer suffers. Why? Because DRM is essentially a vendor's protection from unwanted customer's actions. Nothing less and nothing more. The rest is just a marketing BS around it.
In this case the vendor is m$. Unwanted customer's action is booting any other OS, except Windows OS.
Today (and so far) they can't take complete control over user's PC and prohibit to use other OS's or they'd face many sue cases. But they want to create additional difficulties for user to do so. That's why they specify that "Secure Boot" should be optional (again, at this time so far). But, at the same time, they require the option to be set "on" by default... My guess is, if it's become a new normal, the next step would be - they require to remove the option from the BIOS and allow to boot Windows OS without any exceptions. But that will only work in their wild dreams, I hope...
Returning back to Acronis:
1. By "Secure Boot" design - there is no way to boot any other OS except Windows 8. And Acronis True Image is that "unauthorized" OS. You have to turn off that feature (if you can) in order to use it.
2. The only thing, that I can blame Acronis for, is - they did not warn every their customer to turn off "Secure Boot" as a first necessary step of using True Image.
3. If users discover that they can't turn "Secure Boot" in their PC, they should return that PC back to manufacturers as a "lemon" (you can't restore your data in case of any hardware failure).
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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salahx
join:2001-12-03
Saint Louis, MO | reply to Smokey Bear
This shouldn't even really be an issue though, Linux distributions already have a solution for this. |
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 ashrc4Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia | reply to Smokey Bear
said by Smokey Bear: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments
Can you work on the title please .... Seems misleading.
Like "Windows 8 Secure Boot proving problems for Acronis"
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Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT! |
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Smokey Bearveritas odium paritPremium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4 | said by ashrc4:
said by Smokey Bear:
Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments
Can you work on the title please .... Seems misleading.
Like "Windows 8 Secure Boot proving problems for Acronis"
Done, topic is focusing on Acronis True Image in particular, therefore title changed as requested.
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»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron. |
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 LagzPremium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to salahx
Apparently not. 
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When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football. |
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 Woody79_00I run Linux am I still a PC?Premium
join:2004-07-08
united state | reply to Steve
I agree with Steve, this isn't Acronis fault. Acronis has "zero control" over functions added to motherboards by OEM or other motherboard manufacturers. SecureBoot being one of those features.
The software itself works just fine, if the OEM or motherboard vendor ships the board with SecureBoot on, then it is up to the user to disable it.
I know i speak for many here when I say: "I sure don't want any software messing around with any of my BIOS settings"....that would just be a recipe for not only a firestorm, but a technical support nightmare Acronis.... |
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LagzPremium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| This might be a gold mine for PC repair. Average Joe jumps into the BIOS and screws up something, then heads to the repair shop or tosses it as trash. This might become a nightmare for manufacturers as well, as average Joe now has to get inside his BIOS and tinker.
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When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football. |
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 BlackbirdBuilt for SpeedPremium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
·Frontier Communi..
| reply to Smokey Bear
Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image Is there any imaging software product that doesn't currently face this Win8/SecureBoot barrier that requires BIOS intervention to resolve... especially in case of a drive/hardware failure?
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville |
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OZOPremium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2 | "Secure Boot" allows to boot only Windows 8 and only from the HD.
Users have to go to BIOS in order to remove the restriction.
I don't know why the title of the tread had to be changed. It's not Acronis-specific problem.
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Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to Woody79_00
Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments said by Woody79_00:I agree with Steve, this isn't Acronis fault. Acronis has "zero control" over functions added to motherboards by OEM or other motherboard manufacturers. SecureBoot being one of those features.
The software itself works just fine, if the OEM or motherboard vendor ships the board with SecureBoot on, then it is up to the user to disable it.
Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.
Let's make one other thing clear here. Why did Microsoft do this? They did it to further solidify their monopoly. And they were able to get away with this arrogant move only because the USA is full of corrupt persons in power, with the general populace deluded, chronically depressed and increasingly interested mostly in circus theatrics. If this mess can be resolved, it falls to the shoulders of EU to do so. Sad day for us USA citizens.
I want to be able to boot Linux along with Windows 8. I have been told by Dell (with supervisors also stating this) that I canNOT turn off Secure Boot permanently or what happened last week (because I had it turned off) will happen again, the computer may be unsalvageable the next time it happens, and Dell has stated turning off Secure Boot permanently violates the hardware warranty. (I doubt there could be any legal enforcement of the latter but Dell could make the user's life hell and Dell has shown many times that they are not afraid of state attorney generals suing them, etc. so most users will never turn off Secure Boot and will not be able to dual boot Linux which is exactly what Microsoft which created this mess wants)! Dell has also told me that no user is to enter BIOS and certainly not to make changes there, even temporary ones, except under the express directions of a hardware support tech.
Dell is starting to tell users who had the foresight to buy a Windows 8 machine with the Pro version to downgrade immediately to Windows 7 if they wish to dual boot Linux and/or they wish to tinker with BIOS, etc. They are also telling users to reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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SteveI know your IP addressConsultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
kudos:5 | said by Mele20:I want to be able to boot Linux along with Windows 8. I have been told by Dell (with supervisors also stating this) that I canNOT turn off Secure Boot permanently or what happened last week (because I had it turned off) will happen again, the computer may be unsalvageable the next time it happens, and Dell has stated turning off Secure Boot permanently violates the hardware warranty. I call bullshit. Maybe they told you this, but it's not true. Microsoft requires that for x86 machines, the user must be able to turn off Secure Boot.
Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Security Consultant | Orange County, California USA | my web site |
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 NOYBSt. John 3.16Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1 | reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.
This is not completely accurate.
Only have to ship with SecureBoot on in order to have Microsoft Windows 8 blessing & sticker.
But not doing so would likely be impractical. Probably wouldn't get much if any support or volume license pricing from Microsoft. Putting them in impossible position to compete.
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NOYBSt. John 3.16Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1 | reply to Steve
My backup is my previous computer and xcopy and/or robocopy script to keep it in sync with my new computer. Always keep a working backup.
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LagzPremium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to NOYB
said by NOYB:
said by Mele20:Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.
This is not completely accurate. Only have to ship with SecureBoot on in order to have Microsoft Windows 8 blessing & sticker. But not doing so would likely be impractical. Probably wouldn't get much if any support or volume license pricing from Microsoft. Putting them in impossible position to compete. You just made Mele20's argument. This is exactly why Microsoft is responsible. Companies like Dell are out for profit else they won't be in business. Getting certified and the sticker means they make a profit.
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When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football. |
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NOYBSt. John 3.16Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1 | reply to Jan Janowski
Windows 8 is fine. You don't have to use SecureBoot if you don't want too. Just make sure it can easily be turned off in the BIOS.
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to Steve
Yes, the user can turn it off TEMPORARILY under the direction of a Dell tech. Of course, Dell cannot control the user who turns it off temporarily on their own. But most will not do that...they will be scared to do it. Plus, it was made very clear to me that I cannot turn it off permanently even though Dell told Ed Bott in late 20011 that this would be possible on all Dells with Windows 8. You are rather naive if you think it matters greatly what Microsoft told the OEMs. The OEMs can make life hell for the customer if they don't do what the OEM says.
Dell is saying, if I want to turn of Secureboot permanently, to either reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode or downgrade and, unlike how I was first treated when I asked for Reinstallation DVDs for both Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro (and was willing to pay a reasonable fee for shipping) and got a "huh" response, Dell is now sending out reinstallation and downgrade disks (to those with Win 8 Pro) or USB sticks. (I did get the USB sticks for both Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro (sent by FedX overnight free of charge) and supervisors credited me later with being the Sm/Med business customer who got Dell's policy on this clarified so that support techs, customer service reps, etc were all clear about it and on the same page but I still see confusion about downgrade rights and how Dell handles that in the Dell forums but the confusion is mostly surrounding Home Division customers).
I actually like some things about Win 8 and with Start8 installed, I would like to continue to use Win 8 Pro but I want to do so with secure boot permanently OFF and I have been told both by techs (who are highly trained just for the XPS 8500 and Alienware machines) and their supervisors that this is NOT possible at least with these higher end machines. The only way would be to reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode or downgrade to Win 7 Pro.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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NOYBSt. John 3.16Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1 | reply to Lagz
said by Lagz:You just made Mele20's argument. This is exactly why Microsoft is responsible. Companies like Dell are out for profit else they won't be in business. Getting certified and the sticker means they make a profit.
That's fine. I was simply clarifying the requirement / "ORDER".
The way I see it there are two possibilities to squash SecureBoot.
1) The major PC vendors all collectively refuse MS Win8 blessing & sticker (certification). Thus they are all on the same level playing field in that regard.
2) Consumers boycott anything with Windows 8 certification sticker.
I see nether of those happening in any significance.
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Say Thanks with a Tool Points Donation |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to NOYB
said by NOYB:
Windows 8 is fine. You don't have to use SecureBoot if you don't want too. Just make sure it can easily be turned off in the BIOS.
That is simply not true at least for the Dell XPS 8500 and Alienware machines. It may also be that it is not possible to turn it off permanently on just some of these machines based on the hardware for these machines as the user configured at point of sale if buying on the vendor's website. Look at the absolute mess that Dell has currently with EVERY XPS 8500 THAT SHIPS with a 32GB SSD cache drive installed. These machines refuse to boot to Windows 8 on the second boot. Dell says it is a Microsoft/Intel problem which it is but even though Microsoft issued a fix in October Dell is not including the fix in their factory image of Windows 8 for these machines. The new owner can't get the Microsoft fix because their machine won't boot after the first boot (or return from the first time it sleeps but instead turns itself off and then cannot be rebooted beyond Dell logo) and Dell has not even included a paper alert with the machine telling the user to get the fix immediately upon first boot.
That situation is not directly related to secureboot but I mentioned it to illustrate that making a blanket statement that one can turn off secureboot permanently if one wants is not necessarily true. Each OEM has implemented UEFI bios differently and it is a potential nightmare out there for customers.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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