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Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4

2 recommendations

reply to Steve

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

said by Steve:
You seriously don't understand this issue and are latching onto an emotional and foolish argument.

The fact that somebody has to go into the BIOS in order to turn off Secure Boot is not some kind of rocket science requirement, especially since on many systems they'll have to go into the BIOS anyway to set the boot order for the CD, and it's the kind of thing you take care of with a knowledge base article.

Again: you are talking BS, please don't try to characterize me as being emotional and foolish. You are invited to read e.g. the Official Acronis Support Forums and see the light. Please notice that even Acronis haven't an satisfying answer/solution on EUFI-related problems. Finally, don't forget to read posts regarding specific PC-manufacturers, BIOS and EUFI and there's no solution, especially not in the way you are suggesting. You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work.

It's obvious you are supporting the vendor no matter they are right or wrong, I prefer to support the consumer, even more in cases where the vendor don't know how to provide support in a reliable, adequate and knowledgeable way.
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

said by Smokey Bear:

You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work.

So you're blaming Acronis for not being "Windows 8 compatible" when the underlying hardware isn't either?

Really?

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to Smokey Bear

Again, "Secure Boot" is a DRM. And, as it always happens with DRM, customer suffers. Why? Because DRM is essentially a vendor's protection from unwanted customer's actions. Nothing less and nothing more. The rest is just a marketing BS around it.

In this case the vendor is m$. Unwanted customer's action is booting any other OS, except Windows OS.

Today (and so far) they can't take complete control over user's PC and prohibit to use other OS's or they'd face many sue cases. But they want to create additional difficulties for user to do so. That's why they specify that "Secure Boot" should be optional (again, at this time so far). But, at the same time, they require the option to be set "on" by default... My guess is, if it's become a new normal, the next step would be - they require to remove the option from the BIOS and allow to boot Windows OS without any exceptions. But that will only work in their wild dreams, I hope...

Returning back to Acronis:
1. By "Secure Boot" design - there is no way to boot any other OS except Windows 8. And Acronis True Image is that "unauthorized" OS. You have to turn off that feature (if you can) in order to use it.
2. The only thing, that I can blame Acronis for, is - they did not warn every their customer to turn off "Secure Boot" as a first necessary step of using True Image.
3. If users discover that they can't turn "Secure Boot" in their PC, they should return that PC back to manufacturers as a "lemon" (you can't restore your data in case of any hardware failure).
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


salahx

join:2001-12-03
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Smokey Bear

This shouldn't even really be an issue though, Linux distributions already have a solution for this.



ashrc4
Premium
join:2009-02-06
australia
reply to Smokey Bear

said by Smokey Bear:

Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Can you work on the title please .... Seems misleading.
Like "Windows 8 Secure Boot proving problems for Acronis"
--
Paradigm Shift beta test pilot. "Dying to defend one's small piece of suburb...Give me something global...STAT!


Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4

said by ashrc4:
said by Smokey Bear:
Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Can you work on the title please .... Seems misleading.
Like "Windows 8 Secure Boot proving problems for Acronis"

Done, topic is focusing on Acronis True Image in particular, therefore title changed as requested.
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


Lagz
Premium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock
reply to salahx

said by salahx:

This shouldn't even really be an issue though, Linux distributions already have a solution for this.

Apparently not.
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.


Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium
join:2004-07-08
united state
reply to Steve

I agree with Steve, this isn't Acronis fault. Acronis has "zero control" over functions added to motherboards by OEM or other motherboard manufacturers. SecureBoot being one of those features.

The software itself works just fine, if the OEM or motherboard vendor ships the board with SecureBoot on, then it is up to the user to disable it.

I know i speak for many here when I say: "I sure don't want any software messing around with any of my BIOS settings"....that would just be a recipe for not only a firestorm, but a technical support nightmare Acronis....



Lagz
Premium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock

This might be a gold mine for PC repair. Average Joe jumps into the BIOS and screws up something, then heads to the repair shop or tosses it as trash. This might become a nightmare for manufacturers as well, as average Joe now has to get inside his BIOS and tinker.
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.



Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

1 recommendation

reply to Smokey Bear

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Is there any imaging software product that doesn't currently face this Win8/SecureBoot barrier that requires BIOS intervention to resolve... especially in case of a drive/hardware failure?
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

"Secure Boot" allows to boot only Windows 8 and only from the HD.
Users have to go to BIOS in order to remove the restriction.

I don't know why the title of the tread had to be changed. It's not Acronis-specific problem.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Woody79_00

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

said by Woody79_00:

I agree with Steve, this isn't Acronis fault. Acronis has "zero control" over functions added to motherboards by OEM or other motherboard manufacturers. SecureBoot being one of those features.

The software itself works just fine, if the OEM or motherboard vendor ships the board with SecureBoot on, then it is up to the user to disable it.

Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.

Let's make one other thing clear here. Why did Microsoft do this? They did it to further solidify their monopoly. And they were able to get away with this arrogant move only because the USA is full of corrupt persons in power, with the general populace deluded, chronically depressed and increasingly interested mostly in circus theatrics. If this mess can be resolved, it falls to the shoulders of EU to do so. Sad day for us USA citizens.

I want to be able to boot Linux along with Windows 8. I have been told by Dell (with supervisors also stating this) that I canNOT turn off Secure Boot permanently or what happened last week (because I had it turned off) will happen again, the computer may be unsalvageable the next time it happens, and Dell has stated turning off Secure Boot permanently violates the hardware warranty. (I doubt there could be any legal enforcement of the latter but Dell could make the user's life hell and Dell has shown many times that they are not afraid of state attorney generals suing them, etc. so most users will never turn off Secure Boot and will not be able to dual boot Linux which is exactly what Microsoft which created this mess wants)! Dell has also told me that no user is to enter BIOS and certainly not to make changes there, even temporary ones, except under the express directions of a hardware support tech.

Dell is starting to tell users who had the foresight to buy a Windows 8 machine with the Pro version to downgrade immediately to Windows 7 if they wish to dual boot Linux and/or they wish to tinker with BIOS, etc. They are also telling users to reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5

said by Mele20:

I want to be able to boot Linux along with Windows 8. I have been told by Dell (with supervisors also stating this) that I canNOT turn off Secure Boot permanently or what happened last week (because I had it turned off) will happen again, the computer may be unsalvageable the next time it happens, and Dell has stated turning off Secure Boot permanently violates the hardware warranty.

I call bullshit. Maybe they told you this, but it's not true. Microsoft requires that for x86 machines, the user must be able to turn off Secure Boot.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Security Consultant | Orange County, California USA | my web site


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.


This is not completely accurate.

Only have to ship with SecureBoot on in order to have Microsoft Windows 8 blessing & sticker.

But not doing so would likely be impractical. Probably wouldn't get much if any support or volume license pricing from Microsoft. Putting them in impossible position to compete.

--
Be a Good Netizen - Read, Know & Complain About Overly Restrictive Tyrannical ISP ToS & AUP »comcast.net/terms/ »verizon.net/policies/
Say Thanks with a Tool Points Donation


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
reply to Steve


My backup is my previous computer and xcopy and/or robocopy script to keep it in sync with my new computer. Always keep a working backup.



Lagz
Premium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock
reply to NOYB

said by NOYB:


said by Mele20:

Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.


This is not completely accurate.

Only have to ship with SecureBoot on in order to have Microsoft Windows 8 blessing & sticker.

But not doing so would likely be impractical. Probably wouldn't get much if any support or volume license pricing from Microsoft. Putting them in impossible position to compete.

You just made Mele20's argument. This is exactly why Microsoft is responsible. Companies like Dell are out for profit else they won't be in business. Getting certified and the sticker means they make a profit.
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
reply to Jan Janowski


Windows 8 is fine. You don't have to use SecureBoot if you don't want too. Just make sure it can easily be turned off in the BIOS.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Steve

Yes, the user can turn it off TEMPORARILY under the direction of a Dell tech. Of course, Dell cannot control the user who turns it off temporarily on their own. But most will not do that...they will be scared to do it. Plus, it was made very clear to me that I cannot turn it off permanently even though Dell told Ed Bott in late 20011 that this would be possible on all Dells with Windows 8. You are rather naive if you think it matters greatly what Microsoft told the OEMs. The OEMs can make life hell for the customer if they don't do what the OEM says.

Dell is saying, if I want to turn of Secureboot permanently, to either reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode or downgrade and, unlike how I was first treated when I asked for Reinstallation DVDs for both Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro (and was willing to pay a reasonable fee for shipping) and got a "huh" response, Dell is now sending out reinstallation and downgrade disks (to those with Win 8 Pro) or USB sticks. (I did get the USB sticks for both Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro (sent by FedX overnight free of charge) and supervisors credited me later with being the Sm/Med business customer who got Dell's policy on this clarified so that support techs, customer service reps, etc were all clear about it and on the same page but I still see confusion about downgrade rights and how Dell handles that in the Dell forums but the confusion is mostly surrounding Home Division customers).

I actually like some things about Win 8 and with Start8 installed, I would like to continue to use Win 8 Pro but I want to do so with secure boot permanently OFF and I have been told both by techs (who are highly trained just for the XPS 8500 and Alienware machines) and their supervisors that this is NOT possible at least with these higher end machines. The only way would be to reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode or downgrade to Win 7 Pro.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to Lagz

said by Lagz:

You just made Mele20's argument. This is exactly why Microsoft is responsible. Companies like Dell are out for profit else they won't be in business. Getting certified and the sticker means they make a profit.


That's fine. I was simply clarifying the requirement / "ORDER".

The way I see it there are two possibilities to squash SecureBoot.

1) The major PC vendors all collectively refuse MS Win8 blessing & sticker (certification). Thus they are all on the same level playing field in that regard.
2) Consumers boycott anything with Windows 8 certification sticker.

I see nether of those happening in any significance.

--
Be a Good Netizen - Read, Know & Complain About Overly Restrictive Tyrannical ISP ToS & AUP »comcast.net/terms/ »verizon.net/policies/
Say Thanks with a Tool Points Donation

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to NOYB

said by NOYB:


Windows 8 is fine. You don't have to use SecureBoot if you don't want too. Just make sure it can easily be turned off in the BIOS.

That is simply not true at least for the Dell XPS 8500 and Alienware machines. It may also be that it is not possible to turn it off permanently on just some of these machines based on the hardware for these machines as the user configured at point of sale if buying on the vendor's website. Look at the absolute mess that Dell has currently with EVERY XPS 8500 THAT SHIPS with a 32GB SSD cache drive installed. These machines refuse to boot to Windows 8 on the second boot. Dell says it is a Microsoft/Intel problem which it is but even though Microsoft issued a fix in October Dell is not including the fix in their factory image of Windows 8 for these machines. The new owner can't get the Microsoft fix because their machine won't boot after the first boot (or return from the first time it sleeps but instead turns itself off and then cannot be rebooted beyond Dell logo) and Dell has not even included a paper alert with the machine telling the user to get the fix immediately upon first boot.

That situation is not directly related to secureboot but I mentioned it to illustrate that making a blanket statement that one can turn off secureboot permanently if one wants is not necessarily true. Each OEM has implemented UEFI bios differently and it is a potential nightmare out there for customers.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1


That's why I ended by saying this:
"make sure it can easily be turned off in the BIOS"



Blackbird
Built for Speed
Premium
join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

1 recommendation

reply to Smokey Bear

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

This all reminds me greatly of the driver fiascos with Vista. Microsoft blamed vendors for being late to the party with Vista-compatible drivers, vendors blamed Microsoft for slowness in spec releases and approvals, OEMs blamed both of them for problems with Vista on their computers, and the poor user who had problems was left to flounder around and try to pick up the pieces however he could, including frequenting forums like these. It was one of the key reasons Vista was less than a blinding market success.

With things like the SecureBoot issue, Win 8 is lining up in the same vein... and unless both the OEMs (at least any that don't bless or permit BIOS tweaking, such as Dell) and Microsoft get their acts together and end up on exactly the same page about SecureBoot, they'll all end up losing out in eventual sales dollars. Word gets around, even if it's only partially correct. And if word gets out that many Win8 systems won't boot properly after a hard-drive or major software catastrophe, the damage will be done across the board, regardless of who's primary fault it is or even whose computer brand it is. And Win8 will be guaranteed a position right up there with Vista and Win98ME, deservedly or not in each case.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville


microcomp

join:2001-01-30
Santa Rosa, CA
reply to Smokey Bear

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

This is a problem I recently experienced when I tried to clean-up my Windows 8 install due to problems with several programs and then couldn't boot from my True Image 2013 Recovery CD to load my backup. I did find the secure boot setting in the BIOS and turned that off but that still didn't work. I then had to change the UEFI setting in the BIOS and sure enough I could finally boot from the CD. Unfortunately with the UEFI setting changed the system no longer recognized my external backup drives where my True Image backups were saved. So now what are we supposed to do to use True Image to make backups that can be accessed from a boot CD. The program for me has become useless as I guess any other backup program that uses a boot CD. Microsoft really didn't think this through when creating Windows 8 and how it was going to effect all these software programs. I now have no backup solution that runs from CD which is what you need when you drive fails and there is no software available on the hard drive. Any ideas of what will work for backups now?

Expand your moderator at work


nwrickert
sand groper
Premium,MVM
join:2004-09-04
Geneva, IL
kudos:7
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to Smokey Bear

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

I guess I never noticed this thread before today.

I purchased a box with Win 8, in February.

A few days later, I decided to take an initial Acronis backup, since the computer did not come with recovery disks.

I inserted the Acronis CD and booted, then hit F12 during boot to get a BIOS boot menu. The system booted straight into Windows.

I went to the BIOS, turned off secure boot. I again booted and hit F12. The Acronis CD was there among the choices. I booted it, and backed up the system to an external drive. Then I turned secure boot back on.

This does not seem a problem to me.

More recently, I installed opensuse 12.3. I was able to do that with the system entirely in secure boot mode. As far as I know, the same is possible with Fedora and Ubuntu. If Acronis wants to base its recovery environment on a distro with secure boot support, they could probably do that easily. Or, leave it as it is. I don't see a problem with turning off secure boot for backup/recovery purposes.
--
AT&T Uverse; Buffalo WHR-300HP router (behind the 2wire gateway); openSuSE 12.3; firefox 20.0



Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to Blackbird

said by Blackbird:

Is there any imaging software product that doesn't currently face this Win8/SecureBoot barrier that requires BIOS intervention to resolve... especially in case of a drive/hardware failure?

I wondered the same thing.

The entire feature is more or less designed to prevent booting non Windows 8 operating systems. An Acronis recovery disk fits the general definition of "not Windows 8", since it uses Linux.

Now Microsoft might counter with "No no. It's a security feature! Really!" But it doesn't really matter.

I agree though that the people we're talking about here that would be tripped up is probably pretty limited. The number of people knowledgeable enough to know how to image their system, but don't know how to make a fairly simple bios adjustment I would wager is a pretty small group. And a simple google search of the problem will in due course, turn up this workaround in seconds.

If I were Acronis, I'd be plastering this warning far and wide.

That said, the time to verify that your backup method is behaving as it should, is not "after my system crashes". You should make sure your recovery media is bootable before it needs to be.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


HA Nut
Premium
join:2004-05-13
USA

Yeah Ian, I wonder this too.

A month or 2 ago, I tried to boot a Clonezilla CD in the only Win 8 machine I've had the (dis?)pleasure to work with. It would not boot until SecureBoot and UEFI were disabled.

I understood what was wrong but as you note, many users would not.



Bluefish
Premium
join:2010-02-23

I just wanted to point out that this has been fixed by Acronis (well, at least in my case it was) for anyone that has a UEFI bios and wants to use Acronis. I have a Sony Vaio T Series Ultrabook and tried to create recovery disks using Vaio Care and no matter what I did I could not create all the disks. The create recovery disk utility in Vaio Care would not recognize most of the DVD's I tried to use to create the disks, even though outside of the utility these same disks were recognized fine by Windows 8 and I was able to write to them. Sony Chat support was telling me to do things I had already done to try to fix the problem, so I gave up on creating the recovery disks and made a system image with Acronis. After I was done creating the SI, I tried to boot to Acronis and could not because of Secure Boot. I googled and found a patch which I downloaded, installed and created a new bootable Acronis CD and then was able to boot from the Acronis disk I had created. »kb.acronis.com/content/38965.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

So Acronis finally signed their loader! That is good news.