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Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
reply to Smokey Bear

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

said by Smokey Bear:

shame on Acronis.

Huh? What would you propose they do? Please show your work.


Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4
said by Steve:
said by Smokey Bear:
shame on Acronis.
Huh? What would you propose they do? Please show your work.

I'm not the vendor, I don't advertise with "compatible with Windows 8", it's all up to Acronis. However you are a full-skilled consultant so can advise them in a professional way, I'm just a nobody.
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


Steve
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Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
said by Smokey Bear:

I'm not the vendor, I don't advertise with "compatible with Windows 8", it's all up to Acronis.

If you believe that "Windows 8" means "must have secure boot", you're confused.


Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4
said by Steve:
said by Smokey Bear:
I'm not the vendor, I don't advertise with "compatible with Windows 8", it's all up to Acronis.
If you believe that "Windows 8" means "must have secure boot", you're confused.

What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
said by Smokey Bear:

What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

One can be fully compatible with Windows 8 while still being at the mercy of hardware that won't boot a non-Microsoft OS, and it's just how it goes - this is a hardware issue and it's not the job of Acronis to provide an AOL-esque wizard that does what cannot be done.


Lagz
Premium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock
said by Steve:

said by Smokey Bear:

What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

One can be fully compatible with Windows 8 while still being at the mercy of hardware that won't boot a non-Microsoft OS, and it's just how it goes - this is a hardware issue and it's not the job of Acronis to provide an AOL-esque wizard that does what cannot be done.

Windows 8 DRM working as intended!
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

said by Lagz:

Windows 8 DRM working as intended!

Yes, indeed: As it was cited:
Secure Boot is a new anti-rootkit feature introduced with Windows 8, which is designed to prevent the PC from booting an unrecognised operating system.

Everything that's not Windows 8 is an "unrecognized" (or "unauthorized", if you want it this way) OS and, by design, should not be allowed to boot on that PC... Perhaps a good way to re-gain PC market from the perspective of the company that pushed that design on users...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4
reply to Steve
said by Steve:
said by Smokey Bear:
What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

One can be fully compatible with Windows 8 while still being at the mercy of hardware that won't boot a non-Microsoft OS, and it's just how it goes - this is a hardware issue and it's not the job of Acronis to provide an AOL-esque wizard that does what cannot be done.

The software is not fully functional, some of the features don't work 'out-of-the-box'. Again we see here lack of vendor information wich almost always (can) lead to misinterpretation and serious problems. True Image is not just 'standard' software, it is intended to get all data back with a complete PC-backup solution in case of disaster. FWIW this is also one of Acronis' sale argument, they are also talking about "an easy-to-use data backup and hard drive recovery software." Again, a knowledgable customer will know what to do in case of disaster on a Windows 8 PC (anyways let's hope he will know), how about a noob buying in confidence the software will not strike in case of emergency? He isn't interested in hardware issues as mentioned by you nor have the knowledge about hardware, all he need is a working PC, that's the sole reason he bought the software after reading: "New! This software is Windows 8 compatible".
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


vaxvms
ferroequine fan
Premium
join:2005-03-01
Wormtown
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Steve
said by Steve:

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

You can't blame Acronis for what's happening but you can fault them for not stating their product won't do some of the things it claims.
It doesn't do shazbot with Win 8. The product spec needs to say it doesn't do shazbot with Win 8 and shouldn't be touted as being "fully" compatible.
--
CMKRNL

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
How is it not compatible with Win 8? It is as long as you enter bios and temporarily disable Secure Boot. SUPPOSEDLY, you can disable secure boot permanently if you wish (at least Intel says you can) but although Dell told Ed Bott in 2011 that this would be possible on all Dell Win 8 computers that has turned out to be NOT true, but you can disable temporarily and then Acronis will work. (Of course, if it is a Dell you are required to call Dell to get permission to enter Bios...Dell is having so many problems with new BIOS that they actually are telling users that entering Bios and changing anything will void the warranty unless done so under Dell tech supervision) but I don't know if other OEMs are doing this or having the severe problems Dell is having with its implementation of UEFI and fast boot. So, Acronis TI is compatible in THIS REGARD. Entering bios on a Win 8 computer is not easy though as boot is screaming fast so you have to know exactly what to do (hit the computer start button with one hand and with the other, AT THE SAME TIME, begin tapping F2 if you wish to enter bios. Acronis should have those instructions on their site as it is different from earlier OSes where boot was much slower.

A perhaps more important consideration is that Acronis 2011 did not support EFI GPT drives - does 2013? I see nothing about it at Acronis site. What I see there would make me run as fast as possible in the opposite direction and not because of whether not it fully supports Win 8 and restoration of EFI GPT drives but because of all the garbage that is now included in what should be an imaging program only.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
reply to Smokey Bear
said by Smokey Bear:

The software is not fully functional, some of the features don't work 'out-of-the-box'. Again we see here lack of vendor information which almost always (can) lead to misinterpretation and serious problems. True Image is not just 'standard' software, it is intended to get all data back with a complete PC-backup solution in case of disaster. FWIW this is also one of Acronis' sale argument, they are also talking about "an easy-to-use data backup and hard drive recovery software." Again, a knowledgable customer will know what to do in case of disaster on a Windows 8 PC (anyways let's hope he will know), how about a noob buying in confidence the software will not strike in case of emergency? He isn't interested in hardware issues as mentioned by you nor have the knowledge about hardware, all he need is a working PC, that's the sole reason he bought the software after reading: "New! This software is Windows 8 compatible".

You seriously don't understand this issue and are latching onto an emotional and foolish argument.

The fact that somebody has to go into the BIOS in order to turn off Secure Boot is not some kind of rocket science requirement, especially since on many systems they'll have to go into the BIOS anyway to set the boot order for the CD, and it's the kind of thing you take care of with a knowledge base article.


Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
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Annie's Pub
kudos:4

2 recommendations

said by Steve:
You seriously don't understand this issue and are latching onto an emotional and foolish argument.

The fact that somebody has to go into the BIOS in order to turn off Secure Boot is not some kind of rocket science requirement, especially since on many systems they'll have to go into the BIOS anyway to set the boot order for the CD, and it's the kind of thing you take care of with a knowledge base article.

Again: you are talking BS, please don't try to characterize me as being emotional and foolish. You are invited to read e.g. the Official Acronis Support Forums and see the light. Please notice that even Acronis haven't an satisfying answer/solution on EUFI-related problems. Finally, don't forget to read posts regarding specific PC-manufacturers, BIOS and EUFI and there's no solution, especially not in the way you are suggesting. You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work.

It's obvious you are supporting the vendor no matter they are right or wrong, I prefer to support the consumer, even more in cases where the vendor don't know how to provide support in a reliable, adequate and knowledgeable way.
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
said by Smokey Bear:

You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work.

So you're blaming Acronis for not being "Windows 8 compatible" when the underlying hardware isn't either?

Really?

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to Smokey Bear
Again, "Secure Boot" is a DRM. And, as it always happens with DRM, customer suffers. Why? Because DRM is essentially a vendor's protection from unwanted customer's actions. Nothing less and nothing more. The rest is just a marketing BS around it.

In this case the vendor is m$. Unwanted customer's action is booting any other OS, except Windows OS.

Today (and so far) they can't take complete control over user's PC and prohibit to use other OS's or they'd face many sue cases. But they want to create additional difficulties for user to do so. That's why they specify that "Secure Boot" should be optional (again, at this time so far). But, at the same time, they require the option to be set "on" by default... My guess is, if it's become a new normal, the next step would be - they require to remove the option from the BIOS and allow to boot Windows OS without any exceptions. But that will only work in their wild dreams, I hope...

Returning back to Acronis:
1. By "Secure Boot" design - there is no way to boot any other OS except Windows 8. And Acronis True Image is that "unauthorized" OS. You have to turn off that feature (if you can) in order to use it.
2. The only thing, that I can blame Acronis for, is - they did not warn every their customer to turn off "Secure Boot" as a first necessary step of using True Image.
3. If users discover that they can't turn "Secure Boot" in their PC, they should return that PC back to manufacturers as a "lemon" (you can't restore your data in case of any hardware failure).
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium
join:2004-07-08
united state
reply to Steve
I agree with Steve, this isn't Acronis fault. Acronis has "zero control" over functions added to motherboards by OEM or other motherboard manufacturers. SecureBoot being one of those features.

The software itself works just fine, if the OEM or motherboard vendor ships the board with SecureBoot on, then it is up to the user to disable it.

I know i speak for many here when I say: "I sure don't want any software messing around with any of my BIOS settings"....that would just be a recipe for not only a firestorm, but a technical support nightmare Acronis....


Lagz
Premium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock
This might be a gold mine for PC repair. Average Joe jumps into the BIOS and screws up something, then heads to the repair shop or tosses it as trash. This might become a nightmare for manufacturers as well, as average Joe now has to get inside his BIOS and tinker.
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Woody79_00
said by Woody79_00:

I agree with Steve, this isn't Acronis fault. Acronis has "zero control" over functions added to motherboards by OEM or other motherboard manufacturers. SecureBoot being one of those features.

The software itself works just fine, if the OEM or motherboard vendor ships the board with SecureBoot on, then it is up to the user to disable it.

Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.

Let's make one other thing clear here. Why did Microsoft do this? They did it to further solidify their monopoly. And they were able to get away with this arrogant move only because the USA is full of corrupt persons in power, with the general populace deluded, chronically depressed and increasingly interested mostly in circus theatrics. If this mess can be resolved, it falls to the shoulders of EU to do so. Sad day for us USA citizens.

I want to be able to boot Linux along with Windows 8. I have been told by Dell (with supervisors also stating this) that I canNOT turn off Secure Boot permanently or what happened last week (because I had it turned off) will happen again, the computer may be unsalvageable the next time it happens, and Dell has stated turning off Secure Boot permanently violates the hardware warranty. (I doubt there could be any legal enforcement of the latter but Dell could make the user's life hell and Dell has shown many times that they are not afraid of state attorney generals suing them, etc. so most users will never turn off Secure Boot and will not be able to dual boot Linux which is exactly what Microsoft which created this mess wants)! Dell has also told me that no user is to enter BIOS and certainly not to make changes there, even temporary ones, except under the express directions of a hardware support tech.

Dell is starting to tell users who had the foresight to buy a Windows 8 machine with the Pro version to downgrade immediately to Windows 7 if they wish to dual boot Linux and/or they wish to tinker with BIOS, etc. They are also telling users to reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Steve
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join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
said by Mele20:

I want to be able to boot Linux along with Windows 8. I have been told by Dell (with supervisors also stating this) that I canNOT turn off Secure Boot permanently or what happened last week (because I had it turned off) will happen again, the computer may be unsalvageable the next time it happens, and Dell has stated turning off Secure Boot permanently violates the hardware warranty.

I call bullshit. Maybe they told you this, but it's not true. Microsoft requires that for x86 machines, the user must be able to turn off Secure Boot.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Security Consultant | Orange County, California USA | my web site


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
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Forest Grove, OR
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reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.


This is not completely accurate.

Only have to ship with SecureBoot on in order to have Microsoft Windows 8 blessing & sticker.

But not doing so would likely be impractical. Probably wouldn't get much if any support or volume license pricing from Microsoft. Putting them in impossible position to compete.

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Lagz
Premium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock
said by NOYB:


said by Mele20:

Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.


This is not completely accurate.

Only have to ship with SecureBoot on in order to have Microsoft Windows 8 blessing & sticker.

But not doing so would likely be impractical. Probably wouldn't get much if any support or volume license pricing from Microsoft. Putting them in impossible position to compete.

You just made Mele20's argument. This is exactly why Microsoft is responsible. Companies like Dell are out for profit else they won't be in business. Getting certified and the sticker means they make a profit.
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.

Mele20
Premium
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Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Steve
Yes, the user can turn it off TEMPORARILY under the direction of a Dell tech. Of course, Dell cannot control the user who turns it off temporarily on their own. But most will not do that...they will be scared to do it. Plus, it was made very clear to me that I cannot turn it off permanently even though Dell told Ed Bott in late 20011 that this would be possible on all Dells with Windows 8. You are rather naive if you think it matters greatly what Microsoft told the OEMs. The OEMs can make life hell for the customer if they don't do what the OEM says.

Dell is saying, if I want to turn of Secureboot permanently, to either reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode or downgrade and, unlike how I was first treated when I asked for Reinstallation DVDs for both Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro (and was willing to pay a reasonable fee for shipping) and got a "huh" response, Dell is now sending out reinstallation and downgrade disks (to those with Win 8 Pro) or USB sticks. (I did get the USB sticks for both Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro (sent by FedX overnight free of charge) and supervisors credited me later with being the Sm/Med business customer who got Dell's policy on this clarified so that support techs, customer service reps, etc were all clear about it and on the same page but I still see confusion about downgrade rights and how Dell handles that in the Dell forums but the confusion is mostly surrounding Home Division customers).

I actually like some things about Win 8 and with Start8 installed, I would like to continue to use Win 8 Pro but I want to do so with secure boot permanently OFF and I have been told both by techs (who are highly trained just for the XPS 8500 and Alienware machines) and their supervisors that this is NOT possible at least with these higher end machines. The only way would be to reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode or downgrade to Win 7 Pro.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
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1 recommendation

reply to Lagz
said by Lagz:

You just made Mele20's argument. This is exactly why Microsoft is responsible. Companies like Dell are out for profit else they won't be in business. Getting certified and the sticker means they make a profit.


That's fine. I was simply clarifying the requirement / "ORDER".

The way I see it there are two possibilities to squash SecureBoot.

1) The major PC vendors all collectively refuse MS Win8 blessing & sticker (certification). Thus they are all on the same level playing field in that regard.
2) Consumers boycott anything with Windows 8 certification sticker.

I see nether of those happening in any significance.

--
Be a Good Netizen - Read, Know & Complain About Overly Restrictive Tyrannical ISP ToS & AUP »comcast.net/terms/ »verizon.net/policies/
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microcomp

join:2001-01-30
Santa Rosa, CA
reply to Smokey Bear
This is a problem I recently experienced when I tried to clean-up my Windows 8 install due to problems with several programs and then couldn't boot from my True Image 2013 Recovery CD to load my backup. I did find the secure boot setting in the BIOS and turned that off but that still didn't work. I then had to change the UEFI setting in the BIOS and sure enough I could finally boot from the CD. Unfortunately with the UEFI setting changed the system no longer recognized my external backup drives where my True Image backups were saved. So now what are we supposed to do to use True Image to make backups that can be accessed from a boot CD. The program for me has become useless as I guess any other backup program that uses a boot CD. Microsoft really didn't think this through when creating Windows 8 and how it was going to effect all these software programs. I now have no backup solution that runs from CD which is what you need when you drive fails and there is no software available on the hard drive. Any ideas of what will work for backups now?