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Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4
reply to Steve

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

said by Steve:
said by Smokey Bear:
shame on Acronis.
Huh? What would you propose they do? Please show your work.

I'm not the vendor, I don't advertise with "compatible with Windows 8", it's all up to Acronis. However you are a full-skilled consultant so can advise them in a professional way, I'm just a nobody.
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
said by Smokey Bear:

I'm not the vendor, I don't advertise with "compatible with Windows 8", it's all up to Acronis.

If you believe that "Windows 8" means "must have secure boot", you're confused.


Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4
said by Steve:
said by Smokey Bear:
I'm not the vendor, I don't advertise with "compatible with Windows 8", it's all up to Acronis.
If you believe that "Windows 8" means "must have secure boot", you're confused.

What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
said by Smokey Bear:

What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

One can be fully compatible with Windows 8 while still being at the mercy of hardware that won't boot a non-Microsoft OS, and it's just how it goes - this is a hardware issue and it's not the job of Acronis to provide an AOL-esque wizard that does what cannot be done.


Lagz
Premium
join:2000-09-03
The Rock
said by Steve:

said by Smokey Bear:

What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

One can be fully compatible with Windows 8 while still being at the mercy of hardware that won't boot a non-Microsoft OS, and it's just how it goes - this is a hardware issue and it's not the job of Acronis to provide an AOL-esque wizard that does what cannot be done.

Windows 8 DRM working as intended!
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

said by Lagz:

Windows 8 DRM working as intended!

Yes, indeed: As it was cited:
Secure Boot is a new anti-rootkit feature introduced with Windows 8, which is designed to prevent the PC from booting an unrecognised operating system.

Everything that's not Windows 8 is an "unrecognized" (or "unauthorized", if you want it this way) OS and, by design, should not be allowed to boot on that PC... Perhaps a good way to re-gain PC market from the perspective of the company that pushed that design on users...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4
reply to Steve
said by Steve:
said by Smokey Bear:
What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

One can be fully compatible with Windows 8 while still being at the mercy of hardware that won't boot a non-Microsoft OS, and it's just how it goes - this is a hardware issue and it's not the job of Acronis to provide an AOL-esque wizard that does what cannot be done.

The software is not fully functional, some of the features don't work 'out-of-the-box'. Again we see here lack of vendor information wich almost always (can) lead to misinterpretation and serious problems. True Image is not just 'standard' software, it is intended to get all data back with a complete PC-backup solution in case of disaster. FWIW this is also one of Acronis' sale argument, they are also talking about "an easy-to-use data backup and hard drive recovery software." Again, a knowledgable customer will know what to do in case of disaster on a Windows 8 PC (anyways let's hope he will know), how about a noob buying in confidence the software will not strike in case of emergency? He isn't interested in hardware issues as mentioned by you nor have the knowledge about hardware, all he need is a working PC, that's the sole reason he bought the software after reading: "New! This software is Windows 8 compatible".
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


vaxvms
ferroequine fan
Premium
join:2005-03-01
Wormtown
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Steve
said by Steve:

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

You can't blame Acronis for what's happening but you can fault them for not stating their product won't do some of the things it claims.
It doesn't do shazbot with Win 8. The product spec needs to say it doesn't do shazbot with Win 8 and shouldn't be touted as being "fully" compatible.
--
CMKRNL

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
How is it not compatible with Win 8? It is as long as you enter bios and temporarily disable Secure Boot. SUPPOSEDLY, you can disable secure boot permanently if you wish (at least Intel says you can) but although Dell told Ed Bott in 2011 that this would be possible on all Dell Win 8 computers that has turned out to be NOT true, but you can disable temporarily and then Acronis will work. (Of course, if it is a Dell you are required to call Dell to get permission to enter Bios...Dell is having so many problems with new BIOS that they actually are telling users that entering Bios and changing anything will void the warranty unless done so under Dell tech supervision) but I don't know if other OEMs are doing this or having the severe problems Dell is having with its implementation of UEFI and fast boot. So, Acronis TI is compatible in THIS REGARD. Entering bios on a Win 8 computer is not easy though as boot is screaming fast so you have to know exactly what to do (hit the computer start button with one hand and with the other, AT THE SAME TIME, begin tapping F2 if you wish to enter bios. Acronis should have those instructions on their site as it is different from earlier OSes where boot was much slower.

A perhaps more important consideration is that Acronis 2011 did not support EFI GPT drives - does 2013? I see nothing about it at Acronis site. What I see there would make me run as fast as possible in the opposite direction and not because of whether not it fully supports Win 8 and restoration of EFI GPT drives but because of all the garbage that is now included in what should be an imaging program only.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
reply to Smokey Bear
said by Smokey Bear:

The software is not fully functional, some of the features don't work 'out-of-the-box'. Again we see here lack of vendor information which almost always (can) lead to misinterpretation and serious problems. True Image is not just 'standard' software, it is intended to get all data back with a complete PC-backup solution in case of disaster. FWIW this is also one of Acronis' sale argument, they are also talking about "an easy-to-use data backup and hard drive recovery software." Again, a knowledgable customer will know what to do in case of disaster on a Windows 8 PC (anyways let's hope he will know), how about a noob buying in confidence the software will not strike in case of emergency? He isn't interested in hardware issues as mentioned by you nor have the knowledge about hardware, all he need is a working PC, that's the sole reason he bought the software after reading: "New! This software is Windows 8 compatible".

You seriously don't understand this issue and are latching onto an emotional and foolish argument.

The fact that somebody has to go into the BIOS in order to turn off Secure Boot is not some kind of rocket science requirement, especially since on many systems they'll have to go into the BIOS anyway to set the boot order for the CD, and it's the kind of thing you take care of with a knowledge base article.


Smokey Bear
veritas odium parit
Premium
join:2008-03-15
Annie's Pub
kudos:4

2 recommendations

said by Steve:
You seriously don't understand this issue and are latching onto an emotional and foolish argument.

The fact that somebody has to go into the BIOS in order to turn off Secure Boot is not some kind of rocket science requirement, especially since on many systems they'll have to go into the BIOS anyway to set the boot order for the CD, and it's the kind of thing you take care of with a knowledge base article.

Again: you are talking BS, please don't try to characterize me as being emotional and foolish. You are invited to read e.g. the Official Acronis Support Forums and see the light. Please notice that even Acronis haven't an satisfying answer/solution on EUFI-related problems. Finally, don't forget to read posts regarding specific PC-manufacturers, BIOS and EUFI and there's no solution, especially not in the way you are suggesting. You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work.

It's obvious you are supporting the vendor no matter they are right or wrong, I prefer to support the consumer, even more in cases where the vendor don't know how to provide support in a reliable, adequate and knowledgeable way.
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.


Steve
I know your IP address
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Foothill Ranch, CA
kudos:5
said by Smokey Bear:

You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work.

So you're blaming Acronis for not being "Windows 8 compatible" when the underlying hardware isn't either?

Really?

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to Smokey Bear
Again, "Secure Boot" is a DRM. And, as it always happens with DRM, customer suffers. Why? Because DRM is essentially a vendor's protection from unwanted customer's actions. Nothing less and nothing more. The rest is just a marketing BS around it.

In this case the vendor is m$. Unwanted customer's action is booting any other OS, except Windows OS.

Today (and so far) they can't take complete control over user's PC and prohibit to use other OS's or they'd face many sue cases. But they want to create additional difficulties for user to do so. That's why they specify that "Secure Boot" should be optional (again, at this time so far). But, at the same time, they require the option to be set "on" by default... My guess is, if it's become a new normal, the next step would be - they require to remove the option from the BIOS and allow to boot Windows OS without any exceptions. But that will only work in their wild dreams, I hope...

Returning back to Acronis:
1. By "Secure Boot" design - there is no way to boot any other OS except Windows 8. And Acronis True Image is that "unauthorized" OS. You have to turn off that feature (if you can) in order to use it.
2. The only thing, that I can blame Acronis for, is - they did not warn every their customer to turn off "Secure Boot" as a first necessary step of using True Image.
3. If users discover that they can't turn "Secure Boot" in their PC, they should return that PC back to manufacturers as a "lemon" (you can't restore your data in case of any hardware failure).
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

microcomp

join:2001-01-30
Santa Rosa, CA
reply to Smokey Bear
This is a problem I recently experienced when I tried to clean-up my Windows 8 install due to problems with several programs and then couldn't boot from my True Image 2013 Recovery CD to load my backup. I did find the secure boot setting in the BIOS and turned that off but that still didn't work. I then had to change the UEFI setting in the BIOS and sure enough I could finally boot from the CD. Unfortunately with the UEFI setting changed the system no longer recognized my external backup drives where my True Image backups were saved. So now what are we supposed to do to use True Image to make backups that can be accessed from a boot CD. The program for me has become useless as I guess any other backup program that uses a boot CD. Microsoft really didn't think this through when creating Windows 8 and how it was going to effect all these software programs. I now have no backup solution that runs from CD which is what you need when you drive fails and there is no software available on the hard drive. Any ideas of what will work for backups now?