Topic 'Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments' in forum 'Security' - dslreports.com

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Sat, 13 Apr 2013 19:31:47 EDT

Mele20 posted : So Acronis finally signed their loader! That is good news. :)

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Sat, 13 Apr 2013 14:30:08 EDT

Bluefish posted : I just wanted to point out that this has been fixed by Acronis (well, at least in my case it was) for anyone that has a UEFI bios and wants to use Acronis. I have a Sony Vaio T Series Ultrabook and tried to create recovery disks using Vaio Care and no matter what I did I could not create all the disks. The create recovery disk utility in Vaio Care would not recognize most of the DVD's I tried to use to create the disks, even though outside of the utility these same disks were recognized fine by Windows 8 and I was able to write to them. Sony Chat support was telling me to do things I had already done to try to fix the problem, so I gave up on creating the recovery disks and made a system image with Acronis. After I was done creating the SI, I tried to boot to Acronis and could not because of Secure Boot. I googled and found a patch which I downloaded, installed and created a new bootable Acronis CD and then was able to boot from the Acronis disk I had created. �kb.acronis.com/content/38965.

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 15:01:57 EDT

HA Nut posted : Yeah Ian, I wonder this too.

A month or 2 ago, I tried to boot a Clonezilla CD in the only Win 8 machine I've had the (dis?)pleasure to work with. It would not boot until SecureBoot and UEFI were disabled.

I understood what was wrong but as you note, many users would not.

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 13:13:28 EDT

Ian posted :

said by Blackbird:

Is there any imaging software product that doesn't currently face this Win8/SecureBoot barrier that requires BIOS intervention to resolve... especially in case of a drive/hardware failure?

I wondered the same thing.

The entire feature is more or less designed to prevent booting non Windows 8 operating systems. An Acronis recovery disk fits the general definition of "not Windows 8", since it uses Linux.

Now Microsoft might counter with "No no. It's a security feature! Really!" But it doesn't really matter.

I agree though that the people we're talking about here that would be tripped up is probably pretty limited. The number of people knowledgeable enough to know how to image their system, but don't know how to make a fairly simple bios adjustment I would wager is a pretty small group. And a simple google search of the problem will in due course, turn up this workaround in seconds.

If I were Acronis, I'd be plastering this warning far and wide.

That said, the time to verify that your backup method is behaving as it should, is not "after my system crashes". You should make sure your recovery media is bootable before it needs to be.
--
�Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.� � David Wong

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:58:35 EDT

nwrickert posted : I guess I never noticed this thread before today.

I purchased a box with Win 8, in February.

A few days later, I decided to take an initial Acronis backup, since the computer did not come with recovery disks.

I inserted the Acronis CD and booted, then hit F12 during boot to get a BIOS boot menu. The system booted straight into Windows.

I went to the BIOS, turned off secure boot. I again booted and hit F12. The Acronis CD was there among the choices. I booted it, and backed up the system to an external drive. Then I turned secure boot back on.

This does not seem a problem to me.

More recently, I installed opensuse 12.3. I was able to do that with the system entirely in secure boot mode. As far as I know, the same is possible with Fedora and Ubuntu. If Acronis wants to base its recovery environment on a distro with secure boot support, they could probably do that easily. Or, leave it as it is. I don't see a problem with turning off secure boot for backup/recovery purposes.
--
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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 04:05:37 EDT

microcomp posted : This is a problem I recently experienced when I tried to clean-up my Windows 8 install due to problems with several programs and then couldn't boot from my True Image 2013 Recovery CD to load my backup. I did find the secure boot setting in the BIOS and turned that off but that still didn't work. I then had to change the UEFI setting in the BIOS and sure enough I could finally boot from the CD. Unfortunately with the UEFI setting changed the system no longer recognized my external backup drives where my True Image backups were saved. So now what are we supposed to do to use True Image to make backups that can be accessed from a boot CD. The program for me has become useless as I guess any other backup program that uses a boot CD. Microsoft really didn't think this through when creating Windows 8 and how it was going to effect all these software programs. I now have no backup solution that runs from CD which is what you need when you drive fails and there is no software available on the hard drive. Any ideas of what will work for backups now?

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:21:37 EDT

Blackbird posted : This all reminds me greatly of the driver fiascos with Vista. Microsoft blamed vendors for being late to the party with Vista-compatible drivers, vendors blamed Microsoft for slowness in spec releases and approvals, OEMs blamed both of them for problems with Vista on their computers, and the poor user who had problems was left to flounder around and try to pick up the pieces however he could, including frequenting forums like these. It was one of the key reasons Vista was less than a blinding market success.

With things like the SecureBoot issue, Win 8 is lining up in the same vein... and unless both the OEMs (at least any that don't bless or permit BIOS tweaking, such as Dell) and Microsoft get their acts together and end up on exactly the same page about SecureBoot, they'll all end up losing out in eventual sales dollars. Word gets around, even if it's only partially correct. And if word gets out that many Win8 systems won't boot properly after a hard-drive or major software catastrophe, the damage will be done across the board, regardless of who's primary fault it is or even whose computer brand it is. And Win8 will be guaranteed a position right up there with Vista and Win98ME, deservedly or not in each case.
--
�The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.� A. de Tocqueville

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:55:53 EDT

NOYB posted :
That's why I ended by saying this:
"make sure it can easily be turned off in the BIOS"

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:39:13 EDT

Mele20 posted :

said by NOYB:

Windows 8 is fine. You don't have to use SecureBoot if you don't want too. Just make sure it can easily be turned off in the BIOS.

That is simply not true at least for the Dell XPS 8500 and Alienware machines. It may also be that it is not possible to turn it off permanently on just some of these machines based on the hardware for these machines as the user configured at point of sale if buying on the vendor's website. Look at the absolute mess that Dell has currently with EVERY XPS 8500 THAT SHIPS with a 32GB SSD cache drive installed. These machines refuse to boot to Windows 8 on the second boot. Dell says it is a Microsoft/Intel problem which it is but even though Microsoft issued a fix in October Dell is not including the fix in their factory image of Windows 8 for these machines. The new owner can't get the Microsoft fix because their machine won't boot after the first boot (or return from the first time it sleeps but instead turns itself off and then cannot be rebooted beyond Dell logo) and Dell has not even included a paper alert with the machine telling the user to get the fix immediately upon first boot.

That situation is not directly related to secureboot but I mentioned it to illustrate that making a blanket statement that one can turn off secureboot permanently if one wants is not necessarily true. Each OEM has implemented UEFI bios differently and it is a potential nightmare out there for customers.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:36:19 EDT

NOYB posted :

said by Lagz:

You just made Mele20's argument. :D This is exactly why Microsoft is responsible. Companies like Dell are out for profit else they won't be in business. Getting certified and the sticker means they make a profit.

That's fine. I was simply clarifying the requirement / "ORDER".

The way I see it there are two possibilities to squash SecureBoot.

1) The major PC vendors all collectively refuse MS Win8 blessing & sticker (certification). Thus they are all on the same level playing field in that regard.
2) Consumers boycott anything with Windows 8 certification sticker.

I see nether of those happening in any significance.

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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:25:00 EDT

Mele20 posted : Yes, the user can turn it off TEMPORARILY under the direction of a Dell tech. Of course, Dell cannot control the user who turns it off temporarily on their own. But most will not do that...they will be scared to do it. Plus, it was made very clear to me that I cannot turn it off permanently even though Dell told Ed Bott in late 20011 that this would be possible on all Dells with Windows 8. You are rather naive if you think it matters greatly what Microsoft told the OEMs. The OEMs can make life hell for the customer if they don't do what the OEM says.

Dell is saying, if I want to turn of Secureboot permanently, to either reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode or downgrade and, unlike how I was first treated when I asked for Reinstallation DVDs for both Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro (and was willing to pay a reasonable fee for shipping) and got a "huh" response, Dell is now sending out reinstallation and downgrade disks (to those with Win 8 Pro) or USB sticks. (I did get the USB sticks for both Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro (sent by FedX overnight free of charge) and supervisors credited me later with being the Sm/Med business customer who got Dell's policy on this clarified so that support techs, customer service reps, etc were all clear about it and on the same page but I still see confusion about downgrade rights and how Dell handles that in the Dell forums but the confusion is mostly surrounding Home Division customers).

I actually like some things about Win 8 and with Start8 installed, I would like to continue to use Win 8 Pro but I want to do so with secure boot permanently OFF and I have been told both by techs (who are highly trained just for the XPS 8500 and Alienware machines) and their supervisors that this is NOT possible at least with these higher end machines. The only way would be to reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode or downgrade to Win 7 Pro.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:23:50 EDT

NOYB posted :
Windows 8 is fine. You don't have to use SecureBoot if you don't want too. Just make sure it can easily be turned off in the BIOS.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:20:24 EDT

Lagz posted :

said by NOYB:

said by Mele20:

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:20:18 EDT

NOYB posted :
My backup is my previous computer and xcopy and/or robocopy script to keep it in sync with my new computer. Always keep a working backup.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:13:58 EDT

NOYB posted :

said by Mele20:

This is not completely accurate.

Only have to ship with SecureBoot on in order to have Microsoft Windows 8 blessing & sticker.

But not doing so would likely be impractical. Probably wouldn't get much if any support or volume license pricing from Microsoft. Putting them in impossible position to compete.

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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:34:25 EDT

Steve posted :

said by Mele20:

I want to be able to boot Linux along with Windows 8. I have been told by Dell (with supervisors also stating this) that I canNOT turn off Secure Boot permanently or what happened last week (because I had it turned off) will happen again, the computer may be unsalvageable the next time it happens, and Dell has stated turning off Secure Boot permanently violates the hardware warranty.

I call bullshit. Maybe they told you this, but it's not true. Microsoft requires that for x86 machines, the user must be able to turn off Secure Boot.

Steve
--
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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:23:45 EDT

Mele20 posted :

said by Woody79_00:

I agree with Steve, this isn't Acronis fault. Acronis has "zero control" over functions added to motherboards by OEM or other motherboard manufacturers. SecureBoot being one of those features.

The software itself works just fine, if the OEM or motherboard vendor ships the board with SecureBoot on, then it is up to the user to disable it.

Let's get one thing clear. Do NOT blame the OEM or motherboard manufacturer for this mess. The blame falls directly on the shoulders of Microsoft. The OEMs have been ORDERED by Microsoft to ship ALL computers that have Windows 8 with Secureboot ON.

Let's make one other thing clear here. Why did Microsoft do this? They did it to further solidify their monopoly. And they were able to get away with this arrogant move only because the USA is full of corrupt persons in power, with the general populace deluded, chronically depressed and increasingly interested mostly in circus theatrics. If this mess can be resolved, it falls to the shoulders of EU to do so. Sad day for us USA citizens.

I want to be able to boot Linux along with Windows 8. I have been told by Dell (with supervisors also stating this) that I canNOT turn off Secure Boot permanently or what happened last week (because I had it turned off) will happen again, the computer may be unsalvageable the next time it happens, and Dell has stated turning off Secure Boot permanently violates the hardware warranty. (I doubt there could be any legal enforcement of the latter but Dell could make the user's life hell and Dell has shown many times that they are not afraid of state attorney generals suing them, etc. so most users will never turn off Secure Boot and will not be able to dual boot Linux which is exactly what Microsoft which created this mess wants)! Dell has also told me that no user is to enter BIOS and certainly not to make changes there, even temporary ones, except under the express directions of a hardware support tech.

Dell is starting to tell users who had the foresight to buy a Windows 8 machine with the Pro version to downgrade immediately to Windows 7 if they wish to dual boot Linux and/or they wish to tinker with BIOS, etc. They are also telling users to reinstall Win 8 in legacy mode.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 14:24:14 EDT

OZO posted : "Secure Boot" allows to boot only Windows 8 and only from the HD.
Users have to go to BIOS in order to remove the restriction.

I don't know why the title of the tread had to be changed. It's not Acronis-specific problem.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

Re: Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:25:37 EDT

Blackbird posted : Is there any imaging software product that doesn't currently face this Win8/SecureBoot barrier that requires BIOS intervention to resolve... especially in case of a drive/hardware failure?
--
�The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.� A. de Tocqueville

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 12:26:04 EDT

Lagz posted : This might be a gold mine for PC repair. Average Joe jumps into the BIOS and screws up something, then heads to the repair shop or tosses it as trash. This might become a nightmare for manufacturers as well, as average Joe now has to get inside his BIOS and tinker. :D
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 12:04:31 EDT

Woody79_00 posted : I agree with Steve, this isn't Acronis fault. Acronis has "zero control" over functions added to motherboards by OEM or other motherboard manufacturers. SecureBoot being one of those features.

The software itself works just fine, if the OEM or motherboard vendor ships the board with SecureBoot on, then it is up to the user to disable it.

I know i speak for many here when I say: "I sure don't want any software messing around with any of my BIOS settings"....that would just be a recipe for not only a firestorm, but a technical support nightmare Acronis....

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:54:33 EDT

Lagz posted :

said by salahx:

This shouldn't even really be an issue though, Linux distributions already have a solution for this.

Apparently not. :D
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 05:18:00 EDT

Smokey Bear posted :

said by ashrc4:

said by Smokey Bear:
Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Can you work on the title please .... Seems misleading.
Like "Windows 8 Secure Boot proving problems for Acronis"

Done, topic is focusing on Acronis True Image in particular, therefore title changed as requested.
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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:19:51 EDT

ashrc4 posted :

said by Smokey Bear:

Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Can you work on the title please .... Seems misleading.
Like "Windows 8 Secure Boot proving problems for Acronis"
--
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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 01:13:38 EDT

salahx posted : This shouldn't even really be an issue though, Linux distributions already have a solution for this.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 14:23:06 EDT

OZO posted : Again, "Secure Boot" is a DRM. And, as it always happens with DRM, customer suffers. Why? Because DRM is essentially a vendor's protection from unwanted customer's actions. Nothing less and nothing more. The rest is just a marketing BS around it.

In this case the vendor is m$. Unwanted customer's action is booting any other OS, except Windows OS.

Today (and so far) they can't take complete control over user's PC and prohibit to use other OS's or they'd face many sue cases. But they want to create additional difficulties for user to do so. That's why they specify that "Secure Boot" should be optional (again, at this time so far). But, at the same time, they require the option to be set "on" by default... My guess is, if it's become a new normal, the next step would be - they require to remove the option from the BIOS and allow to boot Windows OS without any exceptions. But that will only work in their wild dreams, I hope...

Returning back to Acronis:
1. By "Secure Boot" design - there is no way to boot any other OS except Windows 8. And Acronis True Image is that "unauthorized" OS. You have to turn off that feature (if you can) in order to use it.
2. The only thing, that I can blame Acronis for, is - they did not warn every their customer to turn off "Secure Boot" as a first necessary step of using True Image.
3. If users discover that they can't turn "Secure Boot" in their PC, they should return that PC back to manufacturers as a "lemon" (you can't restore your data in case of any hardware failure).
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:11:02 EDT

Steve posted :

said by Smokey Bear:

You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work.

So you're blaming Acronis for not being "Windows 8 compatible" when the underlying hardware isn't either?

Really?

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:40:21 EDT

Smokey Bear posted :

said by Steve:
You seriously don't understand this issue and are latching onto an emotional and foolish argument.

The fact that somebody has to go into the BIOS in order to turn off Secure Boot is not some kind of rocket science requirement, especially since on many systems they'll have to go into the BIOS anyway to set the boot order for the CD, and it's the kind of thing you take care of with a knowledge base article.

Again: you are talking BS, please don't try to characterize me as being emotional and foolish. You are invited to read e.g. the Official Acronis Support Forums and see the light. Please notice that even Acronis haven't an satisfying answer/solution on EUFI-related problems. Finally, don't forget to read posts regarding specific PC-manufacturers, BIOS and EUFI and there's no solution, especially not in the way you are suggesting. You are presenting the EUFI-issue as being solvable, however there are many cases that going into BIOS and making appropriate settings just don't work.

It's obvious you are supporting the vendor no matter they are right or wrong, I prefer to support the consumer, even more in cases where the vendor don't know how to provide support in a reliable, adequate and knowledgeable way.
--
»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone�s going to think you�re a moron.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:40:07 EDT

Lagz posted : The problem here is that most people don't and won't enter the bios for fear of messing something up. I know people that are pretty computer savvy that refuse to mess with the bios after I had mentioning that they needed to change a setting in it.
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:16:38 EDT

Steve posted :

said by Smokey Bear:

The software is not fully functional, some of the features don't work 'out-of-the-box'. Again we see here lack of vendor information which almost always (can) lead to misinterpretation and serious problems. True Image is not just 'standard' software, it is intended to get all data back with a complete PC-backup solution in case of disaster. FWIW this is also one of Acronis' sale argument, they are also talking about "an easy-to-use data backup and hard drive recovery software." Again, a knowledgable customer will know what to do in case of disaster on a Windows 8 PC (anyways let's hope he will know), how about a noob buying in confidence the software will not strike in case of emergency? He isn't interested in hardware issues as mentioned by you nor have the knowledge about hardware, all he need is a working PC, that's the sole reason he bought the software after reading: "New! This software is Windows 8 compatible".

You seriously don't understand this issue and are latching onto an emotional and foolish argument.

The fact that somebody has to go into the BIOS in order to turn off Secure Boot is not some kind of rocket science requirement, especially since on many systems they'll have to go into the BIOS anyway to set the boot order for the CD, and it's the kind of thing you take care of with a knowledge base article.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:41:08 EDT

Mele20 posted : How is it not compatible with Win 8? It is as long as you enter bios and temporarily disable Secure Boot. SUPPOSEDLY, you can disable secure boot permanently if you wish (at least Intel says you can) but although Dell told Ed Bott in 2011 that this would be possible on all Dell Win 8 computers that has turned out to be NOT true, but you can disable temporarily and then Acronis will work. (Of course, if it is a Dell you are required to call Dell to get permission to enter Bios...Dell is having so many problems with new BIOS that they actually are telling users that entering Bios and changing anything will void the warranty unless done so under Dell tech supervision) but I don't know if other OEMs are doing this or having the severe problems Dell is having with its implementation of UEFI and fast boot. So, Acronis TI is compatible in THIS REGARD. Entering bios on a Win 8 computer is not easy though as boot is screaming fast so you have to know exactly what to do (hit the computer start button with one hand and with the other, AT THE SAME TIME, begin tapping F2 if you wish to enter bios. Acronis should have those instructions on their site as it is different from earlier OSes where boot was much slower.

A perhaps more important consideration is that Acronis 2011 did not support EFI GPT drives - does 2013? I see nothing about it at Acronis site. What I see there would make me run as fast as possible in the opposite direction and not because of whether not it fully supports Win 8 and restoration of EFI GPT drives but because of all the garbage that is now included in what should be an imaging program only.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:59:48 EDT

Drunkula posted : I installed Win8 to my laptop and I really don't like it. I have my C: and D: drives (Win7) saved to an external USB drive using Acronis. However, I don't believe it will affect my as my laptop is not using SecureBoot. We'll see, though.
--
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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 07:58:38 EDT

vaxvms posted :

said by Steve:

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

You can't blame Acronis for what's happening but you can fault them for not stating their product won't do some of the things it claims.
It doesn't do shazbot with Win 8. The product spec needs to say it doesn't do shazbot with Win 8 and shouldn't be touted as being "fully" compatible.
--
CMKRNL

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 07:39:25 EDT

Jan Janowski posted : Now I have Another reason why I have no interest in Windows 8
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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 05:30:32 EDT

Smokey Bear posted :

said by Steve:

said by Smokey Bear:
What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

One can be fully compatible with Windows 8 while still being at the mercy of hardware that won't boot a non-Microsoft OS, and it's just how it goes - this is a hardware issue and it's not the job of Acronis to provide an AOL-esque wizard that does what cannot be done.

The software is not fully functional, some of the features don't work 'out-of-the-box'. Again we see here lack of vendor information wich almost always (can) lead to misinterpretation and serious problems. True Image is not just 'standard' software, it is intended to get all data back with a complete PC-backup solution in case of disaster. FWIW this is also one of Acronis' sale argument, they are also talking about "an easy-to-use data backup and hard drive recovery software." Again, a knowledgable customer will know what to do in case of disaster on a Windows 8 PC (anyways let's hope he will know), how about a noob buying in confidence the software will not strike in case of emergency? He isn't interested in hardware issues as mentioned by you nor have the knowledge about hardware, all he need is a working PC, that's the sole reason he bought the software after reading: "New! This software is Windows 8 compatible".
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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 23:07:44 EDT

OZO posted :

said by Lagz:

Windows 8 DRM working as intended! :D

Yes, indeed: As it was cited:
Secure Boot is a new anti-rootkit feature introduced with Windows 8, which is designed to prevent the PC from booting an unrecognised operating system.

Everything that's not Windows 8 is an "unrecognized" (or "unauthorized", if you want it this way) OS and, by design, should not be allowed to boot on that PC... Perhaps a good way to re-gain PC market from the perspective of the company that pushed that design on users...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 23:01:05 EDT

Lagz posted :

said by Steve:

said by Smokey Bear:

What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.

I'm sorry, you are completely misreading this whole situation, blaming Acronis for behavior that's not even remotely bad or misleading.

One can be fully compatible with Windows 8 while still being at the mercy of hardware that won't boot a non-Microsoft OS, and it's just how it goes - this is a hardware issue and it's not the job of Acronis to provide an AOL-esque wizard that does what cannot be done.

Windows 8 DRM working as intended! :D
--
When somebody tells you nothing is impossible, ask him to dribble a football.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:18:21 EDT

Steve posted :

said by Smokey Bear:

What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:58:43 EDT

Smokey Bear posted :

said by Steve:

said by Smokey Bear:
I'm not the vendor, I don't advertise with "compatible with Windows 8", it's all up to Acronis.

If you believe that "Windows 8" means "must have secure boot", you're confused.

What I mean is that vendor 'forgot' mentioning the secure boot issue, I can't imagine vendor believes that solely 'knowledgable' people will buy the product.
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»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone�s going to think you�re a moron.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:56:52 EDT

Steve posted :

said by Smokey Bear:

I'm not the vendor, I don't advertise with "compatible with Windows 8", it's all up to Acronis.

If you believe that "Windows 8" means "must have secure boot", you're confused.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:47:03 EDT

BlitzenZeus posted : It's really easy to disable, and even Microsoft has recommended times you have to disable it beyond the more logical reasons to disable it.

»[WIN8] Windows 8 with Secure Boot enabled may no longer boot aft

If you have to boot from outside media it's not unexpected to turn off secure boot.

I see overreaction in the article unless the motherboard in question didn't allow them to disable it. I can only guess that the next step would be to have to go as far as making a new partition, and making an entry in the bcd loader, however I don't want recovery software needing to make a recovery partition on my hdd, I would still rather boot from it externally.
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I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:30:41 EDT

Smokey Bear posted :

said by DigitalXeron:
The problem is Microsoft told OEMs to deploy SecureBoot on mainboards for Windows 8 certification, some OEMs took this as "Enforce SecureBoot no matter what" and ran with it, leading to situations where users do not know that there's an option to disable SecureBoot (if that option is provided by the OEM) as many OEMs nowadays do the bare minimum possible.

I fully agree.
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»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone�s going to think you�re a moron.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:23:17 EDT

Smokey Bear posted :

said by Steve:

said by Smokey Bear:
shame on Acronis.

Huh? What would you propose they do? Please show your work.

I'm not the vendor, I don't advertise with "compatible with Windows 8", it's all up to Acronis. However you are a full-skilled consultant so can advise them in a professional way, I'm just a nobody.
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»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone�s going to think you�re a moron.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:14:01 EDT

Smokey Bear posted :

said by Steve:
Windows 8 certification requires the ability to disable Secure Boot (for x86 at least), and anybody who's game enough to do image backup and restore will probably not have any trouble finding how to do this in the BIOS.

Sorry Steve you are talking BS, I'll bet with you that most Acronis customers have no experience with secure boot. Besides, BIOS is to many people an unknown word, and in case they know what BIOS is they don't know anything about required settings. You know about such issues, I know, a few others know, and that's it.
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»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone�s going to think you�re a moron.

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:56:23 EDT

Steve posted : Windows 8 certification requires the ability to disable Secure Boot (for x86 at least), and anybody who's game enough to do image backup and restore will probably not have any trouble finding how to do this in the BIOS.
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Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Security Consultant | Orange County, California USA | my web site

Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:53:38 EDT

DigitalXeron posted : The problem is beyond Acronis' control. They can only write code, they can't force a motherboard to do something the motherboard doesn't want to do. Windows 8 compatibility and UEFI default-setup compatibility are two different elements.

The real issue is UEFI SecureBoot and how it is implemented. It is implemented based on a whitelist mechanism, it is impossible for every recovery software package to have their keys/signature installed on every single UEFI firmware installation. OEMs and mainboard manufacturers will not take that time or effort.

The problem is Microsoft told OEMs to deploy SecureBoot on mainboards for Windows 8 certification, some OEMs took this as "Enforce SecureBoot no matter what" and ran with it, leading to situations where users do not know that there's an option to disable SecureBoot (if that option is provided by the OEM) as many OEMs nowadays do the bare minimum possible.
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--Kradorex Xeron
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Re: Windows 8 is blocking Linux-based recovery environments

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:30:02 EDT

Steve posted :

said by Smokey Bear:

shame on Acronis.

Huh? What would you propose they do? Please show your work.

Windows 8 Secure Boot proves problems for Acronis True Image

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:16:12 EDT

Smokey Bear posted : PcPro | 15 Jan 2013

»www.pcpro.co.uk/news/379315/wind···ue-image

quote:
Customers attempting to restore PCs using Acronis True Image 2013 are being blocked by Windows 8's Secure Boot facility - even though the software is sold as fully Windows 8 compatible.

Secure Boot is a new anti-rootkit feature introduced with Windows 8, which is designed to prevent the PC from booting an unrecognised operating system. However, it has the unfortunate side effect of also blocking Linux-based recovery environments, such as Acronis' Start Up manager.

Attempts to boot from a recovery image are met with the warning message: "Selected boot image did not authenticate. Press 'Enter' to continue."

Customers attempting to restore PCs using Acronis True Image 2013 are being blocked by Windows 8's Secure Boot facility - even though the software is sold as fully Windows 8 compatible.

Nevertheless, the company sells compatibility with Windows 8 as one of the core new features of Acronis True Image 2013 on its website. It makes no mention of having to disable a core security feature in the UEFI BIOS to perform a system recovery.

IMO no good at all, shame on Acronis.

Edited post title: changed for reason of better thread description
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»bit.ly/gUqYaH - C. Brian Smith: Think of the exclamation point as a car horn: a little goes a long way. Lay on it too hard and everyone’s going to think you’re a moron.