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Scatcatpdx
Fur It Up

join:2007-06-22
Portland, OR
Reviews:
·Comcast

Netflix Thug like Behavior.

The problem is Netflix want to jam more bandwidth, compete with cable companies and expect the cable companies to give them room and pay for and upgrades to the network; all so can Netflix can make money off a minority of ISP's customers.
To Netflix is a case of companies behaving badly.


spdickey

join:2002-11-17
Pacific Palisades, CA

I am paying extra for TWCs best service. If they can't provide that to the whole internet, including Netflix, I blame TWC.



anon anon

@charter.com
reply to Scatcatpdx

Well maybe Netflix wouldn't have to go this route if ISP didn't have caps. Only 2 hours and 45 minutes of SuperHD streaming per day would put one over a 250 GB cap.

Also Netflix already pays for it's bandwidth.

And the reason why these ISP have customers paying $50+ month for high speed broadband is BECAUSE of companies like Netflix. If all I'm doing is checking e-mail, weather and sport scores and paying bills online I don't need high speed broadband. In fact I don't need my ISP at all because I can do all of that from my smartphone.


silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

The caps have nothing to do with it. This will still count against caps.

Netflix isn't paying for this bandwidth or at least very little. That is part of the point to this program. To benefit Netflix. It doesn't really benefit ISPs. Customers are going to subscribe regardless of if they can get super HD. It may save ISPs some bandwidth in their core, but it will greatly increase the traffic in the last mile.


Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to Scatcatpdx

Really? Do you have any clue what you are talking about?

The problem is... Netflix is popular and many people want it. They will get it and will put lots of traffic on the ISP's whether that ISP wants it or not.

Now Netflix is able to provide their content at higher resolutions. They could do this without the ISP's agreeing, but it would be more costly to them, it would be more costly to the ISP and it would further impact the ISP's network.

Netflix is doing the nice thing by offering, for even free, to put content delivery servers deeper into the ISP's network so that 1.) It cost Netflix less to send the data but more importanly 2.) It saves the ISP's money and 3.) It puts less strain on the ISP's network in general.

It is a win win situation for the ISP and Netflix with the ISP's getting the bigger win.


Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to silbaco

Netflix wouldnt be paying for "this" bandwidth to begin with.

They have their peering agreement with Level 3, whom is the biggest provider of bandwidth in the world and the cost of the added traffic for higher resolution is marginal.

They dont need to have any agreement with ISP's and can send all the traffic they need over the consumer's ISP that they consumer wants to consume and there is not a single thing the ISP can do or say. Netflix is trying to save themselves money with Level 3, but they are also saving the ISP money as well as they too have peering agreements affected that the traffic will transit if they dont have caching servers. They are also allowing the ISP to provide better service to a very popular application that 20+ million people use. That makes the ISP's customer happy and makes them look good for doing the very thing they should do.... deliver the packets you request.



MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1
reply to Scatcatpdx

It's the ISP's job to upgrade their infrastructure to support their users demand, whatever that demand is, netflix etc.

In the traditional Netflix world, netflix pays for their bandwidth, customer's pay their upstream providers, not every destination to which they send traffic. This is the basic way that the internet has always worked. Customers be them Netflix, or the average broadband user pay money to their upstream provider and it is the provider's job to provide access to the rest of the internet both their downstream and upstream bandwidth.

That said I have to defend TW in one way, Netflix is strong arming the situation. They are ranking ISP's based on their netflix performance, which casual users may be influenced in their decision about providers.

This the agreement does benefit both companies, ISP's get to reduce their peering traffic, and netflix does the same way, by only sending one copy of a movie to the ISP's caching server.

But Netflix definitely makes out better as the cost for bandwidth is one of their main expenses. and has little downstream traffic, resulting in more lobsided peering while ISP's usually also provide hosting services and have a more equal peering which costs less. More lopsided peering agreements cost more money.

Finally the broadband rating are being used as leverage. Want to move up in the netflix performance rankings, host our servers and save us bandwidth costs.

Netflix is by no means innocent, They are the same as every ISP.


elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink
reply to anon anon

said by anon anon :

Well maybe Netflix wouldn't have to go this route if ISP didn't have caps. Only 2 hours and 45 minutes of SuperHD streaming per day would put one over a 250 GB cap.

Also Netflix already pays for it's bandwidth.

And Netflix is getting the bandwidth it paid for.

But if they want to see their customers happy with "Super" HD, they're going to have to buy some more bandwidth. Evidently, they figured out that last-mile caching is the optimum way to go given the effects of Network Neutrality.

Time Warner is probably willing to go along and allow Netflix to pay to place their caches, but I don't think they're appreciative of Netflix' publicity stunts.

lonon

join:2012-12-21
reply to Skippy25

Yes and because it saves ISPs money it makes any argument against net neutrality bunk. ISPs have been whining that Netflix cost them too much. Now they have no excuse to complain.

Netflix traffic shouldn't count against our caps, but we know that's not going to happen.



RARPSL

join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
reply to Skippy25

said by Skippy25:

Netflix wouldnt be paying for "this" bandwidth to begin with.

They have their peering agreement with Level 3, whom is the biggest provider of bandwidth in the world and the cost of the added traffic for higher resolution is marginal.

They dont need to have any agreement with ISP's and can send all the traffic they need over the consumer's ISP that they consumer wants to consume and there is not a single thing the ISP can do or say. Netflix is trying to save themselves money with Level 3, but they are also saving the ISP money as well as they too have peering agreements affected that the traffic will transit if they dont have caching servers. They are also allowing the ISP to provide better service to a very popular application that 20+ million people use. That makes the ISP's customer happy and makes them look good for doing the very thing they should do.... deliver the packets you request.

The way I understand it (I might be wrong) Netflix's peering with Level 3 is not an issue since the session never goes through Level 3 in the first place. Netflix is placing servers on the ISP's network and thus the complete session is on the ISP's network with no part of it being on the Internet.

Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
reply to Skippy25

said by Skippy25:

Netflix is doing the nice thing by offering, for even free, to put content delivery servers deeper into the ISP's network so that 1.) It cost Netflix less to send the data but more importanly 2.) It saves the ISP's money and 3.) It puts less strain on the ISP's network in general.

It's mainly item #1. With few exceptions, transit capacity is not the issue for a residential ISP. The last mile is where the true bottleneck exists, and short of deploying the caching server on your LAN, there's nothing Netflix can do that's going to change this.

Transit costs are nothing compared to the last mile. Transit connections provide economy of scale, are comparatively easy to upgrade as new technology becomes available, and with relatively balanced traffic ratios can be had for next to nothing.

sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon FiOS
reply to elray

said by elray:

said by anon anon :

Well maybe Netflix wouldn't have to go this route if ISP didn't have caps. Only 2 hours and 45 minutes of SuperHD streaming per day would put one over a 250 GB cap.

Also Netflix already pays for it's bandwidth.

And Netflix is getting the bandwidth it paid for.

But if they want to see their customers happy with "Super" HD, they're going to have to buy some more bandwidth. Evidently, they figured out that last-mile caching is the optimum way to go given the effects of Network Neutrality.

Time Warner is probably willing to go along and allow Netflix to pay to place their caches, but I don't think they're appreciative of Netflix' publicity stunts.

Apparently you don't quite realize how bandwidth works for non-residential customers.

Companies pay X amount for X amount of speed, with a guaranteed 99.999% uptime regardless of the bandwidth used (1MB or 1TB a month). Netflix has the bandwidth capacity to run it via traditional streams, but then there is issue with latency and QoS. Putting it in the middle of the network eliminates outside congestion sources, and reduces the strain on the ISP and CDN networks.

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
reply to RARPSL

I believe you would be understanding wrong.

Unless Netflix has every major ISP running lines to the main server(s) that deliver the content to consumers and the caching servers they have to be running over whomever they have as an ISP (level 3) to reach those networks.



RARPSL

join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

said by Skippy25:

I believe you would be understanding wrong.

Unless Netflix has every major ISP running lines to the main server(s) that deliver the content to consumers and the caching servers they have to be running over whomever they have as an ISP (level 3) to reach those networks.

Please reread my comment. I stated that it was my impression that Netflix is placing their caching servers on the ISP's network so Level 3 is not involved in serving the content to the user since it is coming from a server that is already on the user's ISP network. The only involvement of Level 3 is when Netflix wants to connect to the ISP Hosted Server to add new content.


Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state
reply to Scatcatpdx

said by Scatcatpdx:

The problem is Netflix want to jam more bandwidth, compete with cable companies and expect the cable companies to give them room and pay for and upgrades to the network; all so can Netflix can make money off a minority of ISP's customers.
To Netflix is a case of companies behaving badly.

Is this the kind of putrid filth you say after you are done bending over for the ISPs? The kinds who are looking for corporate handouts, since we pay for them to upgrade their infrastructure, and the content companies we pay for them to upgrade their data servers?

You would be better off leaving your mouth to the ISPs and not giving us your opinions.