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<title>Topic &#x27;Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges&#x27; in forum &#x27;&#x27; - dslreports.com</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27921632</link>
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<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 01:53:55 EDT</pubDate>
<lastBuildDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 01:53:55 EDT</lastBuildDate>

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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27972635</link>
<description><![CDATA[tanzam75 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/789666" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=789666');">Simba7</a>:</said><p>..and the whole "bandwidth hog" thing is crap anyway. So, you have an OC3 connection feeding hundreds of customers that have purchased a 5mbps connection. Then a "bandwidth hog" comes in and uses a bit of it. Hey, he's paying for the 5mbps connection that you advertised. Then everyone's connection slows down because you failed to account for people actually using their connection speeds.<br></p></div>We're going around in circles here.<br><br><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/789666" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=789666');">Simba7</a>:</said><p>It's simple math. 5Mbps * 100 customers = 500Mbps.<br></p></div>Again, you're talking about dedicated connections.  A dedicated 5 Mbps connection would cost hundreds of dollars a month from a Metro Ethernet provider.  (Although these days, they'd probably start you out at 10 Mbps.)<br><br>5 Mbps for 100 customers would never be provisioned at 500 Mbps in a residential setting -- more like 50.  Which means that each user would have 500 Kbps of dedicated bandwidth.  They can burst up to 5 Mbps, to download an ISO or watch a movie.  What they cannot do is to use 5 Mbps all the time.<br><br>Average bandwidth consumption from residential customers is <b>much</b>, <b>much</b> lower than the burst demand.  This is what makes oversubscription possible, and it is also why residential broadband can cost double-digits instead of triple-digits.<br><br>That 10x cost difference is supplied by the 10x oversubscription.  That's what the caps are for.  If you try to use a shared connection like a dedicated connection, then you should pay for it.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:52:27 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27972003</link>
<description><![CDATA[Simba7 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1837949" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1837949');">tanzam75</a>:</said><p>The problem is that you can never tell when a bandwidth hog will move in and wreck the calculations.  Well, unless you put in caps, to keep the bandwidth hogs out.<br><br>And you're opposed to caps.</p></div>Caps don't do sh*t. It's just another way for them to make even more money without fixing the problem. Upgrading your infrastructure and backbone investment does.<br><br>..and the whole "bandwidth hog" thing is crap anyway. So, you have an OC3 connection feeding hundreds of customers that have purchased a 5mbps connection. Then a "bandwidth hog" comes in and uses a bit of it. Hey, he's paying for the 5mbps connection that you advertised. Then everyone's connection slows down because you failed to account for people actually using their connection speeds.<br><br>It's simple math. 5Mbps * 100 customers = 500Mbps. There is no way a single OC3 can handle that. You also have to account for growth if you get more customers. So if you get 150-200 customers, YOU NEED at least a GbE connection to handle that traffic, not the same OC3.<br><br>The point is, don't advertise the speeds you can't deliver. Sure, you can advertise "up to 1000Mbps", but if you can't deliver anywhere close to those speeds, your customers are going to hate you and there's the possibility of a lawsuit (false advertising).<br><br>Also, don't expect to minimally invest in your infrastructure and expect massive returns. I've seen plenty of ISP's and companies fail because of that.<br><small>--<br>Bresnan 30M/5M | CenturyLink 5M/896K<br>MyWS[PnmIIX3@3.2G,8G RAM,500G+1.5T+2T HDDs,Win7]<br>WifeWS[A64@2G,2G RAM,120G HDD,Win7]<br>Router[2xP3@1G,2G RAM,18G HDD,Allied Telesyn AT2560FX,2xDigital DE504,Sun X1034A,2xSun X4444A,SMC 8432BTA,Gentoo]</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:23:22 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27971536</link>
<description><![CDATA[tanzam75 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/789666" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=789666');">Simba7</a>:</said><p>Did you read any of my post? I did not say I'm expecting 18Mbps all the time. I'm saying it should be at least in the same ballpark instead of half or less.</p></div>Yes, I read all of it.  You said that you "should be getting at least between 12-18mbps constant."<br><br>Since you said it should be "constant," then it should never fall below 12 mbps.  That's dedicated bandwidth.<br><br>If you're saying that they should underpromise and overdeliver, then yes, that would be good business practice.  Advertise a lower bandwidth than you're actually capable of providing, so that people get the advertised number much more often.<br><br>The problem is that you can never tell when a bandwidth hog will move in and wreck the calculations.  Well, unless you put in caps, to keep the bandwidth hogs out.<br><br>And you're opposed to caps.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 01:37:49 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27964702</link>
<description><![CDATA[Simba7 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1837949" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1837949');">tanzam75</a>:</said><p>But you're not paying for 18 Mbps of sustained bandwidth.  You're paying for 18 Mbps burst, and "whatever they feel like" average speed.<br><br>Go to a Metro Ethernet company and see how much it costs to get 18 Mbps of dedicated bandwidth.<br> </p></div>Did you read any of my post? I did not say I'm expecting 18Mbps all the time. I'm saying it should be at least in the same ballpark instead of half or less.<br><br>It's like me offering "up to" 100Mbps service (and charging for it), but only delivering 1/10 of that. Of course, to me, that's ethically wrong.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:54:09 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27959330</link>
<description><![CDATA[tanzam75 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/789666" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=789666');">Simba7</a>:</said><p>Um.. If I'm paying for a 18mbps connection and I'm only getting 4, it becomes an issue. I should be getting at least between 12-18mbps constant, not whatever they feel like.<br></p></div>But you're not paying for 18 Mbps of sustained bandwidth.  You're paying for 18 Mbps burst, and "whatever they feel like" average speed.<br><br>Go to a Metro Ethernet company and see how much it costs to get 18 Mbps of dedicated bandwidth.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 18:04:50 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27950964</link>
<description><![CDATA[Simba7 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1837949" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1837949');">tanzam75</a>:</said><p>Because residential services are priced on the assumption that you will only burst to the max speed.</p></div>Um.. If I'm paying for a 18mbps connection and I'm only getting 4, it becomes an issue. I should be getting at least between 12-18mbps constant, not whatever they feel like.<br><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1837949" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1837949');">tanzam75</a>:</said><p>Max speed is not the only part of the equation.  Average speed also matters.  A 1.5 Mbps user who continually maxes out the connection is actually using more network resources than a 20 Mbps burst user who averages less than 1 Mbps.</p></div>Depending on the technology. If you do it right, it shouldn't matter.<br><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1837949" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1837949');">tanzam75</a>:</said><p>But it still can't be unlimited, because the pricing of residential cable Internet is only made possible by the fact that people do not max out their connections.</p></div>This is the 21st century. More and more services are becoming internet-based instead. Also the bandwidth (mbps) is getting cheaper to deliver. The ISP's need to adapt or their customers will find other providers. Unfortunately, some people can't switch and are stuck with only a single ISP, that doesn't give a sh*t. There are a few that do, so I have to give them kudos.<br><small>--<br>Bresnan 30M/5M | CenturyLink 5M/896K<br>MyWS[PnmIIX3@3.2G,8G RAM,500G+1.5T+2T HDDs,Win7]<br>WifeWS[A64@2G,2G RAM,120G HDD,Win7]<br>Router[2xP3@1G,2G RAM,18G HDD,Allied Telesyn AT2560FX,2xDigital DE504,Sun X1034A,2xSun X4444A,SMC 8432BTA,Gentoo]</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2013 02:51:38 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27936987</link>
<description><![CDATA[tanzam75 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/789666" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=789666');">Simba7</a>:</said><p>..and if they can't handle multiple customers having super/ultra-fast tiers, why did they offer it in the first place?<br> </p></div>Because residential services are priced on the assumption that you will only burst to the max speed.<br><br>Max speed is not the only part of the equation.  Average speed also matters.  A 1.5 Mbps user who continually maxes out the connection is actually using more network resources than a 20 Mbps burst user who averages less than 1 Mbps.<br><br>Of course, the 10 Mbps user -- on average -- should use more data in a given month than the 20 Mbps user.  So they ought to get a higher cap to go along with the higher speeds.  But it still can't be unlimited, because the pricing of residential cable Internet is only made possible by the fact that people do not max out their connections.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:56:13 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27935617</link>
<description><![CDATA[Simba7 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1837949" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1837949');">tanzam75</a>:</said><p>Yes, it's unfair that grandma doesn't get to pay $5 for cable Internet, while the bandwidth hog pays $1000.  But surely it's fairer to charge grandma $50 and the bandwidth hog $100, rather than charging everyone $60.</p></div>That's why we have price tiers. If "grandma" wants to just check her email, stick her on the cheapest plan available (ours is 1.5mbps). If you're a power user, get the fastest one (ours is 30mbps). I don't see the blasted problem here.<br><br>Unfortunately, in some areas, that no longer applies. Now you have to buy a "byte" package and risk overages. This isn't "network management". This is just a new way of squeezing more money out of their customers.<br><br>..and if they can't handle multiple customers having super/ultra-fast tiers, why did they offer it in the first place?<br><small>--<br>Bresnan 30M/5M | CenturyLink 5M/896K<br>MyWS[PnmIIX3@3.2G,8G RAM,500G+1.5T+2T HDDs,Win7]<br>WifeWS[A64@2G,2G RAM,120G HDD,Win7]<br>Router[2xP3@1G,2G RAM,18G HDD,Allied Telesyn AT2560FX,2xDigital DE504,Sun X1034A,2xSun X4444A,SMC 8432BTA,Gentoo]</small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:58:42 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27935321</link>
<description><![CDATA[Sarick posted : My mother is a grandma and given the chance she'd do over 50gb a month! She learned about netflix and as a grandma uses her PS3 to stream Dora the Explorer ext to the grand kids. Not to mention her level 15 trophie ranking on PSN. <br><br>Grandmas aren't all low bandwidth users some math the big boy in usage.<br><small>--<br><A HREF="http://www.frontiernet.net/~sarick/dunart/main.htm">Sarick's Dungeon Clipart</a></small>]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 09:35:59 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27931551</link>
<description><![CDATA[OSUGoose posted : That's exactly what I was saying, but the same can be true if you reversed it.<br><br>Case in point here AT&T DSL is ok, yet Insight/RR is oversold.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 00:37:18 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27931434</link>
<description><![CDATA[brad posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1526081" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1526081');">InvalidError</a>:</said><p>Most incumbent ISPs have pretty close to an effective monopoly over their respective service areas so going out of business due to not upgrading is unlikely.<br><br>As for ISPs wanting to extract revenue from their transit providers, Comcast has tried it with Peer1 and Free is trying it on Google so there certainly are some who are tempted to test those waters. While the scheme may be upsetting for CDNs and transit providers, it actually has a handful of advantages if the ISPs' savings from it are passed down to their end-users, one of them being that it takes most capacity-related costs out of end-users' monthly fees... pay directly for physical access, pay indirectly for your actual usage.<br> </p></div>I'm not saying it would on its own but its another nail in their coffin. ISPs in this situation are typically very small and are already struggling as it is.<br><br>Actually it is France Telecom/Orange and Google. The amount of money these very large ISPs are extracting from these companies is a drop in the bucket in the bigger picture and I'm very skeptical the ISPs will pass on any savings to the users. These companies never do anything that truly benefits the end user. If they were using the money to directly go towards doing network upgrades then I wouldn't be against this concept so much but that isn't the case. They just want another revenue stream and drag out doing network upgrades as much as possible.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 23:25:49 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27931323</link>
<description><![CDATA[InvalidError posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1484420" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1484420');">brad</a>:</said><p>Then those ISPs can expect to go out of business. and extract money from their transit providers? Please stop making me laugh.</p></div>Most incumbent ISPs have pretty close to an effective monopoly over their respective service areas so going out of business due to not upgrading is unlikely.<br><br>As for ISPs wanting to extract revenue from their transit providers, Comcast has tried it with Peer1 and Free is trying it on Google so there certainly are some who are tempted to test those waters. While the scheme may be upsetting for CDNs and transit providers, it actually has a handful of advantages if the ISPs' savings from it are passed down to their end-users, one of them being that it takes most capacity-related costs out of end-users' monthly fees... pay directly for physical access, pay indirectly for your actual usage.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 22:40:02 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27931250</link>
<description><![CDATA[brad posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1514772" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1514772');">OSUGoose</a>:</said><p>Compare DSL and Cable, Where the DSL connection provided frequently has issues and throttles even youtube, yet the cable connection doesn't and provides a predictable consistent connection & speed regardless of content or time of day. The cost to provide the cable network will drop as there will be more rate payers to subsidize the costs for the installed network, while the DSL connection will degrade worse as there are less and less users to foot the costs. Now swap roles, and the argument remains.<br> </p></div>What you said is far from true everywhere. There are plenty of places where the opposite is true and *DSL networks run fine without congestion and cable nodes are congested to crap. It really depends on the company and how the network is managed and if the components are upgraded appropriately.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 22:16:42 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27931243</link>
<description><![CDATA[brad posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1526081" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1526081');">InvalidError</a>:</said><p>Not every ISP can afford (or is willing) to use the latest and biggest gear available so don't be surprised if there are more stories about smaller ISPs hitting their equipment's practical brick walls in the future or attempting to extract money from their transit providers to cover some upgrade costs.<br> </p></div>Then those ISPs can expect to go out of business. and extract money from their transit providers? Please stop making me laugh.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 22:13:17 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27928122</link>
<description><![CDATA[tanzam75 posted : Yes, it's unfair that grandma doesn't get to pay $5 for cable Internet, while the bandwidth hog pays $1000.  But surely it's fairer to charge grandma $50 and the bandwidth hog $100, rather than charging everyone $60.<br><br>The problem is that bits are not like molecules -- they're free to transport, until you have to do a node split.  So do you price them like they're free, with a fixed infrastructure charge?  Or do you price them like they're expensive, with a metered charge?  Why not a combination of both, to account for their hybrid nature?<br><br>To point to the lack of a $5 grandma rate as a reason not to charge overage fees is illogical.  You think it's unfair not to charge pure usage-based pricing, so you instead advocate a flat rate in which it's even <b><i>less</i></b> fair?<br><br>I don't understand this "gotcha" mentality when it comes to the guy's comments on congestion.  The reason that there is no congestion today is precisely because the cable companies have spent money in the past -- on DOCSIS 3, on logical node splits, on physical node splits.  Plus, the fairness argument isn't exactly new.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 16:42:25 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27927962</link>
<description><![CDATA[InvalidError posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/911142" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=911142');">guppy_fish</a>:</said><p>Verizon could care less what its users send/receive as being a tier one provider, it costs the same for one bit or one trillion GB, they have no peering charges </p></div>Peering charges have nothing to do with the stuff I was thinking about.<br><br>Unless Verizon can break the laws of physics, their costs would start increasing exponentially once they start having to stitch multiple 2M$ routers together to accommodate peak demand across network nodes. Having to do this at few strategic facilities is one thing but having to do it systematically network-wide would kick costs up a few notches.<br><br>The biggest single-chassis routers can handle about 5Tbps of non-blocking traffic. Once you need to go beyond that while maintaining close to non-blocking routing, things get a whole lot more expensive and that is definitely where Verizon or any other ISP with millions of subscribers would end up if everyone was trying to use 100+Mbps during peak hours, ignoring potential congestion at the DSLAM or node/CMTS level.<br><br>People keep saying that equipment gets cheaper but what they almost always neglect to mention is that density in routed Tbps/rack only doubles every ~5 years, which is much too slow to keep up with peak demand which increases by 50-60%/year which is about 10X over the same period. Since technological progress alone is insufficient to meet demand (about 5X too slow), how many identical switches or routers do you think you need to put together to double the capacity of a single one of the same while maintaining non-blocking performance? You need six of 'em... 2X the capacity = 6X the rack space using same-model equipment. The cost scaling is really horrible.<br><br>Not every ISP can afford (or is willing) to use the latest and biggest gear available so don't be surprised if there are more stories about smaller ISPs hitting their equipment's practical brick walls in the future or attempting to extract money from their transit providers to cover some upgrade costs.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2013 15:15:15 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27925935</link>
<description><![CDATA[OSUGoose posted : We look short term because there were times were we were hyped that fixes were coming for years to only have them be canceled or deployed half-cocked, I'm looking at you AT&T U-Verse.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:53:53 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27925920</link>
<description><![CDATA[OSUGoose posted : Yea but that cost comes down if you build a network that is reliable, more customers will subscribe.<br><br>Compare DSL and Cable, Where the DSL connection provided frequently has issues and throttles even youtube, yet the cable connection doesn't and provides a predictable consistent connection & speed regardless of content or time of day. The cost to provide the cable network will drop as there will be more rate payers to subsidize the costs for the installed network, while the DSL connection will degrade worse as there are less and less users to foot the costs. Now swap roles, and the argument remains.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:50:29 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27925813</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : I am fortunate enough to live in an area with municipal broadband. I'm also fortunate enough to have been given an unrestricted access tour of the local NOC. Granted, the user base is only 15000 users, the lead network engineer reported that typical constant bandwidth usage during prime time stays around 50 MB. If everyone on their program suddenly decided to go hog wild, they would still have sufficient network overhead. Oh yeah, they only charge $35 for a 10 Meg, symmetrical fiber connection. ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:44:48 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27925593</link>
<description><![CDATA[morbo posted : You are not consistent with your own flawed analogy so this discussion is going no where. <br><br>With cable admitting that caps are not about congestion, your point is completely debunked. It's also not about fairness. Until grandma is paying $5 a month for checking her email and the torrent users pay $1000 a month for their heavily used connection, this isn't about fairness. It's about cable companies wanting to double dip for services that are already provided and paid for.  ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:58:09 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27925571</link>
<description><![CDATA[tanzam75 posted : It certainly is not ridiculous.  <br><br>Indeed, fair allocation of fixed costs is <b>precisely</b> the idea behind toll lanes on otherwise-free highways.  Because it's the peak-period drivers who are forcing the road to be expanded, it would be fair for them to pay 100% of the costs.  In contrast, the off-peak drivers could've gotten by without the extra lanes, so they should pay 0% of the costs.  For example, just two months ago, Los Angeles opened High Occupancy/Toll lanes on the I-110.<br><br>It's also becoming common for bridge and tunnel expansions to be paid for through time-of-day pricing.  If you use it at midnight, you pay one rate, because you could've gotten by just fine on the old two-lane bridge.  If you use it during rush hour, then you pay a much higher rate, because you're one of the commuters that forced the government to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a new bridge.<br><br>That "millions and millions of dollars" argument is an illogical strawman.  Nobody's asking one person to pay all of the money up-front.  The fees are paid a little bit at a time, collectively, by all the people who forced the upgrade.  Just like bandwidth cap overages are paid collectively, tens of dollars at a time, by all of the people exceeding the cap.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:50:00 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27924531</link>
<description><![CDATA[Simba7 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/373609" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=373609');">espaeth</a>:</said><p>Technology refresh cycles are 3-5 years, which is about the rate you're seeing access speed increases and bandwidth cap increases.</p></div>Um.. Sure the speed increases, but the cap doesn't for most providers.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 12:39:25 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27924249</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : Your point is well taken, and is an argument for basing access charges on bandwidth: provide a 100kbit/sec pipe for a cheap flat rate, and a 5Mbit/sec pipe for a higher flat rate.  This is in no way a justification for per-byte usage charges on top of the flat-rate charge for bandwidth.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:20:52 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27924135</link>
<description><![CDATA[guppy_fish posted : You Obviously know nothing about FIOS and that for all practical purposes Verizon IS a major backbone of the US internet.<br><br>Verizon could care less what its users send/receive as being a tier one provider, it costs the same for one bit or one trillion GB, they have no peering charges]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:39:41 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27924099</link>
<description><![CDATA[morbo posted : Yes, it costs money to upgrade a node. However, unless the network is completely mismanaged to the point of incompetence, a single user using above average resources cannot be attributed to the cost. That's like saying that the 3 lane interstate highway is congested for 5 hours a day, and at 5 hours and 1 minute of congestion per day the next driver is responsible for adding an additional lane to the highway (millions and millions of dollars). It's ridiculous.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:28:02 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27924033</link>
<description><![CDATA[Crusty posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/373609" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=373609');">espaeth</a>:</said><p><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/568336" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=568336');">morbo</a>:</said><p>The problem is that the caps are mostly arbitrary and used in an anti-competitive way to limit competition from streaming content.</p></div>Yeah, yeah.  We've all heard the blanket statement repeated over and over again on this site.<br><br>How many services really compete head to head?<br><br>At best, online services chip away at sections of what is available via broadcast TV, but there is not a wholesale replacement option.  It's not because of bandwidth caps; it's because anyone with a clue about how that infrastructure is built knows that you can't scale to 100+ million simultaneous Internet video feeds using technology available today.<br><br>Caps aren't the reason that service doesn't exist, no matter how badly you want that to be cause.<br><br><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/568336" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=568336');">morbo</a>:</said><p> If the caps were at least updated annually or on a rolling schedule based on average consumption increases then this wouldn't matter. </p></div>Technology refresh cycles are 3-5 years, which is about the rate you're seeing access speed increases and bandwidth cap increases.<br> </p></div>I haven't seen a speed increase in nearly 7yrs and I'm forced to either have zero internet or just use one ISP or move across the street.  <br><br>But yet, my costs rise each year........]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:03:36 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27923787</link>
<description><![CDATA[InvalidError posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1673498" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1673498');">MovieLover76</a>:</said><p>Really? how do both cablevision and Verizon FiOS manage uncapped users, while also being two of the Fastest ISP's based on real life speed tests. </p></div>Just because you can speedtest the highest speed does not mean the network behind those speeds could actually cope with a large percentage of subscribers using anywhere near those speeds at the same time.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:44:36 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27923544</link>
<description><![CDATA[anon posted : And there ya have it folks... some people <i>still</i> believe the old mantra about caps being an essential part of managing the "network".<br><br>No, caps are and have always been about PR and managing customers' <i>perceptions</i> about using the network. ("Don't use it! You might break it!")]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:02:53 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27923335</link>
<description><![CDATA[MovieLover76 posted : Really? how do both cablevision and Verizon FiOS manage uncapped users, while also being two of the Fastest ISP's based on real life speed tests.<br><br>The lobbyist gave up the argument man, time to toss in the towel. ]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27923335</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 23:53:13 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27922994</link>
<description><![CDATA[InvalidError posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1673498" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1673498');">MovieLover76</a>:</said><p>it's a huge accomplishment that the opposition had so much proof the network congestion was a farce that they finally had to come clean and admit it. </p></div>Congestion would become very real and a very expensive problem to fix if all incentives to moderate usage and artificial speed bumps were removed while people are still expecting dedicated-like performance.<br><br>Building the network just to reach the customers is expensive but bulking up the network to sustain high concurrent usage at high speeds quickly gets expensive too.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:33:55 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27922847</link>
<description><![CDATA[tanzam75 posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/201506" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=201506');">Skippy25</a>:</said><p>I can dispute your use of the word "greater" as a person that has an average bitrate of 5mbit/s has a very marginal cost over someone that uses 100kbits/s per second and that is a fact.<br> </p></div>The additional cost of the heavy user is only negligible while the node has extra capacity.<br><br>As soon as the node hits capacity, the next bit costs <b>thousands of dollars</b>, for the additional equipment to split the node.  And that's assuming you've got unlit fiber available in your existing plant.<br><br>As soon as you run out of fiber to do logical node splits, the next bit costs <b>tens of thousands of dollars</b>.  You have no choice but to run new fiber to the new nodes.<br><br>Now, who pays for it?  Do you make grandma pay the same amount as the heavy downloader?  That's unfair, because grandma didn't max out the node.  Wouldn't it be fair to impose a surcharge on the heavy downloaders, so that they end up paying all of the costs of the additional infrastructure?<br><br>You can argue that the caps are too low, or that the price of the surcharges is too high, or that there's no off-peak free-use period.  Indeed, the cable industry would have a much easier time justifying the caps if they were to have a separate -- and much higher -- cap for off-peak usage.<br><br>But you cannot just blindly argue against caps, as so many do on the DSLReports forums, unless you deliberately ignore the fundamental economics of Internet service.  "Bits are almost free!"  Yes, but there's an asterisk -- they're not free when the pipes get congested.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:39:16 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27922371</link>
<description><![CDATA[Skippy25 posted : I can dispute your use of the word "greater" as a person that has an average bitrate of 5mbit/s has a very marginal cost over someone that uses 100kbits/s per second and that is a fact.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27922371</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 17:55:37 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27922106</link>
<description><![CDATA[espaeth posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/568336" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=568336');">morbo</a>:</said><p>The problem is that the caps are mostly arbitrary and used in an anti-competitive way to limit competition from streaming content.</p></div>Yeah, yeah.  We've all heard the blanket statement repeated over and over again on this site.<br><br>How many services really compete head to head?<br><br>At best, online services chip away at sections of what is available via broadcast TV, but there is not a wholesale replacement option.  It's not because of bandwidth caps; it's because anyone with a clue about how that infrastructure is built knows that you can't scale to 100+ million simultaneous Internet video feeds using technology available today.<br><br>Caps aren't the reason that service doesn't exist, no matter how badly you want that to be cause.<br><br><div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/568336" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=568336');">morbo</a>:</said><p> If the caps were at least updated annually or on a rolling schedule based on average consumption increases then this wouldn't matter. </p></div>Technology refresh cycles are 3-5 years, which is about the rate you're seeing access speed increases and bandwidth cap increases.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27922106</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:48:38 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27922082</link>
<description><![CDATA[Crookshanks posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/568336" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=568336');">morbo</a>:</said><p>I'm glad you admit that this is strictly about milking the subset of customers that consume above average resources for no other reason that "we can" and a mistaken understanding of costs associated with the above average use.  <br> </p></div>It doesn't matter what the cost differential is, you can't dispute the fact that someone who has an average bitrate of 5mbit/s (just to pick a number) imposes a greater cost on the ISP than someone with an average bitrate of 100kbit/s.  The former requires more infrastructure investment than the latter, yet people defend pricing plans that charge them the same amount of money.<br><br>From a business standpoint this policy is hard to argue with.  They alienate a tiny slice of their customer base, which happens to impose the greatest cost on them, and they either monetize them or get them to reduce their cost/leave the network entirely.  It's a win win for the ISP from a business perspective, and I'd probably be doing the same thing if I was running an ISP.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:40:27 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27922061</link>
<description><![CDATA[morbo posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1526398" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1526398');">Crookshanks</a>:</said><p> but the point here isn't to save 95% of their customers money.  It's to monetize the 95%+ percentile of customers that use the lion's share of the available network capacity.<br> </p></div>I'm glad you admit that this is strictly about milking the subset of customers that consume above average resources for no other reason that "we can" and a mistaken understanding of costs associated with the above average use.  ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:36:55 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27922046</link>
<description><![CDATA[morbo posted : The problem is that the caps are mostly arbitrary and used in an anti-competitive way to limit competition from streaming content.  If the caps were at least updated annually or on a rolling schedule based on average consumption increases then this wouldn't matter. ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:31:56 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27921996</link>
<description><![CDATA[espaeth posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/1772823" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=1772823');">elefante72</a>:</said><p>I might agree, but hasn't Comcast kept the same cap for years?  I mean if that is the case, then the D3 upgrade didn't make any bit of difference?</p></div>It started off a decade ago as a "soft" cap where they kicked heavy users off the system.   In 2008 it was defined to be a 250GB cap, and then this year they started to expand the cap / look at strategies for being able to use more capacity for a larger monthly fee.  See: &raquo;<A HREF="/shownews/Exclusive-Some-Comcast-Users-Will-See-500-GB-Cap-121200">Exclusive: Some Comcast Users Will See 500 GB Cap</A><br><br>I think the problem is that infrastructure updates take years, and our culture is now exclusively focused on short term goals/results.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:21:36 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Yeah, let&#x27;s just ignore the access charges</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27921842</link>
<description><![CDATA[Crookshanks posted : <div class="bquote"><said>said by <a href="/profile/373609" onClick="this.blur(); return popup(event,'/uidpop?ajh=1&uid=373609');">espaeth</a>:</said><p><blockquote><i> If metered pricing were about "fairness," carriers would offer the nation's grandmothers a $5 a month tier that accurately reflected her twice weekly, several megabyte browsing of the Weather Channel website.</i></blockquote><br><br>The first packet is the most expensive one to deliver, because you have to have all of the necessary underlying infrastructure in place to get it there.<br> </p></div>You hit the nail on the head.  The connection itself has a fixed cost regardless of what the actual usage (be it total data or average bitrate) is.  Our electric bill costs us $15/mo before we use a single kWh, just for the connection to the grid.<br><br>In a fair system, Grandma wouldn't be paying $44.95/mo, but it's equally insane to think that she should be paying $5/mo.  Time Warner's tiered option ($5 lousy dollars off your bill for a pathetic 5GB cap) is a blatant rip off, but the point here isn't to save 95% of their customers money.  It's to monetize the 95%+ percentile of customers that use the lion's share of the available network capacity.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:44:27 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27921815</link>
<description><![CDATA[elefante72 posted : I might agree, but hasn't Comcast kept the same cap for years?  I mean if that is the case, then the D3 upgrade didn't make any bit of difference?<br><br>In my neck of the woods, Time Warner nor FIOS have caps and both stream at max rates all the time, especially FIOS.  And I only pay $110 for 50/25 and extreme.  I think that is perfectly reasonable, and I use about 200-400GB a month (depending upon the kids streaming habits).  I would not be happy in a capped world.<br><br>What they have to worry about is simple:  I drop cable and do only internet.  Now I use 600-700GB a month because streaming becomes the only method for getting video.  Right now outside of broadcast only 5-10% of the viewing comes from cable.  Wife has finally given me the go-ahead to drop cable and save $50/mo.  <br><br>Also infrastructure costs are often shared w/ the other services (most people actually run TV), so in that case outside the HSI equipment costs, baked into the cost of cable and phone are infrastructure costs.<br><br>As we know transit costs (if they have any) --look @ CDN have been plummeting.<br><br>So the cost is clearly going down, so why does the price go up every year?  Profit, nothing more, nothing less.  I don't blame them, they can get away with it for now.<br><br>If too many people start dropping cable, then it will start eating into their margins because equipment was sized for distributing cable too.  Phone cost is minimal.... That is the balancing act, keeping you signed up for the triple play....]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:37:30 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27921682</link>
<description><![CDATA[MovieLover76 posted : It's news because a cable lobbyist admitted it, and it's a huge accomplishment that the opposition had so much proof the network congestion was a farce that they finally had to come clean and admit it. <br><br>Of course they just switched to a new argument, but that argument is even weaker in my opinion.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:07:22 EDT</pubDate>
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<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Yeah-lets-just-ignore-the-access-charges-27921632</link>
<description><![CDATA[espaeth posted : <blockquote><i> If metered pricing were about "fairness," carriers would offer the nation's grandmothers a $5 a month tier that accurately reflected her twice weekly, several megabyte browsing of the Weather Channel website.</i></blockquote><br><br>The first packet is the most expensive one to deliver, because you have to have all of the necessary underlying infrastructure in place to get it there.<br><br>The key problem is trying to time your technology refresh cycle so that it lines up with the next generation of available technology so that you get the most "bang for your buck" when you purchase new hardware for replacement or expansion.<br><br>Data caps are an imperfect system to try and shape demand into something that meets that refresh cycle.  It's been pretty clear for years that caps are about the business model, not congestion.   <br><br>We had this whole discussion on this site in 2008/9 when there was news every freaking day about the Comcast network management system.   This isn't news.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 14:57:09 EDT</pubDate>
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