Lithium-Ion Batteries Possible Culprit in Dreamliner

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SparkChaser Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA kudos:3 Reviews: ·Verizon FiOS	Lithium-Ion Batteries Possible Culprit in Dreamliner Lithium-Ion Batteries Emerge as Possible Culprit in Dreamliner Incidents Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) officials grounded Boeing's high-tech Dreamliner after battery electrolytes reportedly leaked from a lithium-ion battery onboard an All Nippon Airways flight on Wednesday. The liquid reportedly traveled through an electrical room floor to the outside of the aircraft, leaving burn marks around damaged areas. The latest incident followed on the heels of two battery-related problems encountered on Japan Airlines flights and another on a United flight earlier this month. Those incidents happened in parallel with multiple other episodes, including two fuel leaks. Since July, the 787 has also encountered a damaged cockpit window, an oil leak, and two cracked engines, according to multiple news reports. »www.designnews.com/document.asp?···=article -- -- -- "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-18 09:31:44 ·
b10010011 Whats a Posting tag? join:2004-09-07 Bellingham, WA Reviews: ·Comcast Formerl..	I can't believe the FAA allow them to be used in a plane. I do not think passengers are allowed to check anything with a Li-Ion battery just in case it starts on fire. -- Bellingham Scanner Kicks Ass! »bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-18 18:14:30 ·
Subaru 1-3-2-4 Premium join:2001-05-31 Greenwich, CT	Yep.. all shipments of Lithium-Ion has to be ground service only.. Makes me wonder why they thought it was ok for the plane.. I'm curious what triggered it however.
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-18 19:56:09 ·
lutful ... of ideas Premium join:2005-06-16 Ottawa, ON Reviews: ·TekSavvy DSL	reply to SparkChaser What happens is that metallic lithium deposits on one of the electrodes during over-charge and then explodes when liquid electrolyte becomes too warm due to hot environment and/or over-discharge. Evidence is pointing to prior overcharging ... "the battery received voltage in excess of its design limits" »www.twinsburgbulletin.com/ap%20f···87-fires I recall this happened with a Chevy Volt battery which caught fire days after it was overcharged ... during safety testing. LiFeSO4 and even Li-polymer batteries are safer for vehicles. P.S. A typical airplane will have hundreds of lithium-ion batteries on-board inside phones, laptops, cameras etc. But of course they are small and usually incorporate smart charging ICs.
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-18 21:06:50 ·

TA63 ST215W Premium,MVM join:2000-11-23 there kudos:2	I believe the Volt battery fire was due to mechanical damage from a crash test. -- The talented hawk speaks French.
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-18 22:09:49 ·
aurgathor join:2002-12-01 Lynnwood, WA kudos:1	reply to lutful said by lutful: P.S. A typical airplane will have hundreds of lithium-ion batteries on-board inside phones, laptops, cameras etc. But of course they are small and usually incorporate smart charging ICs. I think the majority of Li-ion mishaps happen during either heavy charging or overcharging, or during heavy discharging. Anything checked in is probably not charging, and I assume that most devices are either turned off, hibernating, or at least in sleep mode, so barring some other failure causing a short, possibly even internal to the battery, heavy discharging is highly unlikely. Personally, I think major Li-ion batteries should be put in a stainless steel enclosure -- should they leak or catch fire, the enclosure would at least localize and contain the mishap. -- Wacky Races 2012!
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-18 23:57:14 ·
b10010011 Whats a Posting tag? join:2004-09-07 Bellingham, WA Reviews: ·Comcast Formerl..	reply to lutful Manufacturing defects in the film causes the cells to break down and they can catch fire without warning. The company I work for did some long term tests on Li-Ion batteries a few years ago to see if they were a viable replacement for SLA types in UPS's. They ran fine for months, then one night they just let go and caused a major fire. -- Bellingham Scanner Kicks Ass! »bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-19 00:15:31 ·
mackey join:2007-08-20 kudos:3	reply to b10010011 said by b10010011: I do not think passengers are allowed to check anything with a Li-Ion battery just in case it starts on fire. Not true, I check stuff with Li-Ion batteries all the time. While you cannot check loose batteries, batteries that are installed in devices are fine and loose batteries may be carried on. »safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html said by Subaru: Yep.. all shipments of Lithium-Ion has to be ground service only.. Also not true. Small quantities of small batteries (<20Wh/cell and <100Wh/pack, and total weight of all batteries in the shipment <2.5Kg) are fine. Bigger or a larger quantity is ok with proper labeling and a Dangerous Goods contract. »www.ups.com/media/news/en/pack_batteries.pdf /M
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-19 06:32:32 ·
daveinpoway Premium join:2006-07-03 Poway, CA kudos:2 1 edit	I just looked at the Lithium-Ion battery pack (11.1V/2.2A/23 W) for my Acer Aspire 1 netbook- it is marked "Not dangerous for transportation".
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-20 01:57:37 ·
Subaru 1-3-2-4 Premium join:2001-05-31 Greenwich, CT	reply to SparkChaser I would not trust it period
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-20 04:49:59 ·
SparkChaser Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA kudos:3 Reviews: ·Verizon FiOS	reply to SparkChaser Re: Lithium-Ion Batteries More info Trial by fire: Boeing should have chosen a safer type of lithium-ion battery chemistry for its 787 quote: Boeing did not choose the safest battery type. The 787’s batteries use a material known as lithium cobalt oxide (LCO), which imparts excellent energy density. However, there are known LCO safety concerns, most notably that the material does not resist overheating well. Once started, Li-ion fires typically generate oxygen and are very difficult to extinguish: The first 787 battery blaze took 40 minutes to snuff out, injured one firefighter, and damaged the airplane’s equipment bay.Boeing should switch to a safer cathode material. In choosing LCO, Boeing eschewed safer alternatives such as lithium iron phosphate (LFP). Even when overcharged, LFP changes only slightly in structure, preventing oxygen release and resisting thermal runaway. »www2.electronicproducts.com/Tria···tml.aspx -- -- -- "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-24 12:52:41 ·
liionblows @tigspecialty.com	Just read in the local paper that in 2006 a whole building burned down when they were testing Li-ion batteries. »seattletimes.com/html/businesste···xml.html
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-24 17:19:26 ·
SparkChaser Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA kudos:3 Reviews: ·Verizon FiOS	said by liionblows : Just read in the local paper that in 2006 a whole building burned down when they were testing Li-ion batteries. »seattletimes.com/html/businesste···xml.html Thanks for that link. I confess, I have no experience with these batteries, just posting what I get. I've played around with a couple of Li-Poly and they are great but they scare me. These are small so any fire is containable -- -- -- "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-24 17:25:37 ·
aurgathor join:2002-12-01 Lynnwood, WA kudos:1 1 edit	I have several friends who works at Boeing, so I guess I have to hit them up on this. I don't know a whole lot about Li-ion either, but according this battery university page, Boeing definitely went with the highest capacity variant. And that's probably not the smartest idea in an application where safety is paramount. Wonder if going with LCO was primarily an engineer, project manager, joint, or 'forced' joint decision. -- Wacky Races 2012!
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-24 22:10:27 ·
SparkChaser Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA kudos:3	Yeah, my brother in law works at the Philly plant. He travels out your way often. I have to ask him what he knows. (may be after a couple of beers )
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-25 07:49:03 ·
b10010011 Whats a Posting tag? join:2004-09-07 Bellingham, WA Reviews: ·Comcast Formerl..	reply to liionblows said by liionblows : Just read in the local paper that in 2006 a whole building burned down when they were testing Li-ion batteries. »seattletimes.com/html/businesste···xml.html OMG they are buying Yuasa or as we used to call them Youasshole batteries! We dumped them as a vendor of SLA batteries a long time ago because they were crap. -- Bellingham Scanner Kicks Ass! »bhamscanner.kicks-ass.org/
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-25 10:22:45 ·
aurgathor join:2002-12-01 Lynnwood, WA kudos:1	But they were cheap, right?
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-25 11:05:24 ·
lutful ... of ideas Premium join:2005-06-16 Ottawa, ON Reviews: ·TekSavvy DSL	reply to SparkChaser said by SparkChaser: I've played around with a couple of Li-Poly and they are great but they scare me. These are small so any fire is containable Unfortunately even the smallest li-poly or li-ion battery could create a really intense molten blob of lithium which can start a fire on some other stuff. »www.luxresearchinc.com/news-and-···148.html - Boeing did not choose the safest battery type - Boeing should switch to a safer cathode material - Regulatory changes should be expected P.S. My cousin, who ran a small solar/LED business back home, recently died when his laptop started a fire to his bedding/clothing etc. Mom says he was depressed (wife left him with son, lost day job, etc) so it is possible that he was suicidal but most probably he just fell asleep. Photo of his laptop here: »ns.bdnews24.com/details.php?id=233859&cid=2
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-25 19:17:59 ·
SparkChaser Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA kudos:3 Reviews: ·Verizon FiOS	reply to SparkChaser Were the Boeing 787 Batteries Cooled Properly? Okay the other other shoe fell. Cooling or not??? "It's a no-brainer," Elton Cairns, a professor of chemical engineering at the University of California and a nationally known battery expert, told us. "If they used a cobalt oxide chemistry, then the battery should use a cooling system." »www.designnews.com/document.asp?···=article -- -- -- "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-28 10:05:57 ·
lutful ... of ideas Premium join:2005-06-16 Ottawa, ON Reviews: ·TekSavvy DSL	said by SparkChaser: Cooling or not??? The answer seems clear from observations in the 2nd page of this excellent article: Chevy Volt, for example, employs liquid coolant that circulates through 1-mm thick channels machined into 144 metal plates ... Prius PHV plug-in hybrid uses specialized fans, intake ducts, and 42 temperature sensors to actively monitor and cool its lithium-ion battery. Lithium will react violently with any moisture/water content in a liquid coolant and the system will have more weight. So I think the Prius solution is better for airplanes since they can also make use of cold outside air.
	to forum · permalink · 2013-01-28 10:56:23 ·

Technical > Electronics > Lithium-Ion Batteries Possible Culprit in Dreamliner

Re: Lithium-Ion Batteries More info

Were the Boeing 787 Batteries Cooled Properly?