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cymraeg
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join:2011-06-07
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cymraeg

Premium Member

[PvP] PVP in 5.2 and Beyond

Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Change is coming to PvP gear in the relatively near future, and we wanted to provide a not-so-brief update on the improvements we’re planning, while pulling the curtain aside a bit so you can see the thought processes that motivated the coming changes. We also thought this would also be a great time to get the World of Warcraft PvP community involved in the discussion.

The Challenges
There are a few main issues that we’re working to address within the next couple of patches:

Early Advantage
Currently, it’s very common for players that have a head start at the start of the season to earn the best gear quickly and gain a dominating position on the ladder with a very high Match Making Rating (MMR). It’s then pretty common for those players to only participate on the ladder in a minimal way before reaping their rewards at the very end of the season. That’s not particularly good for competition, and we don’t think that it’s a very fun way for a competitive ladder to work. We would like to see the ladder remain active, and for high ranking players to earn their positions throughout the season, instead of just blitzing early and camping a spot above a certain threshold.

Mid-season Start
Players getting into PvP mid-season face a very significant challenge to gear up and become competitive because players that started earlier in the season are so far ahead in terms of gear. We want to make it more reasonable for a player to join in on organized PvP mid-season, while still rewarding the commitment of players that have remained invested in PvP throughout the season.

Rating Requirements
The current rating requirements on PvP gear create an artificially sharp division between players over 2200 rating and those below that rating threshold, which is unduly difficult to cross. We’d prefer that teams progress up the ladder on a curve against gradually more difficult opponents, instead of running into a wall at a certain rating.

Gear Advantage
Over time, the gap in power between Honor and Conquest PvP items has widened. This happened, in part, because it’s necessary for us to preserve the balance in power between PvP and PvE gear so that one doesn’t become the most obvious path to victory for the other. Right now, there are four tiers of PvE items, but only two tiers of PvP items. To keep Honor items from being the best choice for entry into PvE, they needed to have a lower item level than equivalent Raid Finder items. At the same time, Conquest gear still needs to be better for PvP than Heroic raid items, which puts it way over on the opposite end of the power scale from its Honor counterpart. While there are items that bridge the gap between Raid Finder and Heroic Raid loot, there really haven’t been any PvP items to bridge the gap between Honor and Conquest gear. We plan to solve that problem by introducing new tiers of PvP items, changing which currencies it takes to buy items and when, and by making PvP weapons more readily available in general.

Flexibility
While the item upgrade system has the benefit of allowing players that have “finished” their PvP set to continue to progress their character’s power, because there’s built-in pressure to continue upgrading their main set, it also means that players don’t always feel comfortable spending those points on alternate sets of gear for different specs (though it’s worth mentioning that the upgrade system will be disabled for patch 5.2). We’d like to make it easier for players in this position to experiment with alternate specs and stats.

Moving Forward
Meeting these challenges will mean that some changes are coming to MMR, PvP gear, and how gear is earned and paid for:

Team Rating Inflation
As we’ve mentioned previously, we want to see the ladder rankings decided toward the end of a season, and not a foregone conclusion dictated by what happens at the start. As discussed in the PvP in Mists of Pandaria Dev Watercooler, as of patch 5.2 Team Rating will gradually increase as players participate in PvP over the course of the season. We expect the new system to help ensure that the ladder remains active at all ratings and that the competition stays fierce from start to finish.

Gear Changes
To accomplish the goals of making PvP more accessible and less punishing, gearing more consistent and flexible, and flattening the power curve out over the course of a season, there are some significant changes in the works:
2200 rating requirements removed from all PvP gear. (5.2)
Gear will be available in four tiers:
Dreadful Gladiator’s gear will be crafted. (5.2)
Malevolent Gladiator’s gear, including weapons, will be purchased with Honor Points. (5.2)
New tier of PvP items: Tyrannical Gladiator’s gear will be purchased with Conquest Points. (5.2)
Tyrannical Gladiator’s gear can be purchased for Honor after 27000 Conquest Points are earned for the season. (5.3)
Elite Tyrannical Gladiator’s gear can only be purchased with Conquest Points after 27,000 Conquest Points have been earned for the season. (5.2)

The 2200 rating requirements on gear will be removed in patch 5.2, and when that happens, the only barrier to acquiring top of the line Elite gear will be the 27,000 Conquest Point seasonal currency requirement. While highly rated players will still earn gear more quickly, there won’t be an invisible wall to progression at 2200 rating.

As of patch 5.3, patches that don’t include the start of a new season will offer players the opportunity to purchase Conquest Point weapons without first meeting the seasonal currency requirement for them. We’re relaxing these restrictions because, by the mid-point of the season, the restriction has served its purpose and is no longer necessary. It’s worth noting here that the 27,000 Conquest Points earned requirement must always be met to buy Elite armor and weapons in every season.

In terms of relative power, we’re tuning the item levels, PvP Power, and Resilience on the new set of PvP items so that the difference between Malevolent and Elite Tyrannical Gladiator’s gear is similar to the relationship between this season’s Dreadful and Malevolent Gladiator’s gear. This helps accomplish the goal of smoothing out the power curve by adding a tier in the middle of the PvP gear spectrum. Also, to add choices and flexibility, once the seasonal currency requirement is met, players will have the option to purchase Tyrannical pieces for Honor, which should allow players to more easily experiment with alternate stat loadouts and specs.

Mid-Season Catch Up
Players who are starting their journey into PvP mid-season start significantly behind the gearing curve. While we want to avoid invalidating the effort of players that have competed for the whole season, we agree with the feedback we’ve received that the starting gap is too large, so a new Conquest Point catch-up cap will be implemented using the following formula:

(Current week of the season) * 1000 – (Conquest earned thus far this season)

Here are some examples of how this will work:

Player A is starting PvP for the first time in week 10 of the season, and hasn’t earned any Conquest Points at all that season. He will have an additional cap of 10,000 points added to his normal weekly rating based cap.

Player B has already earned 5,000 Conquest Points by week 10, so she would have an additional cap of 5,000 points added to her normal weekly rating based cap.

Player C has been playing all season long, and has earned more than 10,000 Conquest Points by week 10. He only has the normal weekly cap to work with (but should already be on their way to being well geared).

If a player “redeems” their catch up cap by earning all those points, then they’ll begin the next week at their normal weekly rating based cap. Should they miss more weeks, then the catch up cap accrues again.

So, to sum up the planned changes for Patch 5.2:
Rating requirements will be removed from PvP gear.
Malevolent Gladiator’s gear, including weapons, will be available for purchase with Honor Points.
A new tier of Conquest Point gear will be added that becomes available once 27000 Conquest Points have been earned for the season.
Team Rating will gradually increase during the season for teams and players that continue to compete in PvP. This system is explained in the Mists of Pandaria PvP Dev Watercooler.

And here are the specific changes that are planned to hit in Patch 5.3:
In patches that don’t include a new season (including patch 5.3), the seasonal currency requirement of 27,000 Conquest Points earned will be lifted from weapons. The seasonal currency requirement must always be met to purchase Elite items, though.
Once the seasonal currency requirement is met, players will be able to purchase Tyrannical Gladiator’s gear with Honor Points.
The Conquest Point catch up cap will be introduced.

Conclusions
Overall, we expect that these changes will create a more active and competitive PvP environment, narrow the gear gap between the highest rated players and those still working their way up the ladder, and open the door for more experimentation in terms of class or spec.
We look forward to hearing your opinions and feedback on these upcoming changes!
cymraeg

cymraeg

Premium Member

Brilliant change IMO, now late comers and good players that cant find a decent partner can earn the gear they need to compete with the ratings campers, good job Blizz.

Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI

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As someone who was very much into PvP, I can tell you that I like these changes. I was a casual player, and if I fire up WoW again, it is good to know I will be able to gear up and compete with others.

Now I just need to get the desire back to play again.

Eumaeus
join:2009-12-10
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What fantastic changes! Currently the gear divide and total lack of catchup mechanisms makes it virtually impossible to start pvp'ing with a new character. Even if you spent the time to get full dreadful (even upgraded) you'd be hard pressed to compete with mostly full-malev (especially with weapon) people who have hovered around 1300-1500 rating all season.

Phantasee
join:2009-08-27
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Awesome for a bg scrub like me!

Goggalor
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said by Eumaeus:

What fantastic changes! Currently the gear divide and total lack of catchup mechanisms makes it virtually impossible to start pvp'ing with a new character. Even if you spent the time to get full dreadful (even upgraded) you'd be hard pressed to compete with mostly full-malev (especially with weapon) people who have hovered around 1300-1500 rating all season.

Exactly! This is where I am at, considering that I started two months into the season. Having done arenas with you, Eumaeus, it is painfully obvious when we are outgeared by people. I don't mind being outplayed, but being outgeared only just is not fun.
o2cool8
join:2002-04-19
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So basically come 5.2, you now need 27,000 points to buy the weapon with conquest(instead of 7200 currently), and if you don't get the weapon by patch 5.3, you can then buy it without the 27,000 conquest restriction.

So assuming you don't raise your weekly cap, your looking at 15 weeks OR patch 5.3 to pick up your conquest weapon...Am I reading this correctly?

Eumaeus
join:2009-12-10
Seattle, WA

Eumaeus

Member

o2 - you need 27,000 for the elite weapon. the regular weapon will be purchaseable as soon as you can afford its cost.

once you have 27,000 points you can buy non-elite arena gear for honor - this is intended to allow people to offspec pvp.

also, the current malevolent weapon will be available via honor, which was not the case before.

Goggalor
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Goggalor

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said by Eumaeus:

o2 - you need 27,000 for the elite Tyrannical weapon and gear. The regular Tyrannical weapon will be purchaseable, with conquest points, as soon as you can afford its cost.

Once you have 27,000 points, you can buy non-elite Tyrannical gear for honor - this is intended to allow people to offspec pvp.

Also, the current Malevolent weapon will be available via honor, which was not the case before.

Just fixed minor points.
Cptbeatstix
join:2011-12-21
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People will complain now that PvP is too easy to gain gear from. Us PvE people are now going to see more people in PvP gear in LFR and Heroics since Dreadful is going to be crafted. But PVP wise this is a positive move. I remember doing Arena in Cata about 3 weeks after the season hit, and was trying to figure out why my rogue was getting hammered. Come to find out, our 0 rated team was going against 2100 rated teams......Arena kind of lost its special thing after wrath. But would be fun to get back into it.

Eumaeus
join:2009-12-10
Seattle, WA

Eumaeus

Member

Don't forget though that aside from socket bonuses, pvp gear is equivalent to pve gear at same ilvl. The pvp power/resilience does not have a cost on the item's budget. On that note, socket bonuses won't be make or break in the LFR setting.

This really won't make PvP gear more easy to attain except for the elite versions of the gear. While some may complain that less talented players can get the elite sets than before, it will still take longer and they still shouldn't have trouble beating an inferior player. Having a set point where your gear suddenly becomes instantly far better was a poor design. 2175 teams should not feel substantially weaker than 2200 teams and that 498 weapon alone can have that impact.

Goggalor
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join:2009-06-09
Your Mind!

Goggalor

Premium Member

said by Eumaeus:

Don't forget though that aside from socket bonuses, pvp gear is equivalent to pve gear at same ilvl. The pvp power/resilience does not have a cost on the item's budget. On that note, socket bonuses won't be make or break in the LFR setting.

This really won't make PvP gear more easy to attain except for the elite versions of the gear. While some may complain that less talented players can get the elite sets than before, it will still take longer and they still shouldn't have trouble beating an inferior player. Having a set point where your gear suddenly becomes instantly far better was a poor design. 2175 teams should not feel substantially weaker than 2200 teams and that 498 weapon alone can have that impact.

Well, PvP gear will usually be inferior to PvE gear because of the gems used/socket bonuses. Right now, for warriors, the best stat to gem for, in PvP, is resilience, which does zero for a player in a PvE setting (the same as PvP power).

Eumaeus
join:2009-12-10
Seattle, WA

Eumaeus

Member

Seems most classes (especially those with no immunity mechanic) are putting emphasis on resilience for sockets since they inflated the pvp power on the weapon so much when they increased it.

A lot of people choose to get and use PvP gear gemmed/enchanted for PvE as filler for missing slots. I very recently replaced my malevolent shoulders from my PvE set and was able to re-gem it for arena.

I really think they're putting far too much emphasis on the entire topic of using pve gear in pvp and vice versa. It's good that they're attempting to balance it this expansion, but you can have too much of a good thing.

They were so desperate to ensure that the t1 weapon was better than heroic PvE weapons that they greatly buffed it earlier this expac. This was done in the midst of burst dps being a leading problem in arenas.

Now what percent of people were really running around with heroic PvE weapons at the time? Some, sure. But was that the major problem with arenas at the time - nah. They were just so obsessive over the no pvp-pve gear crossover that they worsened the burst damage problem.
Cptbeatstix
join:2011-12-21
Carrollton, TX

Cptbeatstix

Member

said by Eumaeus:

Now what percent of people were really running around with heroic PvE weapons at the time? Some, sure. But was that the major problem with arenas at the time - nah. They were just so obsessive over the no pvp-pve gear crossover that they worsened the burst damage problem.

Partially correct, this depends highly on your server really. On Mal'Ganis, you see more people with the Sha weapons because of the +500 to whatever stat gem. PvP gear is great for fillers, but you lose necessary stats like hit and expertise. I don't use the PvP stuff personally. Well, I do use the helm since head piece for leather agi and a biotch to get. But aside from that I just use the 450 quest gear and 437 stuff.

Snuffbox
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join:2011-04-15
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said by Cptbeatstix:

People will complain now that PvP is too easy to gain gear from.

Apples and Oranges.
Goal of PvP - Rating.
Goal of PvE - Gear.

PvPing in PvE gear - Not Competitive
Raiding in PvP gear - Not Competitive
said by Cptbeatstix:

I remember doing Arena in Cata about 3 weeks after the season hit, and was trying to figure out why my rogue was getting hammered. Come to find out, our 0 rated team was going against 2100 rated teams

MMR reset in Cata, so you played people with a 2100 MMR to your 0 rated team. MMR =/= Team Rating. Early in the season, if you win a bunch of consecutive games it's easy to launch your MMR sky high but have a team rating of 1500's. This is what the 5.2 changes are referring to.
said by Cptbeatstix:

Arena kind of lost its special thing after wrath.

... What "special thing" was that?

Eumaeus
join:2009-12-10
Seattle, WA

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Cpt I was more looking at them wanting to avoid using PvE weapons in PvP than vice versa. The T1 weapon being 470 and having less secondary stats made it similar or slightly better than a 463 dungeon weapon. Similarly with the T2 having no Sha socket it'd be far less useful than a 483 LFR weapon.

There's some availability of hit on pvp jewelry since even in pvp you'd want to cap hit for lvl 90's, but you're right that you'd not be close to proper hit/exp for PvE with only pvp gear.

Speaking of leather head pieces - weeks ago I'd used an elder token on Will of the Emperor LFR and got my 476 helm. Later the same evening when we did our guild clear I ended up with the 489 version. Yay wasted gems!
blackthought
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wow i might start playing again..again.
I got into it. Hit the "omg this shyt sucks with crap gear" wall and saw no real hope of advancement especially considering all my old go to healers had stopped playing. Maybe though...just maybe i'll come back for real...maybe...

Bodybagger
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Glad they are doing this... however, it doesn't do anything for being stunned/silenced/CCd until dead. But that is a whole other issue.

If you were to try to cap out conquest points as a fresh 90 in honor gear without the weapon it's basically GG. You cannot do 2s for quickly capping conquest unless you have a fully decked OP class to carry you. So you are stuck with doing BGs and hope you win at least 10 out of a day. Not to mention being 1 shot by everything in the BG the entire time. The change was needed. Also for people who like to do 2s, and/or don't have the time or people for 3s, 5s, or RBGs, being able to finally get the elite gear will be a great change. Someone still has to work for it and not be given welfare loots like LFR.
Cptbeatstix
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Snuff, ARMOR PEN STACKING WARRIOR SMASH!!! That special thing.
o2cool8
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said by cymraeg:

Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

As of patch 5.3, patches that don’t include the start of a new season will offer players the opportunity to purchase Conquest Point weapons without first meeting the seasonal currency requirement for them. We’re relaxing these restrictions because, by the mid-point of the season, the restriction has served its purpose and is no longer necessary. It’s worth noting here that the 27,000 Conquest Points earned requirement must always be met to buy Elite armor and weapons in every season.

This is the part that through me off, since it states that 5.3 will give a player the chance to purchase conquest point weapons with out meeting the seasonal requirement, especially since it says you still need 27k points for elite gear and weapon. I guess they were referring to the 7200 current seasonal total required for the weapon and not 27k.

thanks for the clarification

Eumaeus
join:2009-12-10
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There will be a lot more shared diminishing returns once the patch lands. Hopefully enough to make PvP more fun (especially in smaller group pvp such as 2's).

A warrior resto duo kept me cc'd as feral for what seemed like 45 seconds - enjoyable game design, right? Especially love that doing so required no long cooldowns and could be replicated in less than a minute.

McBrain
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join:2010-05-06
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McBrain

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i watched reckful get chain cc'ed for ages last night on his spriest...he was facing resto/war/spriest atroughly 2.2k rating in EU...they lost after like 35 minutes, lol.

But seriously, that dude is unreal at this game...i've been watching his stream for the past few days and it's silly how cognizant of his surroundings and how short his reaction time is. not to mention, how well he knows strategy and other classes. he literally knows what people are going to do well before they do it...i know you guys will say that a lot of us can predict the flow of an arena match, but theres a difference in mapping it out in your head and executing it to a 170-4 record in 3s and a 3k rating. Reckful is by far my favorite wow personality right now.

edit: sorry for the sloppy writing, this netbook keyboard is tiny and im lying in the bed.

Skittles
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Skittles

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said by McBrain:

Reckful is by far my favorite wow personality right now.

What?...no love for Athene?

McBrain
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McBrain

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i went through a stretch where i liked him...right when he was starting tttt. but i got sick of his personality...he's a grimey looking dude with a god complex who not once showed me why he calls himself the best paladin in the world.

Draiman
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No Swifty love?

Skittles
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always thought he was quite good, guess he just reminded me of a paladin in are guild who could have been the direct inspiration for Athene's personality.....funny guy.

As for other WoW pvpers, I always like watching Swifty (though his sound quality at times is rough) and old school Ming,Neilyo and Akrios.

Draiman
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One of the other things I read was all players are the same level in BG's in 5.2 meaning if you enter the 81-89 bracket as a level 81 when you join a BG it will inflate you to 89 with appropriate stats/abilities so everyone is on an equal level character wise. The only advantage to actually being a higher level is better gear.
Josof
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said by blackthought:

wow i might start playing again..again.
I got into it. Hit the "omg this shyt sucks with crap gear" wall and saw no real hope of advancement especially considering all my old go to healers had stopped playing. Maybe though...just maybe i'll come back for real...maybe...

just come on back already lol.
cymraeg
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KLINDA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Venom14
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glad i'm leveling my dk... time to start the pvp