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jasontaylor

join:2010-11-17
Kensington, MD

1 edit

[HD] Is Verizon lying about HD?

Last night we had to watch the lance armstrong interview in low def. It was extremely painful and I may need to see an eye doctor, as my eyes are still hurting.

I'm sorry if this q is in the faq. But in the threads I just skimmed about Fios' HD channel selection, I'm getting mixed and contradictory data. One set of arguments, which are themselves buried deep in threads with hundreds of unrelated posts, say Fios has trouble paying subscription fees for HD vs. cheaper SD fees. The problem with this argument is that Fios is already by far the most expensive, and charges extra for getting more HD channels, so they just pass along any extra costs, and then some.

The other set of arguments says there is a data limitation on how many hd channels fios can carry. But I was thinking about this. I know fiber can carry a ton of data. According Fios's own marketers, that's supposedly why the PQ is highest on Fios. So the argument also makes little sense to me, unless Verizon is lying.

If I had to make a wild guess, I'd guess that neither argument is accurate, and that it is actually a mocha limitation, and that they just would need to upgrade their mocha routers to, for instance, use two mocha frequencies instead of 1. Is this crazy guess correct?

Jason Taylor
Daily rant @ »twitter.com/jasontaylor7

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
OWN is not carried in HD on FIOS, not just on FIOS but many other cable networks as well.

The ratings are horrible and discovery has pour half a billion into the new network, yet pulls in audiences less than on tenth of the previous syndicated weekly show.

No cable network has the capacity to carry all the available HD streams so decisions are made to carry the most popular


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:32
reply to jasontaylor
said by jasontaylor:

If I had to make a wild guess, I'd guess that neither argument is accurate, and that it is actually a mocha limitation, and that they just would need to upgrade their mocha routers to, for instance, use two mocha frequencies instead of 1. Is this crazy guess correct?

No. MOCA has nothing to do with the video signal. MOCA is only used for your WAN connection between the ONT and the router and the LAN connection between the router and the STBs.

The routers already use two MOCA frequencies. One for WAN and one for LAN. Neither one has anything to do with video (except VOD).
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.

jasontaylor

join:2010-11-17
Kensington, MD

1 edit
Thanks guys. But is my q really answered? Hmmmm.

Ok, given the lack of a clear answer, perhaps I need to rephrase the q. Warning: this rephrasing is not for the math impaired.

1 HD channel is 4 mbps.
1 fiber optic cable is 26 Tbps.
1 terabit is 1048576 megabits.

Therefore, 26 Tbps / 4 mbps = 26 *1048576 / 4 =6815744 = about 7 million.
Therefore, 1 fiber optic cable can handle 7 million HD channels of data.
Ooops. I messed up. Silly me. I’m such an idiot. I forgot to subtract out my intense 30 Mbps data usage. Ok, so the actual # is (26*1048576-30) / 4 =6.999999 million. That’s a huge difference.

EDIT/COMMENT: The actual HD bandwidth per channel is more like 12-14 Mbps, which changes things by a factor of 3 or so.
Expand your moderator at work


nascar

join:2000-02-28
Verona, NJ
kudos:3
reply to jasontaylor

Re: [HD] Is Verizon lying about HD?

You need to exclude the Fiber since everything else is the weak link. One day, but far from now, Fiber will show its potential. The Fiber cable as opposed to a coaxial cable is the main difference and only for how the TV is broadcast to the home.

Fiber, so far, has been nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Comcast, for example has no disadvantage when it comes to TV. The same Moto devices front end and back end are used. Vz has utilized IP for certain functionality but not for how the TV signal is broadcast to the home(yet). As long as QAM is the method of delivery than only removing SD channels and or compression will lead to more HD channels.

Internet is another matter and then Fiber has the advantage due to how the back end is setup and your in home ONT.

PJL

join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to jasontaylor
said by jasontaylor:

Thanks guys. But is my q really answered? Hmmmm.

Ok, given the lack of a clear answer, perhaps I need to rephrase the q. Warning: this rephrasing is not for the math impaired.

1 HD channel is 4 mbps.
1 fiber optic cable is 26 Tbps.
1 terabit is 1048576 megabits.

Therefore, 26 Tbps / 4 mbps = 26 *1048576 / 4 =6815744 = about 7 million.
Therefore, 1 fiber optic cable can handle 7 million HD channels of data.
Ooops. I messed up. Silly me. I’m such an idiot. I forgot to subtract out my intense 30 Mbps data usage. Ok, so the actual # is (26*1048576-30) / 4 =6.999999 million. That’s a huge difference.

FiOS TV is delivered via QAM channels, so your calculations for fiber capacity are not relevant. The problem is a limitation on the number of available QAM channels, not fiber capacity. Only a certain number of TV channels can be placed on a given QAM channel (and that's usually only two unless the content provider uses low bandwidths that allows combining more than two onto one QAM). Verizon does not further compress content provider streams, but takes advantage of the combining when they can to conserver QAM space. Some newer content (sports subscription, etc.) are being moved to MP4 compression (which is more efficient), but moving all channels to MP4 thus increasing channel capacity requires that all subscribers have the newer 7XXX STBs since the 6XXX STBs cannot decode MP4.
Now if FiOS moved to IP delivery (versus QAM) then fiber capacity would be used, but if it's only one stream per STB tuners in use, then it is a very small amount of traffic.


Thinkdiff
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-07
Bronx, NY
kudos:11
Just to make this point even clearer - FiOS TV utilizes an RF to fiber to RF conversion. At the FiOS headend, they basically run a regular CableTV system that has ~864MHz bandwidth split into 6MHz QAM channels. That RF signal is modulated onto one single wavelength in the fiber and demodulated into RF in your ONT. This is the same technique used by cable companies that run HFC networks (local fiber nodes convert fiber to coax for 200-300 homes), which is pretty much all of them.

The benefit is FiOS used to offer analog TV service, it works with industry standard set top boxes, and it works with QAM tuners and CableCARDs. Verizon didn't have to recreate anything - they can just reuse. The downside is FiOS has the same restrictions/limitations on capacity that cable companies do. The upside is they don't need to waste space on analog or DOCSIS Channels (for cable modem), so they can get away with 2 HD channels per QAM and claim they don't recompress anything.
--
University of Southern California - Fight On!

hubrisnxs

join:2009-12-30
Fountain Valley, CA
kudos:2
QAM is the correct answer, it's still the limiting factor,.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:17

4 edits
reply to jasontaylor
Click for full size
Click for full size
Click for full size
downloadVerizon FIOS···ment.pdf 3,229,017 bytes
Verizon FIOS FTTP deployment PDF
said by jasontaylor:

Ok, given the lack of a clear answer, perhaps I need to rephrase the q. Warning: this rephrasing is not for the math impaired.

1 HD channel is 4 mbps.
1 fiber optic cable is 26 Tbps.
1 terabit is 1048576 megabits.

Therefore, 26 Tbps / 4 mbps = 26 *1048576 / 4 =6815744 = about 7 million.
Therefore, 1 fiber optic cable can handle 7 million HD channels of data.

1 HD channel is a ~12-14 mpbs MPEG2 video stream. 1 SD channel is a ~3.8 mpbs MPEG2 video stream.
1 EIA 256 QAM, 6 Mhz wide, RF cable channel = ~38 mpbs usable data rate.
2-3 HD or 10 SD channels fit on a single 256 QAM RF cable channel.

Verizon FIOS fiber equipment carries a RF cable signal of 860 Mhz. This is on a separate light wave from the xPON data channels used for data.
860 Mhz = ~135 RF cable channels. These RF channels can be 256 QAM, 64 QAM, analog, or something else using a 6 Mhz wide analog carrier signal.
135 channels x 38 mbps = ~5.1 Tbps downstream broadcast data capacity.

135 QAM RF channels x 2 HD streams per QAM = 270 HD channels.
135 QAM RF channels x 3 HD streams per QAM = 405 HD channels.
Of course the actual number of HD channel is less due to the number of SD channels on the system.

To increase the number of channels carried, Verizon could:
1. Upgrade to MPEG4 or better. allows about double the number of HD channels per RF channel.
2. Upgrade RF bandwidth to 1 Ghz, allows for about 20 more RF channels and about 40-60 more HD channels.
3. Increase IPTV offerings beyond VOD, streaming channels only when requested. Possibly unlimited channels.

[edit] Added pics above, taken from the attached PDF.

--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Nice response drew, but how could they increase to 1Ghz ? I thought thats where Moca lived, above 860Mhz?


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:32
said by ITALIAN926:

I thought thats where Moca lived, above 860Mhz?

Indeed. Channel C4 is used for MOCA WAN. It is a 50Mhz frequency band from 875-1025Mhz.
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.


Zero

join:2009-07-01
Collegeville, PA
reply to ITALIAN926
You're right they can't because of MoCA, which is why they didn't start out with a 1GHz plant. Only options 1 and 3 are viable and only option 1 is mature enough to be implemented now.

MURICA

join:2013-01-03
reply to guppy_fish
said by guppy_fish:

OWN is not carried in HD on FIOS, not just on FIOS but many other cable networks as well.

The ratings are horrible and discovery has pour half a billion into the new network, yet pulls in audiences less than on tenth of the previous syndicated weekly show.

No cable network has the capacity to carry all the available HD streams so decisions are made to carry the most popular

This argument doesn't work on Verizon, sorry. They couldn't care less about "popularity." They will add whatever random crap a Verizon exec decides on a whim that needs to be added.

FiOS probably has the highest ratio of crap HD out there. Need I remind you that Verizon is wasting six HD slots on those ".TV" networks that no cable provider will carry; another ten HD slots on those weird Spanish channels that no one has ever heard of before, and another dozen HD slots carrying redundant west coast premium channels on east coast systems and vice versa.

What is that, over 25 HD channel slots Verizon is wasting on random, redundant or low rated bullshit right now?

Also, OWN is carried in HD by everyone else except for DirecTV and Comcast. They are in HD on Dish, AT&T, Time Warner, Cox, Charter, etc. It's far from being a fringe network like the Byron Allen channels are.

knarf829

join:2007-06-02
kudos:1

1 recommendation

You had me until your defense of OWN, which is a nothing vanity channel created to feed one large woman's equally massive ego. I'm glad we don't have it in HD.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:17

2 edits
reply to ITALIAN926
Click for full size
MOCA has several bands. IF the provider is using up to 1 Ghz, they should probably use MOCA band D so it doesn't interfere.

Slide from this presentaion:
»www.mocalliance.org/CEDIA/presen···tion.pdf

Verizon didn't start with 1 Ghz because at the time they launched, the boxes weren't available to do 1 Ghz. It's possible now, but doesn't provide a huge benefit for the costs involved. Especially since all the 1 Ghz capable boxes also do MPEG4.

JackBauer

join:2006-08-24
Schenectady, NY
reply to jasontaylor
Will VZ ever go the full IPTV route? If so, when?

I mean I'm actually surprised they haven't moved more in that direction already...


ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
reply to DrDrew
Dr Drew, they couldnt do that because there are a BILLION 5-1000Mhz coax splitters in the field right now.


nascar

join:2000-02-28
Verona, NJ
kudos:3
reply to JackBauer
In the works...

said by JackBauer:

Will VZ ever go the full IPTV route? If so, when?

I mean I'm actually surprised they haven't moved more in that direction already...



DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:17
reply to ITALIAN926
Click for full size
said by ITALIAN926:

Dr Drew, they couldnt do that because there are a BILLION 5-1000Mhz splitters right now in the field.

That 1000Mhz isn't a hard cut off.

The signal above 1000 Mhz still passes on the majority of 5-1000 Mhz splitters. They just aren't performance tested or rated for a known amount of loss above 1000 Mhz. MOCA equipment was designed with that in mind.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.

jasontaylor

join:2010-11-17
Kensington, MD

2 edits
reply to jasontaylor
Very very nice posts by almost everyone. I'm very thankful. My rexpectations were high, then let down by the 1st post, and then surpassed by wide margin with that internal verizon gif. I guess, correct my quick skimming please, but the short answer is that yes, verizon was pulling the wool over my eyes again, all this pq stuff is bs, since the fiber to the curb is irrelevant, with the coax network being the real bottleneck. I should have known, since, if it is at all possible I'm being duped, it has to be the case that I'm being duped, since I'm extra gullible. (Jason's law.) (I'm selling my livestrong tees on ebay as we speak. I was the 2nd last person to get the news.) So it is sorta moca actually since that's related. (I was meaning by moca=retarded coax network, including qam crap, since they interfere and both take bandwidth anyways.)

I'll nver understand any of this. Gave up long time ago. But, if I try, just to please those kind enough to respond to my post, I'm still confused. I mean, if it were me, and I were verizon's presdent, I'd ditch the coax bs network, all this QAM BS, all this moca bs, and just allow fiber into the home, so we have each set top box with a pure IP TV. Unlimited boxes, no problems with any limits, no bs. High enders would pay $$$ to get everything in HD. No mess. Perhaps I'd watch japanese anima in hd all night long. Simple. VZ rakes in $$$$. CEO smokes cigars, orders hokkers, pizza, retires to island, pays off fat divident, etc., everyones happy and his hokkars can eat.

Clearly I'm an idiot, since they aren't doing that. Please explain. What am i missing. Are onts just too $$$?

Jason


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:17

3 edits
Verizon FIOS is using as much existing end user equipment and known distribution methods as they can. Just rolling out fiber last mile infrastructure was expensive. Had they redesigned and waited for everything else to catch up would've guaranteed FIOS DOA.

Fiber networks IN the home is still almost non existent. Ethernet is picking up but still way less than 25% of homes. More than 75% of homes have coax networks in home.

The boxes and coax cable was a known system with equipment and technicians available at the time of launch to support it. The boxes and coax can still handle WAY more channels then what Verizon sends out.

Just changing from broadcast to a IPTV system can work with the same end user equipment and allow for more channels. There is no reason why every channel has to be broadcast into the pipe at the same time like FIOS and much of Cable currently does. Only the channels watched need be transported but smart clients are needed to do that.

IPTV isn't quite ready to supplant broadcast TV. Almost... but not quite. Content owners are finally warming up to smart TVs, streaming video, and high speed internet in a large percentage of places.

Coax isn't the real bottleneck. Legacy hardware configurations and content owner expectations are. Given enough time and money, both will change
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.

knarf829

join:2007-06-02
kudos:1
reply to jasontaylor
said by jasontaylor:

Clearly I'm an idiot, since they aren't doing that. Please explain. What am i missing. Are onts just too $$$?

QAM is the industry standard, and it allows compatibility with 3rd party products (TiVo, Windows Media, etc) for those of us who are unsatisfied with the garbage hardware cable companies lease to the masses.


ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to jasontaylor
You dont need fiber in the home, or cat5, you just need the video signals to be delivered over IP, then the possibilities are endless, and coax within the home would be AOK.

DrDrew, I dont see any way that Dblock spectrum could be used. 5-900Mhz splitters dont even pass Moca properly with the current setup, Ive removed about 1000 of them in my life on installs.

nowayout

join:2009-06-22
Allentown, PA

1 edit
reply to jasontaylor
Verizon has started muxing more channels at 3:1. They're not "compressing" the channels per se, but the channels they're pairing 3:1 were already being delivered at lower bitrates (12mbps), making the negative side-effects mostly negligible. Until this past year or so they were fitting them at 2:1 regardless. So this has given them more room to play with.

The .tv channels are 3:1, for example. As well as most or all of the movie channels.

The bottom line is, HD channels additions are 95% about contracts and 5% demand. There are very few if any highly-rated channels left, so their motivation is small to put any rush behind anything at this point, even with some room to spare.

JackBauer

join:2006-08-24
Schenectady, NY
reply to nascar
said by nascar:

In the works...

But hasn't it been "in the works" almost since year 1?

I mean it has always been a part of their multi-generation network plan, and we've heard no hints on any progress.

knarf829

join:2007-06-02
kudos:1
I thought we had it on pretty good authority (JeepMatt's insiders, IIRC) that IP was never going to happen and the plan had changed to MPEG4.

nowayout

join:2009-06-22
Allentown, PA
Many of the new channels in the sports/language packages are mpeg4, so they weren't incorrect. They're just apparently not going to transition existing channels to mpeg4 for the time being.

jasontaylor

join:2010-11-17
Kensington, MD
reply to knarf829
"QAM is the industry standard"

Retarded standards are made to be improved.

Never once in my life have i seen a cable company lift a finger to help 3rd party people store or copy tv shows or movies. Why would they start caring now? Anyway, potential problem with your reasoning (pls correct me if I'm mistaken): there's nothing stopping an ONT set top box from outputting whatever tivo et al want, including qam crap, mpeg2+, hdmi, vga, etc.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:17
reply to ITALIAN926
said by ITALIAN926:

5-900Mhz splitters dont even pass Moca properly with the current setup, Ive removed about 1000 of them in my life on installs.

I haven't seen any NEW 900Mhz splitters in 10 years. Alot of the ones I saw and replaced gave me issues with 860mhz signals.

The 1000 Mhz splitters I've put in haven't given me issues with MOCA.

I've definitely seen a quality difference between what was rated 900 Mhz and what is now rated 1000 Mhz, more than the 100 Mhz rating difference would explain. Full soldered backs, internal circuit boards, and power blocking capacitors make a difference.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.