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Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Metatron2008

Re: Seriously? PS4 to use AMD cpu???

The PS3 releasing in 2006 at $600 is way different then 2013/14. I can almost bet the majority of people that bought those brand new, did so on their trusty credit cards.

Personally, I think they're nuts if they release these new systems at that price range or even higher.

The economy just aint the same as it once was. Time will tell.


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to C0deZer0

Oh, cool at least it can be done. Really not surprised its being done by valve of all companies, they are ballin.. They take more risks than most would.



C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ

said by me1212:

Oh, cool at least it can be done. Really not surprised its being done by valve of all companies, they are ballin.. They take more risks than most would.

I know there are "tech demo" companies out there - namely, id and Crytek.

But as far as making advancements that benefit the game dev and the gamers at large, I pretty much look to Epic and VALVe to really make good, optimized engines. Really wish there were more that took to their examples.

It was pretty much Epic who grunted through the most to demonstrate that fast and fluid coding on the PS3 is possible, while everyone else was struggling... and VALVe more or less kind of grunted through it afterward. At first they bashed Sony and the PS3 for their infamously convoluted SDK, but muddled through it after the frustrations in trying to get Orange Box on console to get updates like the PC releases traditionally got. It was then an unorthodox move of open-ness from Sony that got them the lead build of a console Portal 2, since VALVe got the permits to update and add in content to the PS3 copy the same way that they could update it on PC.
--
Because, f*ck Sony

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

I'm really not surprised by that, epic and valve are two hands down amazing developers. Heck even bethesda hasn't grunted through the ps3's backasswards coding to put out the skyrim expansions. I'm not surprised id and crytek put out tech demos that can do it, but only game published by beth can use id's engines so in my mind they are a moot point at this point in time. Cry tech and epic engines may be licensed out and put real support for moar cores on games but that requires people license the engines from epic and valve, which if the old ones work well enough a lot of companies wouldnt put out the money for new ones.



Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state
reply to C0deZer0

Not only could they update, Sony let Valve attach some form of Steam to their PS3 games, something microsoft would never do.



C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ
reply to me1212

Yea, I'm stunned to read about the dev blogs on how Bethesda still can't figure out how to solve the massive memory leak that has plagued the engine since Fallout, and seems to have been magnified further with Skyrim.

That's been one perpetual gripe from me regarding Sony... they seem to have nobody in their company that knows how to make an SDK worth a damn - especially at launch for a new console. Thankfully some talented devs have been able to muddle through each generation to implement new features that help the dev community at large each generation, but there's still no excuse to make it so ass-poor from the beginning. Seriously, if you were around to pay attention to some of the stuff going on in dev blogs regarding each console generation, You'd swear it was as if Sony was actively trying to screw up as much as possible while still being successful.
--
Because, f*ck Sony



Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state

WTF? You are stunned?? Have you followed Bethesda AT ALL on the pc thru Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, New Vegas, and Skyrim, and notice that while they make excellent, fun games, basically the mod community fixes the holes?

There's no mod community to fix bethesdas issues on the ps3 sadly.



C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ

Yea. I'm stunned any of their games is allowed to pass Sony QA with their epically broken shit.

It's why I refuse to touch a Bethesda-made game. I refuse to pay full price for a game that has less polish and more game-breaking bugs than a typical indie romhack.
--
Because, f*ck Sony


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to C0deZer0

" You'd swear it was as if Sony was actively trying to screw up as much as possible while still being successful."

I am certain they are at this point, if they include the thing that ties each disk to a console to kill to used games market then there will be no doubt left for anyone.



Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3
reply to Metatron2008

I could care less about the hardware behind a console. If it's lacking features I need (ie. plays games, WiFi, etc.), that's when I begin to question my purchase.



C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ

said by Thaler:

I could care less about the hardware behind a console. If it's lacking features I need (ie. plays games, WiFi, etc.), that's when I begin to question my purchase.

And this is why if I was going to own a PS3 at all, it would have to have been a CECHA/B model. Hard drive space doesn't mean much at all, if you can't use it like you want to.
--
Because, f*ck Sony


Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state

Can't you change the hard drive on the early ps3 models anyway?



C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ

said by Metatron2008:

Can't you change the hard drive on the early ps3 models anyway?

Yep. But I won't lie... these launch PS3's are pretty much furnaces... especially if you are a neophyte and insist on never opening it up.

There are dis-assembly guides online with some simple searching on Google. On my 60gig, I ended up replacing the thermal compound because the stock paste was about as effective as bird guano, and the same consistency. Replacing the stock fan in the 60gig for a Talismoon whisper fan helped the noise, and finally replacing the power supply for one from a later, neutered phat helped with the heat.

If I could, and could find the parts, I would seriously entertain replacing the whole heatsink and fan setup (since it literally takes up the bottom third of a phat ps3's mass) for a liquid cooling setup in the same space.

When I salvaged one of my friends' CECHB systems, I found it had a shittier fan in it than was in the 60, so I put that one in there.
--
Because, f*ck Sony


Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3
reply to C0deZer0

said by C0deZer0:

And this is why if I was going to own a PS3 at all, it would have to have been a CECHA/B model. Hard drive space doesn't mean much at all, if you can't use it like you want to.

I only regret that I didn't get into PS3 before Sony did their shenanigans with removing PS2 emulation. That was a feature I really wanted, but wasn't willing to pay the high price at that time.

But, for $200 (hurray sale), a PS3 that function only as a PS3 wasn't bad.


Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state

At the end of the day most ps2 games look terrible on a 50"+ plasma or lcd...



Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3

Did you play many PS2 classics even in the heyday? The graphics to most were pretty laughable even in its own time...yet the gameplay kept us going.



Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state

FFX? Black? The GC and Xbox were much better but in that console generation the PS2's graphics were not bad.

How many people played on 50"+ tvs back then anyway? Or tvs that were not CRTs (Which make SD graphics look better anyway)?



C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ
reply to Metatron2008

said by Metatron2008:

At the end of the day most ps2 games look terrible on a 50"+ plasma or lcd...

Unless you play the games on a BC PS3, or through a dedicated scaler box.

Despite the many promises, in practice many of such boxes vary in quality, and some can be downright terrible, largely because of input lag. Also, some are simply better at processing different resolutions for input sources than others.

A real PS2's video output is infamously bad. That's no big secret. Which in part makes how a compatible PS3's output (especially since firmware 2.40) all the more stunning. However, if you need to hang onto said PS2 for some reason or another (such as those peripherals that simply wouldn't hook up to the PS3), then it would be worth your time to invest in a proper scaler box.
--
Because, f*ck Sony


C0deZer0
Oc'D To Rhythm And Police
Premium
join:2001-10-03
Tempe, AZ
reply to Metatron2008

said by Metatron2008:

FFX? Black? The GC and Xbox were much better but in that console generation the PS2's graphics were not bad.

How many people played on 50"+ tvs back then anyway? Or tvs that were not CRTs (Which make SD graphics look better anyway)?

That's why they make scaler boxes like those reviewed here. Stumbled across that link when I saw a forum thread about someone wanting to buy one to get a PSP's native video output to stretch and fill a TV screen properly, since without some form of modification, a PSP 2k/3k/Go will only output a 1:1 res display of PSP-mode games to the TV, regardless of the cable used.

All told though, that link is pretty exhaustive about trying out all sorts of different scaler boxes and equipment for gaming purposes, with the better ones managing to not only be next-to-no input lag (very important on some games), but also near reference quality graphics and scaling, making everything look proper even on such high-def TV's.

As I said, I can attest from personal experience that even when using the same Component Video cables to the same TV, PS1 & PS2 games played on a PS3 look better than they did on the actual PS2. So at least with my BC-able PS3, there is a benefit to play the older games on the new system on a current-gen TV. Or if you want a solution that doesn't require you to hunt for months on eBay or play Russian roulette at gamestop like I did, get a scaler box.
--
Because, f*ck Sony


Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state

I would just get a ps2 emulator at that point, a USB ps2 controller, and play the DVDs on pc...



I AM
Premium
join:2010-04-11
Ephrata, PA
kudos:4
reply to Subaru

said by Subaru:

said by Ghastlyone:

It must all be about pricing. That's all I can figure.

They must be trying to stay within the ~400 dollar retail range or so.

Yeah.. No one in this market now is going to spend $600+ on a console, they would do more harm then good at a launch at that price.

IDK. Because people line up on launch day and resale them for like 1k+. Defies my logic of those who buy it. Build a PC!


danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Urbandale, IA

said by I AM:

said by Subaru:

said by Ghastlyone:

It must all be about pricing. That's all I can figure.

They must be trying to stay within the ~400 dollar retail range or so.

Yeah.. No one in this market now is going to spend $600+ on a console, they would do more harm then good at a launch at that price.

IDK. Because people line up on launch day and resale them for like 1k+. Defies my logic of those who buy it. Build a PC!

Because there are games that never get released on the PC. Not to mention that generally games with co-op don't allow two people to play on the same PC at the same time. With a console, my daughter and I can play a game together. Maybe that's an option, but I haven't run into any PC games where you can hook up two controllers and play on the same PC. Are there some? Even then, most of the more kid-friendly titles that I've bought for her for the 360 and Wii U don't seem to end up on the PC. PC gaming is a different breed than console gaming. It's more expensive and time-consuming to maintain a current gaming PC than it is (over time) to own a console.

How many times, for instance, since the launch of the 360 would I have needed up upgrade a gaming PC to keep it current to play games the best I possibly could? 7.5 years is a long time. That would be at least several graphics cards updates, and I'd wager that at some point along there I'd have had to upgrade other components as well in order to stay current and have a game run the way the developers intended, and not just the "basic minimum" that's listed on the box. I'd guess at that point it would be almost, if not completely, an entirely new PC.

That's not to say I'd buy a launch console at inflated prices just to get one more quickly. But not everyone wants to game on a PC, so I can see why someone, if they were really eager to play those launch titles and had the cash to burn, would be willing to do so. Some people just prefer consoles. Your question is sort of like asking why someone would get hamburgers instead of tacos. If you don't like tacos, it doesn't matter how much they cost in comparison, or how fresh they are, or how much better *you* think they taste. The person still wants a hamburger.
--
You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

The left 4 dead games have split screen co-op on pc, and if you got CORE 2 DUO/QUAD and an 8800 those can still play most games today at settings comparable to consoles. Not to mention I saw some wiis go for >$2500 when they first game out, woulda been able to build/upgrade a pc plenty with that. Not trying to push pc over console, I like both(granted I've never touched a 360 or ps3 so I can't comment on them just nintendo stuff, dem exclusives and party games) so I use both and want both to succeed.



danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Urbandale, IA

1 recommendation

said by me1212:

The left 4 dead games have split screen co-op on pc, and if you got CORE 2 DUO/QUAD and an 8800 those can still play most games today at settings comparable to consoles. Not to mention I saw some wiis go for >$2500 when they first game out, woulda been able to build/upgrade a pc plenty with that. Not trying to push pc over console, I like both(granted I've never touched a 360 or ps3 so I can't comment on them just nintendo stuff, dem exclusives and party games) so I use both and want both to succeed.

Left 4 Dead games aren't exactly appropriate for seven year olds who want to play Mario Party 8, New Super Mario Bros U, Hello Kitty Seasons, Funky Barn, and Nintendo Land. I appreciate the suggestion, but I think this is the point I'm trying to make. In our house, a lot of the games that get played on the console are games that don't ever make it to the PC.

Some people always like to be first. $2500 is crazy, I agree, but in the end, that PC still wouldn't be a Wii, no matter how much money you threw at it, and if the Wii experience was what that person wanted, the best PC in the world would be irrelevant to them.
--
You're watching Sports Night on CSC so stick around...

me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

Get an emulator and play your games on it.

I get what your saying though, theres a reason they are different. Cause they are different.


sumit9

join:2013-02-26
reply to Metatron2008

PlayStation 3:
Processing Power = 400 GFLOPS.
Total Memory = 256 system + 256 MB graphics = 512 MB
Memory Bandwidth = 22.4 GB/s

PlayStation 4:
Processing Power = 1840 GFLOPS (4.6 Times more powerful than PS3)
Total Memory = 8 GB Unified GDDR5, (16 times more memory)
Memory Bandwidth = 172 GB/s (7.6 Times more bandwidth)

did you expect more compared to old PS3 ? Huh ?



Metatron2008
Premium
join:2008-09-02
united state

Most of that is probably due to the 7970m and 8 gigs gddr5 ram...


me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

yeah the 7970m has slightly more computing power/teraflops a 7850(the 7850 can do 1.76 TFLOPS) and the ps4 has 1.84TFLOPS. Compared to the ancient ps3 its a decent boost.



Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium
join:2004-07-08
united state

True, but I doubt the PS4 GPU will operate at those levels...in fact, i doubt it operates at even 7850 levels...it will be dialed back because of heat.

I have built 6 AMD APU units based on Llano and 5 Based on Trinity....and i can tell you right now that airflow is of the utmost important with these chips.

I know Jaguar is the lower power version, but the fact remains the same....ANYTHING over 62C with an AMD Chip is going to result in damage period. That is just how it is with AMD. I know some people say 71 or 72, but there is no way I would operate an AMD chip over 61C for any extended period of time. That will just fry it.

why am i saying this? Simple. The Graphics on the APU is on the chip with the CPU, thats what an APU is. These AMD APU's, while I like them in some situations, are prone to temperature swings...big temperature swings.

there is no way Sony will be able to run that GPU(on the APU Chip) anywhere near 100% at 100% power draw for any extended period of time without sufficient cooling. I don't mean some crappy heatsink and thermal paste...im talking you would need a real fan to do this.

The max temps on the old PS3 are NOTHING compared to the temps from these APU's if they don't have proper airflow and a decent heatsink....this is the reason I am not getting one...i don't see Sony having adequate cooling and you can bank on a high failure rate if Sony history of cooling means anything...YLOD..ha...that will be nothing in comparison.

I think this has all the makings of the 1st gen Xbox 360 RROD disaster for Sony....knowing Sony they will use a worse heatsink then the stock AMD cooler, which just barely keeps the APU under 60C at full load without overclocks.

If Sony Skimps on the heatsink, fans, and paste(we know they will), then they will have to undervolt that APU a lot and dial back the APU's GPU....if not the heat will get out of hand.

I am only saying this because I have a lot of experience with AMD's APU line, both Llano and Trinity (Socket FM1 and FM2) and they are prone to temp swings, and without a properly ventilated case, heatsink and fans, and undervolting (if not overclocking)...theres no way Sony will able to run that GPU at 100% without heat issues kicking in...perhaps even damaging the hardware...

Again, no way I would run an AMD CPU over 62C(thats really pushing it) for any extended period of time or your going to fry the thing....I just don't think Sony is up to the challenge...you need at least 2 case fans, and a heatsink with a fan, just to keep these APU's cool under load for extended periods...Sony is going to want to squash this thing into a little box...I just don't see this ending well...

Of course Sony will figure this out and fix their cooling in the second generation...but the 1st generation will come out with the cheapest crap possible just to get it out the door and make money....no thanks for me.



Subaru
1-3-2-4
Premium
join:2001-05-31
Greenwich, CT
kudos:1

Since they are buying these in bulk I would suspect that Sony talked to AMD about this?