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cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer to Mele20

Premium Member

to Mele20

Re: How to lease SB6141?

Around here, unless they've changed their song, "Lite", "Standard", and "Turbo" are D2 plans, "Extreme" (30/5), and "Ultimate" (50/5) are wideband/D3 plans. Will they let you use a D3 modem with a D2 plan? Sure, esp. if you own the modem, but they aren't likely to give you a new D3 modem. (they have a small warehouse of old D2's while the D3's are in "limited supply" -- which is why our recent BC line was originally setup with a "residential" modem -- it was a rush job (the whole office move was) and that's what he had.)

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

2 edits

bluepoint to Fleeced

Member

to Fleeced
said by Fleeced:

20/2 is not "wideband" and does not require a docsis 3 modem.

Wideband is only a word used to describe higher speed tiers because of bonded channels to reach a certain speed. You can have a standard tier with Docsis 3 modem and bonded channels. Bonded channels is not limited to what tier you are in, it's the system that provides the channels and if you have a modem that can use all channels, you are using wideband.

It's for future proofing why TWC is recommending D3 modem specially for subscriber's owned modems. My guess is, TWC will be bumping the turbo speed in the future above what D2 modem is capable of. For renters who wants to stay with D2 can easily exchange their modems when the speed bump happens, it's their choice if they want to wait but I'm pretty sure if you are in turbo renting the D2 modem they can easily exchange to D3 modem.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer to DocDrew

Premium Member

to DocDrew
Am I the only engineer who read that tech note and thought, "well that's easy enough to fix." (not having used an Arris CMTS, I don't know how hard it is to remove that attr from it's response.) After all, why send a D3 attr to a D2 modem? (TWC's database does know what your modem is. myservices/myaccount shows the correct modem for my accounts.)

DocDrew
How can I help?
Premium Member
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
Ubee E31U2V1
Technicolor TC4400
Linksys EA6900

3 edits

DocDrew

Premium Member

said by cramer:

Am I the only engineer who read that tech note and thought, "well that's easy enough to fix." (not having used an Arris CMTS, I don't know how hard it is to remove that attr from it's response.) After all, why send a D3 attr to a D2 modem? (TWC's database does know what your modem is. myservices/myaccount shows the correct modem for my accounts.)

Huh? The 6120 is a D3 modem.

I also don't think that TLV option is particular to D3, if I remember correctly it's a parameter used in "PowerBoost" configs. The problem was 1.0.1.8 firmware didn't handle that option properly and it was being sent whether or not it was configured on newer CMTS software due to changes in the D3 spec making it default in some way. Firmware before or after didn't have that problem. The vast majority of other modems didn't have an issue with it.

Motorola and their distributors made it worse by selling modems with old firmware for months, even after the problem was found.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer

Premium Member

Right. No sleep and no caffeine.

Either way, how hard is it to not send the TLV? On a Cisco, it's usually as easy as "no" in the right place to turn off a default. (maybe not to a specific subset of modems, 'tho)

As for "old stock"... I know first hand how much of a pain in the ass it is to get a new firmware image into the manufacturing processes. (granted, our products are trivial to fix in the field.)

DocDrew
How can I help?
Premium Member
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
Ubee E31U2V1
Technicolor TC4400
Linksys EA6900

1 edit

DocDrew

Premium Member

said by cramer:

Either way, how hard is it to not send the TLV? On a Cisco, it's usually as easy as "no" in the right place to turn off a default. (maybe not to a specific subset of modems, 'tho)

It's possible, but I think it was made more complicated by the use of PowerBoost.

Some operators using Walled Garden setups changed their default config files for non-provisioned modems in specific ways to allow the modems to sync. That coupled with an automated firmware update system for those specific modems allowed them online. Obviously that meant some extra hoops to jump through for modems already authorized.

So between the failure, time to troubleshoot down to the modem firmware/CMTS software incompatibility, solution testing, and large scale solution deployment, it was several months. All for 1 model modem with 1 specific firmware version which frequently users didn't know had a problem until it was plugged in.

This sort of firmware incompatibility situation happens somewhat frequently with modems, usually not to the point of modems not syncing, but it was made magnitudes worse by the retail distribution of the 6120s and old firmware.

j1349705
Premium Member
join:2006-04-15
Holly Springs, NC

j1349705 to cramer

Premium Member

to cramer
said by cramer:

The logical extension of this... they tested a specific firmware version. So, if you show up with any other version, they don't let your modem on the network. They're still NOT going to upgrade customer owned modems. They've been down this bumpy road and have no desire to try it again. It sucks, but I agree with their reasons.

Ideally, they should have a portal to allow *you* to request an update. But such a system would have a boatload of security implications.

This is kind of off topic, but OBIHAI VoIP ATAs (commonly discussed in the VoIP Tech Chat forum here) have a nice optional web management portal that lets you centralize administration of all of your OBi devices. When a firmware update is available, they do not automatically push the update - instead, an alert icon pops up next to any devices with an update. If you want to install it, just click the icon and within about 1 minute, your ATA will reboot with the latest firmware. Obviously they have it a lot easier since this is a single vendor solution, but it is a nice implementation.

For residential customers, the My Services portal already has a feature that will show whether or not your equipment is online or not. If it is easy enough to query the firmware version of the modem (possibly over SNMP?), it shouldn't be too hard to add an update function that would be reasonably secure, possibly with a customer interface similar to what I described above. They can force the customer to accept the terms and conditions before pushing the update. This (should) make both sides happy. Customers can get bug fixes when they want, and customers who are happy with their modems can skip the update if they are concerned about bugs. If they can securely offer remote management of DVR recordings and Digital Phone features, it seems like a secure way to update modems should also be possible. Obviously, the update function would have to be set up to only allow official firmware from the cable modem vendor. If TWC wants to do more testing before approving the update, I'm all for that as well. I'm not suggesting that they should allow customers to update firmware images... that would not be a good idea, and most of the time customers can't get them anyways.

There is definitely a lot of conflicting information on how they have handled or will handle updates for customer owned equipment in the future. And both sides have valid points. However, I think the policy of not updating will be far more likely to cause problems for both TWC and customers in the long run. Not many cable modem firmware release notes get released to the public, but some of them I have seen definitely show some important bug fixes.
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

1 edit

cramer

Premium Member

Not to keep kicking the dead horse, but... Either way they go, there will be issues. No updates mean there will be buggy modems out there. Doing the updates means some of them are going to fail -- yes, with a sample size as large as an ISP, there. will. be. failures. (I've been there, signed the PO for the t-shirts.) If you screw up a modem, you'll have to replace it. This makes for a very pissed customer -- esp. if they owned the modem. Angry customers are very vocal customers.

DOCSIS 1.1 introduced a number of security processes for firmware updates. The process is specifically engineered to only come from the network, so no manufacturer even has a channel to get a new firmware to end users.

Given that, it follows that the firmware on any given modem will either be a "GA" release loaded from the factory, or an ISP specific firmware they loaded on it. The operator has to authenticate every modem on the network. So they (should, can, etc.) know the manufacturer, model, serial number, and firmware version of every device out there. Proper testing means having one of everything in your testlab. How the 6120 bug didn't happen in their lab leaves me bald. This wasn't some random Chinese modem; it was a very popular, and approved, modem they themselves used, and they were coming from the factory with the old/buggy firmware. It makes no sense that they wouldn't have *one* 6120 with that firmware on it in the lab. Or that they wouldn't've retrieved one from the field as soon as this started to put it in the lab to see *why* it's failing. (I'm also assuming motorola didn't have it striped down so far it wouldn't log why it was rebooting. "invalid field" doesn't help much if it doesn't say which field; that doesn't mean you cannot find it, just that the engineers will have to earn their massive paycheck to find it.)

I've been there and worked through many a panic. The test lab cannot simulate an entire universe. Bugs are going to be missed; this is a fact. The 6120 issue should've been seen in the lab, but it wasn't. (we'll come back to that when we're looking for someone to fire.) This is why it's suicide to do any rapid, large scale roll out. When an issue surfaces -- and it will -- you now face a network-wide problem instead of localized problem. Rolling back an entire network is, well, more of mess than the upgrade. "Staged Upgrades", say it with me class. Given the size of TWC (Comcast, etc.) network, they should never be finished with an upgrade -- they should never have the same version on every system... there should be several versions rolling across the network like ripples in pond. </rant>

[Edit: I've worked for and with several ISPs over the decades, but TWC isn't one of them. I have no idea what they test, or how -- and it's never come up in conversation with the people I know there. There are pictures of someone's test lab over in the bbphotos forum.]
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to Fleeced

Premium Member

to Fleeced
said by Fleeced:

20/2 is not "wideband" and does not require a docsis 3 modem. You can theoretically put extreme on a D2 modem if you really wanted to (Though it's not recommended). Accounting for overhead, channel bonding (The Docsis 3 feature) isn't a requirement until you start getting over 30 down.

Having a D3 modem will offer a lot of advantages on the turbo (20/2 speed) but again, is not a requirement in any sort of fashion.

You cannot get 20/2 in Hawaii without a visit to your home for the installation and you are required to have a DOCSIS 3 modem. Oceanic said that they had intended originally to offer the Turbo tier with DOCSIS 2 modems but were told by TWC corporate that while TWC would not force them to do it that TWC STRONGLY recommended that Oceanic require DOCSIS 3 modems for Turbo tier so that is the policy they implemented.

I think we are having a semantics problem here. Oceanic is "requiring" a DOCSIS 3 modem if you want 20/2. Maybe technically it is not required but Oceanic IS requiring it after TWC corporate told them they should require it.

So, it IS required here. Oceanic will not provision a DOCSIS 2 modem at 20/2. I told Oceanic that I wanted to keep my SB 5100 because the newer SBs lack the pause button that I love and used every day from 2001 when I first got Road Runner. Oceanic said I had to have a DOCSIS 3 modem.

rchandra
Stargate Universe fan
Premium Member
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
ARRIS ONT1000GJ4
EnGenius EAP1250

rchandra to bluepoint

Premium Member

to bluepoint
Basically, yes. You go with your own modem, your options are limited. If you get one which is not on their current approved list (as I did) and they accept your MAC address, and it works, great. (Many times this is because they themselves have that model or similar still on their network, such as if they've used them in the past.) If they don't accept your MAC address or it won't work, you're kind of stuck, and have to take it up with whomever sold it to you; many vendors have a good return policy though. If you get one that's on their current approved list, I think you get something close to support as if you rented/leased, except of course when they go through all their troubleshooting and their conclusion is, it's your particular unit that's the issue, so you're on your own to rectify the problem at that point (in the sense that you can't just go on down to your nearest TWC store and get a modem, unless you want to start leasing).

Don't forget that part of the MAC address identifies the manufacturer, so for example ordering a firmware push for some model based on MAC address is likely very possible.
rchandra

rchandra to cramer

Premium Member

to cramer
What really annoyed me is that, according to the status Web page from the modem, it was coming online enough that, if they so chose, I think they could specify firmware to download (TFTP of parameters, IIRC), but it was outside their SOPs. So I was forced to negotiate with the vendor (Best Buy in this case) to swap it.

They also ran into an issue where the modem would "upgrade" itself every night, and therefore reboot...for weeks. I basically didn't care because very close to 100% of the time it happened while I was asleep, so I didn't notice it at all until I looked at the log page for a reason why my DSLR monitor showed unreachability .