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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

[WIN8] Computer sleeps instead of turning off?

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On this new Win 8 Desktop, I have Power Management set to Hard Disks always on and turn off monitor after 5 minutes of inactivity. I rarely fully shut down this, or any computer, but I do expect my computers to shut down fully if I do, on rare occasions, click on Shutdown.

A couple of days ago, there was a brownout that affected the circuit my XP computer is on and my UPS hibernated it and then shut itself down and totally off which is the correct behavior. My Win 8 computer was on the circuit that appeared unaffected by the brownout. But I decided to shut the machine down anyway until the electric company fixed the problem. So, I shut it down. I did not want it to sleep or hibernate. I did leave the UPS it is on running.

I see in Event Viewer that there is an event 42 that occurred when I shut down this Win 8 computer. Event says it went to sleep! So, how do I get it to shutdown...not sleep? I did have, without realizing it, some automatic maintenance tasks that I thought I had turned off but they weren't so maybe that was keeping it from fully shutting down? I fully disabled automatic maintenance and will make sure there are NO tasks EVER in Task Scheduler. After I make sure there is NOTHING that can wake it for some scheduled junk task...in fact can I just completely disable task scheduler? Task scheduler is a headache I don't need.

Anyhow, what I want is to get it so, if I do shut it down, that it actually shuts down and does not sleep instead. Do I have to unplug it from the UPS to accomplish that? (During a power outage, the UPS software will hibernate it and now I am worried about that also. I have been reading that with SSD sleep and hibernation both should NEVER be used).
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


jaa
Premium
join:2000-06-13
kudos:2

When you turn it on after "shutdown", does it resume or do a cold boot?



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to Mele20

Have you disabled fast start?

»www.eightforums.com/tutorials/63···8-a.html
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to jaa

It does a cold boot.

But I've done more reading and I turned off Fast Boot just now in Power Options. Fast Boot, if on, means the computer does a kernel hibernation when you press the start button on the computer or do shutdown from Start menu (I have Start8 application so shut down is in Start Menu and I don't have to use Charms bar). From what I have read, unless you disable Fast Boot the computer doesn't fully shut down rather it does a "mini" hibernation. I didn't realize until now what Fast Boot is and I want a full shut down if I shut the computer down.

But Win 8 Help says something about if you want to do a full shutdown because you are going on vacation, etc. then you choose "shutdown" from Power options but that didn't make sense because if Fast Boot is enabled then there is no such thing as a full shut down on Win8 unless I have misunderstood what I have been reading. You have to disable Fast Start to have the ability to do a full shutdown.

It is not clear to me if turning off Fast Boot turns off hibernation as managed by my UPS if there is a power outage. I do want hibernation to occur in this ONE instance but I don't want hibernation/kernel hibernation any other time.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



Cartel
Premium
join:2006-09-13
Chilliwack, BC
kudos:2
Reviews:
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reply to Mele20

Maybe this?


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3
reply to Mele20

As I mentioned a few times in other posts, I'm doing a lot of testing with Windows 8 on the same desktop hardware that my Windows 7 system is currently running....I just switch hard drives.

During one round of testing, I was only in Windows 8 for a short time after doing an install, and did not fully do all my steps (really just installed the OS to verify event logs on boot-up). Since I had made no changes, I did not run the following command like I always do

powercfg.exe /hibernate off
 

When I clicked on the Charms bar, and then power, and then "Shutdown", my system went into "hibernate" mode. I of course wanted it off, as I was going to unplug the hard drive, and switch to my Windows 7 ones. But, I stopped myself, as my desktop was still on (fans were spinning, and I had power lights on the front of the desktop). It did not shutdown like it normally does.

I knew right away what I forget to do. So, I booted it back up, ran that command, and then hit "Shutdown" in the same place. My computer then did exactly what I told it to do.

The only other power option I set in Windows 8 on my desktop are below.

•Turn off the display: Never
•Put the computer to sleep: Never
•Turn off hard disk after Setting (Minutes): 0

With those 4 settings made, my computer will stay on full power unless I physically turn it off. When I go to sleep, I just power off my monitor manually by the button on the side of it.

So, I think you may want to look to see if you really did disable "Fast Startup". I know running the command I referenced above does just that, and every time I select "Shutdown", it will shutdown the desktop.

--Brian

--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

I turned off Fast Start in Power Options.

I just did a shutdown. I waited a couple of minutes then did a cold boot. Then I checked Event Viewer. THIS time event viewer did not have Event 42 or the accompanying Event 1 when started again and it returned from sleep.

For me, according to BootRacer records there is a 3-4 second difference (slower) for boot to login (6-7 seconds when Fast Start is OFF). Boot time to desktop from login is 24 seconds with or without Fast Start. So, I lose 3-4 seconds in total boot time to desktop, with systray items fully loaded, if I turn off Fast Start.

I will keep Fast Start turned off as I don't often do a full shut down and when I do I want the computer to shut down fully.

I just hope that with these power option settings that it will hibernate as a non-attended shutdown, managed by CyberPower software, in the event of a power outage when I am not at the computer.

--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3

I don't think you can have it both ways. The command that I run turns off Hibernation, which in effect (I would think) disable any chance of your desktop going into hibernation in the event of a power failure, when connected to your UPS.

--Brian


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

Click for full size
Click for full size
Hibernation is still available when you turn off Fast Start. Fast Start uses hybrid shutdown not full hibernation so I don't think turning off Fast Start turns off hibernation or gets rid of the hiberfil.sys file which I still have and is BIG.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3

Ahh ok I see that now!

I just know if you run the command I suggested, it turns of Hibernation (the .sys file is removed), which of course turns off Fast Start.

But, in your case, just turning off Fast Start does not fully turn off Hibernation.

So, then it should work the way we think it should then. Full shutdown, and computer goes to hibernation when the power goes out and your UPS kicks in.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail


50198495

join:2013-01-22
Portland, OR

1 edit
reply to Mele20

Hello Friends,

Go to start> Click Control Panel
On the left side of your screen select switch to Classic View(if it's not already selected)
Select Power Options
If you have Windows XP under the Power Schemes tab change the Turn Off Hard Disks and System standby to your desired time and click apply.
Vista:
When you open Power Options in Vista the Select a Power Plan page is displayed.
Click on Change Plan Settings
Change the Turn Off Display and Put the Computer to Sleep setting to your desired time.
Click Save Changes.

Thanks and Regards,
Agili Ron

[Mod: Link removed. --kc]


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

???

The thread is about Windows 8 which is different from any version before it regarding some aspects of Power Savings.

I don't want to change "turn off hard disks" and "system standby" on my XP computer to a specific time! ALL my computers, which are desktops, whatever OS they run, are set to

Turn off Hard disks: Never
System standby/sleep: Never

The ONLY time on the XP computer that hibernation is used is when Power Chute software initiates a managed shutdown ((but actually it hibernates first and then shuts the machine down) during a power outage when I am not present to manage the shutdown myself.

These are desktops that are rarely shut down. Plus, this Windows 8 machine has a SSD and you NEVER should use sleep, hibernation or even hybrid shutdown (which is what happens if Fast Start is on). You need to avoid these if you have a SSD so that you don't shorten the life span of the drive (especially since these drives are not cheap...yet). The ONLY time hibernation or hybrid shutdown should be used with a SSD on Win 8 is when your software manages an unattended shutdown due to a power outage. If you have very frequent power outages that are long enough to necessitate a shutdown then you should probably not use hibernation. (Anyone with an SSD should be monitoring its lifespan. There is some neat software (free) that will do it).
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



jap
Premium
join:2003-08-10
038xx

1 edit
reply to 50198495

NM. Server blip confused me.



Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium
join:2004-07-08
united state
reply to Mele20

Mele20:

The Fast Boot/Hybrid thing is actually a misnomer.When you select Shutdown from the Start Menu/Charms Bar on Windows 8..the system Shuts down completely...there is no harm leaving Fast Boot on...your computer is not in hibernation/sleep per se...not in the traditional sense.

As you can read in the link below, when you shutdown the computer with Fast Boot on...it closes your user session, it then "writes the kernel session" to a file on your hard drive then powers off.

Next time you restart, instead of having to re-initilize all your drivers and everything all over again, it simply reads the kernel state from the file written to the drive and boots up...this makes boot up times 30-70% faster.

if fast boot is not causing you any problems, i would leave it on...if you must have a complete non-kernel session write shutdown, then simply hold down the shift key when clicking on shutdown to do a non-fast boot shutdown.

»blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011···s-8.aspx

All the fans are off, the system is not turned on..the session is merely written to a hiberfil...

I know this to be true, because I myself was confused about the sleeps showing up in the Event viewer too...so last month i shut down the PC and unplugged the power supply cord from the PC for about 14 hours(sleep and went to work)

I came home, plugged the PC back in, kicked it on and Fast Boot worked...

So the system isn't even on when you shut down with Fast boot...it just writes the kernel session to a file to read at the next boot up to make it faster.

if you want to wait longer for it to start up, then go ahead and disable it...if its working I would just leave it on...you can always hold down the shift key while clicking shutdown to do a standard old school shutdown in cases when you need to....but i find Fast Boot to be a breath of fresh air..its nice it writes the kernel session to a file that is much faster to read the next time i turn it on VS re-initializing everything..

You get all the benefits of sleep mode with a true power down...whats not to like?


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

I had already read that article and I don't understand Microsoft's reasoning. With an SSD you want to avoid even kernel hibernation and why would you want your computer to not start totally fresh if you have chosen to completely shut it down? If you like sleep or hibernation then use those (but not if you have an SSD). I see no point in this Fast Start. I save 3 seconds? But don't have a new boot. No, now that I understand Fast Boot, I don't want it. It will stay disabled.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3

I agree there. When I shutdown, I want a clean boot up (nothing left from the previous session) the next time I power it on.

This is why I run the command that I do, to make sure anything to do with Fast Boot or Hibernation is disabled.

None of that can work if the hiberfil.sys does not exist!

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail



Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium
join:2004-07-08
united state
reply to Mele20

Why would you want to avoid hibernation on a SSD? Microsoft has optimized Win7 and Win 8 for SSD. Also implementing TRIM to ensure drive wear scaling increases the life of the drive even more then it would normally?

furthermore,

SSD Limited number of writes is relative. Say, if you have an SSD with 100,000 write cycles and no wear-leveling, this means that if you hibernate 10 times a day, this drive will serve you over 27 years before the hibernation will wear it out.

However, most modern drives use wear-leveling, which means data is dynamically moved around so the cells wear out equally which prolongs the life of the drive even more.

If your SSD is 128 GB or larger, it would probably take 10 or more years to wear out SSD using Fast Boot or Hibernation....

Your putting more wear on your drive "turning off Fast Boot" because your forcing your drive to do more read and writes operations, re-initializing all your drivers and loading all the windows core files, temp files, events logs, from a cold boot then you would have leaving Fast Boot on.

Fast Boot was designed with SSD in mind...there is "less" read and write operations performed when reading the kernel state from the hiberfil written to disk at log off....

it is not storing your whole session, its is only storing the kernel session which at max is only about the size of 15% of your total RAM...in essence...it doesn't wear out your drive any more then copying and pasting a file.

Mele, i was just as confused with this whole issue as you when i first got Windows 8, but if your worried about SSD longevity, doing cold boots everytime you start the PC puts more wear on your drive then reading the kernel state from the hiberfil.sys and writing it to disk at shutdown...tons of disk operations are performed at a cold boot, much more then with Fast Boot.

Microsoft designed Fast Boot not only for reg hard drives, not only for speed, but to prolong the life of SSD, which are in most tablet computers which is becoming more important in Microsoft overall focus. Fast Boot was designed with SSD in mind, top reduce the overall wear on them my allowing you to bypass some parts of the standard boot up process.

it was also designed smart enough that if you install updates, update drivers, etc..Windows will notice this and do a Cold Boot automatically and will update the hiberfile.sys Kernel state on the next shutdown....reading the kernel state from the hiberfil is much less wear on your drive then a full on cold boot...

as i said earlier...if you hibernated 10 times a day your SSD would reach its end of life in a decade....depending on your drive that may be long...if your drive has 100,000 write cycles without TRIM it would last 27 years...

the hibernation info with SSD may have been an issue in 2007, but it isn't now...not with TRIM and improved SSD firmware from vendors over the last few years, and Microsoft optimizing their OS for SSD.



Freddy
Premium
join:2005-05-17
Arlington, VA
kudos:2

Also, Sleep doesn't shorten the life of a SSD.

Freddy


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Woody79_00

I rarely shut down my computer. There is NO NEED for Fast Start on Desktops that have hard drives Always ON. On the rare occasions that I do fully shut down then I want a clean boot when I turn the computer on again.

I think Microsoft has thought ONLY of laptops and tablets. They have already admitted that they readily threw us Desktop users under the bus when they created Windows 8. You also are assuming I have a laptop. Desktop users rarely turn off the hard disks and have zero need of sleep or hibernation except during a power outage (although they probably have the monitor set to turn off after a certain period of time). Most home desktop users run their computers 24/7. Plus, I have a new UPS for this new machine. This UPS is different from my older ones. It is "Green" and about 75% less power is consumed than when using a conventional UPS.

I will not allow my desktops to sleep or hibernate (except when the power goes off for longer than the UPS can handle). I have no need for Fast Start because that is designed SOLELY for laptop and tablet users. If I shut down fully that is either because I am going on extended vacation or because I need a full cold boot when I start up again. As for the estimated lifetime of the 256GB SSD drive, SSDLife reports that to be until July 24, 2021. The disk currently is at 90%. I haven't had this program very long so it has not had much time to observe the system and how I use it so it may revise the estimates in a month or two. Plus, I don't know how accurate this software is either. I actually wish now that I had not bought this expensive SSD but I did so.....

As for trimming, just as I have always done with rotational hard drives, I will do that manually. I don't like Windows doing things like this automatically. My standard hard drives on XP needed defragging twice a year but Windows wanted to do it once a week.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



Woody79_00
I run Linux am I still a PC?
Premium
join:2004-07-08
united state

Fair enough Mele, I guess if you leave your system on all the time then there is no point of using it. I also agree with you that Win8 was designed solely with laptops and tablets in mind...which is a real bummer in itself.