 cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to telco_mtl
Re: Sump Pump - Discharge riser freezing said by telco_mtl:just what ive seen when basement systems install sump pumps, at the exit of the house they put an air break in the system, so the pipe that exits the house discharges into a bigger pipe, keeps the outside pipe empty and lets air in the pipe. That prevents the system from backing up when the discharge pipe freezes outside. It allows water to at least flow out of the house. The problem here though is that it's freezing just before it goes outside. |
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| said by cdru:said by telco_mtl:just what ive seen when basement systems install sump pumps, at the exit of the house they put an air break in the system, so the pipe that exits the house discharges into a bigger pipe, keeps the outside pipe empty and lets air in the pipe. That prevents the system from backing up when the discharge pipe freezes outside. It allows water to at least flow out of the house. The problem here though is that it's freezing just before it goes outside. ever thought of putting one of those cheater valves on a stand pipe in the house, they allow air into the pipes and keep sewer gas out of the house for places you cant put a vent, but in this case put one of those cheater valves on the pipe inside the house, it will allow the pipe through the wall to empty between pump cycles |
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 AVDRespice, Adspice, ProspicePremium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1 | from what I read, the pipe through the wall is empty, its the pipe on the inside that holds the water.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.-- |
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AVDRespice, Adspice, ProspicePremium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1 | if you really want to be clever, you can devise a siphon system. |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | reply to telco_mtl
said by telco_mtl:ever thought of putting one of those cheater valves on a stand pipe in the house, they allow air into the pipes and keep sewer gas out of the house for places you cant put a vent, but in this case put one of those cheater valves on the pipe inside the house, it will allow the pipe through the wall to empty between pump cycles
You aren't understanding where it's freezing. The check valves at the pump ensure that any water pumped out doesn't drain back into the sump once the valve shuts off. That results in water standing in the pipe up to the top of the most vertical run of the drain pipe. After the pump shuts off, water is draining so that it's flush with the bottom of the horizontal run that heads through the wall. It's freezing right at this spot because either outside air is cooling through the pipe, or more likely the large vent directly beside where the pipe goes through the wall.
The water is not remaining at that level because of an air lock. An air admittance valve like you describe would not do anything. The solution to the problem is that either the air at that spot needs to be kept above freezing, or the water level in the drain needs to be lowered to a spot where the air temperature is above freezing. The latter can not (easily) be done with the check valves in place unless they are somehow bypassed, defeating some of their purpose of not having to re-pump water that's drained back into the sump. |
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| Thanks all for the input.
CDRU is bang on with where and how it is freezing... prior to my previous sump pump failure, I only had a single pump without a check valve. The stand pipe would drain back after each pump out and, effectively, double the number of pumps required to maintain the pit. That said, it also eliminated the freezing issue but increased the possiblity of an air lock on the pump.
I bought some Big-O end caps last night and stuffed the vents full of pink insulation before capping with the end caps. I do not want a permanent solution plugging the hole as they ventilate humidity in the summer. For those who aren't familiar with this type of setup, this 'room' is the area under the front concrete porch. It is separated for the basement proper by a steel insulated door and the room has no source of heating or cooling. Basically, it normally stays about 4C in the winter and about 12C in the summer. This has been an exceptionally cold winter but I want a solution that will be permanent.
When at the HoPo last night, I looked at the heater tape and spoke to one of the 'plumbers' at the HoPo (remember when Home Depot used to have knowledgable workers... it seems sometimes now it is whoever can fill out an application although some are still very good). The cables indicate they should not be used on drain pipe (supply only). I expect this is due to a fire hazard if the drain is empty and the heater is running? Comments? Someone with more knowledge than the 'plumber' at the HoPo?
Hoping a permanent solution is discovered before this cold snap stops and I have no way of testing whether anything is working  |
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cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7 | said by mepadre:When at the HoPo last night, I looked at the heater tape and spoke to one of the 'plumbers' at the HoPo (remember when Home Depot used to have knowledgable workers... it seems sometimes now it is whoever can fill out an application although some are still very good). The cables indicate they should not be used on drain pipe (supply only). I expect this is due to a fire hazard if the drain is empty and the heater is running? Comments? Someone with more knowledge than the 'plumber' at the HoPo? Some are designed only for metal supply lines. Others can work on drain. Freeze Free specifically mentions plastic drain pipes. It's only 3 watts per foot of cord with a 5' kit available in retail packaging.
Your application would be a little different then a typical drain application as your drain pipe usually would contain water. If indeed it runs a few times a day in winter, I doubt it will evaporate enough between pumps that it would run dry. Installing the heat tape a little below the 90 going outside would also provide additional time before it evaporated off, presuming convection currents in the water were enough to keep the top surface from freezing.
Another option is just to replace the plastic line with a metal one. |
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 hm
@videotron.ca | reply to mepadre
said by mepadre:The cables indicate they should not be used on drain pipe (supply only). I expect this is due to a fire hazard if the drain is empty and the heater is running? Comments? Someone with more knowledge than the 'plumber' at the HoPo?
From their webpage:
Warning: This cable has been designed for the sole purpose of preventing metal and rigid plastic water filled lines from freezing. DO NOT use this product on fuel lines, drain lines, hoses or buried pipes.
Guess that's right.
Another one to scratch from the list.
That leaves three options as far as I can see (if the insulation doesn't work).
1. Try your light bulb method.
2. Move the line away from the wall as stated above.
3. rig something to drain the top foot of water or so from the pipe. |
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| reply to mepadre
Ahh ok, so basically its in your cold room, thats a different story, yup for now i think the only recourse is to block the fresh air holes for the winter and maybe put a light bulb in there for the duration of the cold spell as HM says |
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 mattmagPremium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-04-09
NW Illinois
kudos:3 | reply to mepadre
You need to call the guy that designed a sump pit to be in the cold room and have him come keep it clear for you...  |
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hm
@videotron.ca | reply to telco_mtl
Long term solution for me would be to move it away from the wall this summer. |
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 UHFAll static, all day, ForeverPremium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
 ·Callcentric
 ·DIRECTV
 ·surpasshosting
| reply to mepadre
Drill a 1/8" hole in the pipe just above the check valve so the standpipe can slowly drain back into the pit. Problem solved.
Yes, the pump will run twice as often, and yes, some water will come out that hole when the pump runs, but the pipe won't freeze. |
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PSWired
join:2006-03-26
Annapolis, MD
1 edit | reply to mepadre
Here's what I'd be tempted to do:
Drill and tap a hole in the discharge riser just below the concrete ceiling level in the pump room. Get a vinyl or brass right angle fitting with NPT threads on one end and a hose barb on the other. Screw it into the hole you've just put in the pipe. Run clear vinyl tubing from that fitting back down to the pit.
When the pump is running, a small amount of water will recycle from the riser back down the vinyl tube. Once the pump stops, the top section of the riser (that's exposed to freezing temps) will drain back to the pit. The rest will stay full.
If you've got a lot of solids flowing into the pit, this might not work well due to the fitting getting clogged. |
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 jester121Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL | reply to mepadre
Hook up a hose on a slow trickle into the sump pit so the pump cycles at least a couple times an hour even during the winter. Flushing fresh water through there regularly 24x7 should keep things thawed nicely, I would think. At the very least I'd try this before dicking around drilling holes in pipes. |
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BobAccount deleted
join:2012-07-22
New Jersey Reviews:
 ·Optimum Online
| reply to mepadre
My 2 cents. Note that I have zero experience with sump pumps...
Get rid of the check valves by running separate pipes up and through the wall. Have each pipe go through an air gap where they enter the drain.
This will allow water to drain back into the pit, removing any standing water from the pipe, preventing freezing. |
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 ChinaboundPremium
join:2002-12-21
Antioch, IL
kudos:3 | reply to mepadre
How about installing a vent of some sort in the door? One that can be opened during the coldest days, allowing just enough warm air in that space to keep it above freezing.
I did this in a wall down in the basement to prevent a spigot from freezing. I cut through the drywall and installed a typical furnace vent, but the piping is behind it, and the warm air from the room keeps that space warm enough to prevent any freezing. I keep the vent open during the cold months and close it when it warms up.
I posted pictures some time ago, but I can't remember the thread. |
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI | reply to mepadre
I still like your idea #1 from the OP. |
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 MsradellP.E.Premium
join:2008-12-25
Louisville, KY
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to mepadre
Depending on how low the temperatures go where the OP lives, the only option may be to warm the pipe in some way. In areas where temperatures get very low (less than 0° C), the pipe gets cold enough that the water can freeze when it comes in contact with the cold pipe. If this is what is happening, and it will could be in Ontario, no amount of additional draining is going to help! The only option is to keep the pipe warmer. |
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 Lurch77Premium
join:2001-11-22
Oconto, WI
kudos:4 | reply to mepadre
Back up pumps should have their own discharge piping. We see why in this thread. If the discharge is blocked or frozen the back up pump can take over and discharge through it's own piping. Unless you have bad access, installing back up piping shouldn't be too hard, and could eliminate the need for checks. |
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 norton
join:2005-08-03
Holland, MI | reply to mepadre
move back up valve and or redesign to allow for stand of water after valve in pipe that is is warm part of system only- maintain zero water in cold area. Any other design means you need to add heat.
in short put valve closer to pump and eliminate a long run of water in pipe in colder part of system. |
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