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Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31

LFR is better than LFD

This is an interesting viewpoint I thought I would share with the board.It is from the blog In An Age: »inanage.com/

for those that cant open; copy pasta:

A few days after my friend ran me through some of the MoP heroics, he asked what I thought about them. To be honest, I did not think about them much at all. They are much easier than Cataclysm heroics, of course, which should be a reason to like them as much as I did the Wrath heroics; I am solidly in the “random pug content should be easy” category. At the same time… something felt off about them. It was not until I queued for LFR that I realized what it was.

LFR is everything that LFD strives to be. It is the final evolution of the LFD process, if you will.

Like many people, I was annoyed to find out that Blizzard backslid on reputation gains with MoP, removing the two-expansion precedent of running heroics with tabards. On one level, their argument makes sense: daily quest hubs are one guaranteed way to get people back out into the world. And while Blizzard has a long way to go with their stubborn “strangers are competition” design – Guild Wars 2 fixed it so thoroughly that anything less feels archaic – the daily quests became a quasi-guild event for my group for at least two weeks.

But there is a longer con going on here, and Blizzard is being a bit more clever than I thought. Put simply: Blizzard is intentionally marginalizing heroic dungeon content. The decreased difficulty is irrelevant compared to the fact that there isn’t really ever a reason to run heroics anymore. When tabards gave reputation, you always had a reason to run X number of dungeons far beyond the possibility of upgrades. When (BoP) Chaos Orbs only dropped from bosses, crafters had a reason to run dungeons. When Valor was only easily capped from heroics, you had a reason to run them every day (or at least 7x/week). None of those things are true or relevant anymore.

Raid Finder as a solution to the endgame problem is goddamn genius. The biggest problem with the raid scene in WoW was with how low participation has been; no matter how awesome raids like Ulduar are, it gets hard to justify the expense when less than 25% of your players see the first boss. Solution: LFR. No matter how much they bribe tanks to queue for heroics, I do not think I have seen a DPS queue less than 40 minutes long. Solution: LFR. Seriously, I had an 8 minute DPS queue for LFR the other day to possibly get gear 20 ilevels higher than heroics. Random jerks that you can’t kick harshing your vibes in heroics? Solution: LFR. People Need-whoring your drops? Solution: LFR. If there was ever a clearer indication that LFR is in and LFD is out, it would be how LFR has the new looting system and LFD is stuck with “mage won the healer trinket.” Once they start letting you win off-spec gear in LFR, there won’t be a reason to do anything else.

Oh, and how many new 5-mans are coming out in 5.2? Exactly.

So if you are wondering what I think about the Raid Finder system, I think it is fantastic. LFR is not perfect by any means, but it is probably the biggest improvement in WoW’s endgame structure since LFD. It provides practice for the “real” raids; it provides complexity in a somewhat more forgiving environment; it provides something more substantial than endless heroic runs; there are/will be enough of them to take up a good chunk of your playtime if you wish it; better loot with less grinding; and, finally, LFR offers an elegant solution to DPS over-representation.

I sometimes question the decisions they make over in Blizzard HQ, but whoever designed the integration of LFR into the game proper deserves a raise.



Eumaeus

join:2009-12-10
Yorktown, VA

While I agree that overall LFR has been a fantastic addition to the game, there are some definite shortfalls still.

One that is to be expected in a way is queue times. There are times when a DPS queue time is 45 mins - 1 hour. Supposing you wait through that to land in a 2/6 down Garalon group (when it was a wipefest on LFR). Even IF your group managed to down the boss you then had a huge wait time to get back in for the first part of the raid.

Second is the way loot is handled in LFR. Some people are ridiculously lucky and get 3-4 items in a run. Others will go weeks with no upgrades at all. In fact I have not gotten an item from Sha for 7 weeks despite using a token on each week's kill.

This brings me to my next suggestion - get rid of elder tokens. Replace them with a stacking bonus to your chance to get loot that gains a stack every time you kill a boss, say 4%. When the boss dies you are given the choice to use your stacks or save them. If you save them, it rolls just like it does now for you. If you use them it will increase your chance to get loot by 4% / stack and will then wipe your stacks.

Then again, this would mess with the need to do dailies and we all know how much they insist we are to like and do dailies. In a nutshell they should address the chance to do LFR week after week for no benefit.
--
Eumaeus, Guardian/Balance Druid
GM - Lux ex Tenebris - Sargeras | Alliance
[6/6] MSV [5/6] HoF



s1deout
Geek4Life
Premium
join:2003-12-10
Troy, OH
kudos:2
reply to Skittles

The only problem I have with LFR is the time sink you have to do so you can get the extra coins to get bonus rolls. And then you end up getting gold for that sometimes.

Makes it hard to get gear if you don't have a ton of time to do dailies to get the 90 lesser each week.

I think there needs to be some changes with the looting or at least get you a better chance at gear when using your bonus roll coins.

Other than that yes the queue times suck greatly.



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

Queue times are a reflection of community involvement, not Blizzard. For those with an ilvl of 470, there are 16 chances at LFR loot. The elder coins give you an additional 3 chances at your discretion. One of those chances is better spent on Sha of Anger and (if you are lucky enough to get a chance) Salyis's Warband. Most of the gear I've obtained from LFR has been from the regular chance at the loot rather than the extra roll, YMMV.

All of this is to say that the real complaint here is that we can't barter/trade/buy loot that other people are getting in LFR like we used to (and that makes the RNG seem more brutal) nor can we really just buy valor to remedy bad RNG without A LOT of rep grinding.

The real pain of LFR is when your alt has just enough gear to get into MV (i460), but you haven't had the time (or inclination) to grind out GL/Klaxxi/Shieldwall to get the valor gear to bump you up to i470 yet.... which means you only get one LFR in your week... the rest of your time is supposedly left for you grind out dailies. That makes bad RNG in the one MV you ran that week seem extra punitive.

I like LFR. I like the current approach to Dungeon difficulty (and having Scenarios available for the epeen l33t is great). I don't like scenarios on my tanks or healers... but they weren't really made for tanks and healers. They were made for dps to knock something out quickly without having to wait on a tank or healer.
--
Intelligence is no substitute for Character.



Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31

I think you summed that up well Immer, I remember how frustrating it was to grind rep all week to get elder coins and faction gains only to go into LFR and see nothing drop, waste coins, rinse and repeat got to grinding for nothing feeling so I gave up on this xpac.

Perhaps with the purposed rep gain changes from daily heroics, LFR drop increase and current rep increase for all toons after you hit revered will be enough to satistfy the "feel" of this xpac. This coupled with my itch for getting my rogue back to PvPing, I may have to renew at some point.



xenograffiti

@unt.edu
reply to Skittles

I agree with most of what the guy says, except that LFD isn't "out" as far as I'm concerned. In fact the only thing in this game that's literally a daily for me is running a 10min faceroll 5-man for 80 valor.



Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Skittles

The only problem I have with LFR is the total lack of ranged weapons for hunters.

They simply don't exist.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.



seaquake
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-23
Millersville, MD

said by Jobbie:

The only problem I have with LFR is the total lack of ranged weapons for hunters.

They simply don't exist.

There's one on the Will of the Emperor and one somewhere in the Terrace. I've gotten the LFR one from the Will. Hasn't dropped in our 10m group yet...when it does, we'll probably have a second hunter in group and I'll lose it.


JB
Stay Gold
Premium
join:2009-05-14
kudos:1
reply to Skittles

oh my god, I NEED my SHINIES.



Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to seaquake

said by seaquake:

said by Jobbie:

The only problem I have with LFR is the total lack of ranged weapons for hunters.

They simply don't exist.

There's one on the Will of the Emperor and one somewhere in the Terrace. I've gotten the LFR one from the Will. Hasn't dropped in our 10m group yet...when it does, we'll probably have a second hunter in group and I'll lose it.

Will of the Emperor and Lei Shi they show on the loot list but they are fake, even yours is fake!
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Endbringer

join:2012-10-07
Fishers, IN
reply to Skittles

LFD is a waste gear wise once you can do LFR but it still has a benefit to do because once geared you can run thru a heroic in 20 min and get 80 valor for doing so...in LFR your getting 90 valor and its going to take you a few hours to go from beginning to end of the raid

I would love a 45-1hr que time for LFR, being a tank mine is closer to 2hrs...unless i have time on a Tuesday when EVERYONE is doing them. Due to the long que time i have only 1 thing to do which is grind rep...which i am so over...

i love both LFD and LFR since i work 2 jobs and cant commit to a guild raid schedule anymore. so im a loner at the moment and LFR is my only way to see content



Einion

join:2010-02-23
Ringgold, GA
reply to Skittles

I personally have had moderate luck with LFR. I have only been running them for roughly 3 weeks now due to some RL stuff right after the expansion dropped. In that time frame i have been lucky to get the gear i needed with the exception of the LFR tier tokens. I have even recieved my Sha touched weapon already but have been fairly unlucky with the sigil drops.

On the other hand i have a friend who has run Terrace 14 weeks staight now and has yet to see his Sha touched weapon. Everyone else in the guild eligible to run LFR Terrace has received their sha touched weapon anywhere from their 1st to 3rd attempt including myself. He swears that Blizz has a vendetta against him..lol. I can honestly say that i like the way the loot system is currently set up but i would love to see the option to trade items to the less fortunate players.



Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5

I have 2 Sha touched weapons across 8 toons, staff on the shaman, 2h axe on the warrior.

Regarding Sha touched weapons, don't you think is wrong we are using them? I mean all the Sha is all about anger and fear and all the bad stuff around us and we are no only touching that and using it as a weapon but we are also empowering them with the help of the "good" black prince.

Bad things are going to happen man.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.



Arthas

@comcastbusiness.net

said by Jobbie:

Regarding Sha touched weapons, don't you think is wrong we are using them? I mean all the Sha is all about anger and fear and all the bad stuff around us and we are no only touching that and using it as a weapon but we are also empowering them with the help of the "good" black prince.

Bad things are going to happen man.

Sha touched weapons don't kill toon, toons kill toons. It's not like wielding a weapon is going to make you evil.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5

said by Arthas :

said by Jobbie:

Regarding Sha touched weapons, don't you think is wrong we are using them? I mean all the Sha is all about anger and fear and all the bad stuff around us and we are no only touching that and using it as a weapon but we are also empowering them with the help of the "good" black prince.

Bad things are going to happen man.

Sha touched weapons don't kill toon, toons kill toons. It's not like wielding a weapon is going to make you evil.

Not yet.
--
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.


Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31
reply to Arthas

said by Arthas :

It's not like wielding a weapon is going to make you evil.

Irony is a poster named Arthas saying something like this.....


Arthas

@comcastbusiness.net
reply to Jobbie

said by Jobbie:

said by Arthas :

said by Jobbie:

Regarding Sha touched weapons, don't you think is wrong we are using them? I mean all the Sha is all about anger and fear and all the bad stuff around us and we are no only touching that and using it as a weapon but we are also empowering them with the help of the "good" black prince.

Bad things are going to happen man.

Sha touched weapons don't kill toon, toons kill toons. It's not like wielding a weapon is going to make you evil.

Not yet.

Take it from someone who knows: just be true to your high principles, and you can wield any weapon justly, without, for example, becoming a monstrous threat to take over all of Azeroth with an army of undead.


seaquake
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-23
Millersville, MD
reply to Jobbie

I feel your pain

I only do LFR since they seem to be easier to get through than LFD....and I'm working on the Black Prince's quest for 6K VP. Otherwise, I don't worry about VP and get what I get from normal raiding.