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elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2

Edmonton approves new arena for oilers

Once again the taxpayer gets nailed for paying for a playground for millionaires , and owned by billionaires .

The city of Edmonton has approved a deal in a 10-3 vote for a new Oikers arena (Flames next?).

Edmonton taxpayers will pay $219 million toward the 18,559-seat facility. The Oilers’ share will be $143 million. Another $125 million will come from a ticket tax that wouldn’t exceed seven per cent of the total cost of a ducat. Another $107 million is still being sought from the province, along with $7 million from the feds.

Here comes the fun part, Redford is going on TV tonight to cry poor and say she can't afford campaigns promises. IIRC, the Feds turned down a request from PKP for an arena, and it would be suicide to give cash to Edmonton.

WTF is the taxpayer ponying up in the first place? If Katz wants a new arena, let him build it himself.

I don't recall Bitove getting "free money" for what is now the ACC, but Ontario sure got hosed for the "Doomed Stadium" which Robbers picked up for pennies on the dollar!

»www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/full-c···ey-arena
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


Thane_Bitter
Inquire within

join:2005-01-20

Let them build it, hope Katz moves the team the season after its completed.


bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1

Katz won't move the team, nor would the NHL let him.


zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw
reply to elwoodblues

How can they close the deal when both the Provincial and Federal governments have said they won't fund it?

I lived in Edmonton for a while and I know most people were against publicly funding it (or at least publicly funding it, but letting Katz keep all revenues).

It would seem to me you should probably have the prov. and fed. funding in place before locking in a deal?



Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Thunder Bay, ON
reply to elwoodblues

It's kinda funny, the original deal collapsed when katz demanded an extra 6 million from ratepayers...the new deal adds like $119 million from same.

Makes sense
--
»libertarian.on.ca/



loosedobbs

join:2006-06-13
Toronto
reply to elwoodblues

said by elwoodblues:

Once again the taxpayer gets nailed for paying for a playground for millionaires , and owned by billionaires .

Here comes the fun part, Redford is going on TV tonight to cry poor and say she can't afford campaigns promises. IIRC, the Feds turned down a request from PKP for an arena, and it would be suicide to give cash to Edmonton.

WTF is the taxpayer ponying up in the first place? If Katz wants a new arena, let him build it himself.

I don't recall Bitove getting "free money" for what is now the ACC, but Ontario sure got hosed for the "Doomed Stadium" which Robbers picked up for pennies on the dollar!

»www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/full-c···ey-arena

Good points blues.
This is how its done in Canada. You as in Taxpayers pay for it and owners/players enjoy.
What was surprising that deal was dead and then resurrected again. Got it done.

The city don't have money to fight crime and they have for this.
I am sure the taxpayers will re-elect these morons.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to elwoodblues

on a smaller scale, when the Hunter's purchased the London Knights, they asked the city to build a new facilty...despite a fair amount of opposition (i always thought it was a great idea), the deal eventually passed, and the city spent about $50 million on the John Labatt Centre (now Budweiser Gardens)...it has been an economic boon to the core area and was a fantastic investment (just like i always thought it would be).

of course, a critical component of its success is management, and Global Spectrum does a fantastic job managing the site.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell



J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to loosedobbs

said by loosedobbs:

said by elwoodblues:

Once again the taxpayer gets nailed for paying for a playground for millionaires , and owned by billionaires .

Here comes the fun part, Redford is going on TV tonight to cry poor and say she can't afford campaigns promises. IIRC, the Feds turned down a request from PKP for an arena, and it would be suicide to give cash to Edmonton.

WTF is the taxpayer ponying up in the first place? If Katz wants a new arena, let him build it himself.

I don't recall Bitove getting "free money" for what is now the ACC, but Ontario sure got hosed for the "Doomed Stadium" which Robbers picked up for pennies on the dollar!

»www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/full-c···ey-arena

Good points blues.
This is how its done in Canada. You as in Taxpayers pay for it and owners/players enjoy.
What was surprising that deal was dead and then resurrected again. Got it done.

The city don't have money to fight crime and they have for this.
I am sure the taxpayers will re-elect these morons.

It's how it's done everywhere. Screw the tax payer..and you can betcha that 90% of the population will never be able to get to a game. So basically, 90% funds for a new arena that the richest will only be able to go to. Nice...good deal. Good for the Fed for telling these people to go to hell.

I always wonder, though, why not design arena's and ballparks and football stadium with the idea that it should be usable for at least 70 or 80 years? Rexall Centre is only 39 years old.

Also, can someone explain to me why these places are so expensive to construct? Rexall was built for under $20 million. (about $90 million today? give or take?)

Also, instead of doing it this way, why not: The City of Edmonton gives the Oilers a low interest loan...to be paid back, in its entirety. Oilers get to keep the stadium. Once stadium is paid of (typical 30 year mortgage) They can go back to the city and ask for another loan for their new stadium. They can repeat this process every 30 years, that way, millionaires will never have to work in an old facility, because that would be a bad thing. And the taxpayer technically never has to be forced to pay for this crap.

/rant
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by J E F F:

Also, instead of doing it this way, why not: The City of Edmonton gives the Oilers a low interest loan...to be paid back, in its entirety.

Where do you think the Oilers share is coming from?


Markie
Still Living Free

join:2009-07-11
Thunder Bay, ON
reply to elwoodblues

Hell, the .gov can pay 100% for all i care so long as 'we' own it 100% with all the risk and reward that entails...a far better outcome than the usual back room dealing that comes with these types of playgrounds.
--
»libertarian.on.ca/


JBear

join:2005-02-24
canada
reply to elwoodblues

Wow, a lot of you sound like the big truckin' red necks who live here only worried about fixing potholes and snow removal.

I don't get where you find that the city doesn't have money to fight crime or only the richest will be able to go to a game?

Rexall is also the third oldest NHL arena after Madison Square Garden and Nassau. If we had the population and someone with or without the city had the money to want to build an MSG style arena I'm sure it would mostly be welcomed. Rexall Place was also built with the cheapest design possible and if have ever been inside of it you would see that. It is extremely cramped and the upper seats are incredibly tight. I believe that with the newer arenas popping up that their lifespans will increase pass the 30 year mark as designers, city officials, and tax payers really don't want to go through the hassle of building another arena for a long while.

Rexall Place was ranked 26th busiest arenas in the world (not sure if they counted hockey dates in those numbers).

The arena is a key piece to a downtown revitalization plan, which Edmonton desperately needs.



J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to bt

said by bt:

said by J E F F:

Also, instead of doing it this way, why not: The City of Edmonton gives the Oilers a low interest loan...to be paid back, in its entirety.

Where do you think the Oilers share is coming from?

So just tell the Oilers they can get the entire loan from the city, but they have to pay it back..all of it.

That's what Kitchener did with the Rangers when that hockey team wanted to expand the current digs. (owned by the City of Kitchener) City flat out said, no way. Rangers asked for a loan, city said, "sure, we'll give you the loan, but the place is still 100% ours.." Everyones happy. Glad the city played some tough love and hardball...and wish they did it more often.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to loosedobbs

The US is just as bad, the colts got(getting?) a new stadium courtesy of the taxpayer.

Back in the day, Wayne Hunziaga threatened to move the dolphins unless governments kicked in. Florida had(has) a 5% hotel room tax to pay for sports stadiums.



J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to JBear

A lot of cities need "new" downtown arena's. And stadiums..and what not. That's fine. They need to find different ways of funding it. If an arena really only has a 30 (or 50) -year life span, then starting year 1, you start investing for the new arena.

The problem with arena's is that new ones are always better than the previous new arena's, then you realize all the faults of your arena (stadium). Perfect example is SkyDome (Rogers Centre), the place was "State of the Art" when first opened...within a short time, the faults were obvious, and most would agree that it is no place for sports.

The place cost well over $500,000,000.00 to construct, and was sold for $25,000,000 in the end. (1/20th of cost)....
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein



loosedobbs

join:2006-06-13
Toronto
reply to J E F F

said by J E F F:

said by bt:

said by J E F F:

Also, instead of doing it this way, why not: The City of Edmonton gives the Oilers a low interest loan...to be paid back, in its entirety.

Where do you think the Oilers share is coming from?

So just tell the Oilers they can get the entire loan from the city, but they have to pay it back..all of it.

That's what Kitchener did with the Rangers when that hockey team wanted to expand the current digs. (owned by the City of Kitchener) City flat out said, no way. Rangers asked for a loan, city said, "sure, we'll give you the loan, but the place is still 100% ours.." Everyones happy. Glad the city played some tough love and hardball...and wish they did it more often.

He became billionaire by using Taxpayers or somebody else money.
The province who is in bad financial state is paying 100m.The cities are not in good state. But he is paying his share not up front but by lease money every year.

Jbear is just shooting from behind. He has no clue how this money is allocated. He has not read the details and have no clue even about city budget. To have a new Arena is good thing but it is not Right. It is not must. You can be house poor or live within your means.

And After reading his post I understand which redneck he is talking about...himself.


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2

The city doesn't need an Arena, the Oilers do.
I'm with Jeff, if the arena is such a great thing, goto the bank and borrow the money.

Why is the taxpayer on the hook for cost overruns?
Personally it drives me nuts when a company tenders a job for $X and then (assuming no changes in project scope) come back and say we want $Y because we underbid to get the job.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......



Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to elwoodblues

So, the NHL came off off a near full season strike, and now people want to molly-coddle them again? WTF?

People need to shake their heads, and re-think the fascination with these 'celebrities'. What happens when the next 'strike' hits, and they can't pay for the lease? Oh yea, guess who foots the bill...
--
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots." ~ Albert Einstein



shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
reply to elwoodblues

I don't understand why the city doesn't build the arena and lease dates out to the Oilers...just like the Budweiser Gardens in London.

An arena and other stadiums are part of the city infrastructure, like an art gallery or a concert hall or a museum. They add value for a certain sect of the population. The city should own the building and the team should be renting space out of it. The ancillary revenue from sporting events, concerts and conventions would pay the building mortgage off in no time.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by shaner:

I don't understand why the city doesn't build the arena and lease dates out to the Oilers...just like the Budweiser Gardens in London.

exactly...oddly enough, it's about the only "city project" that has been successful recently...it actually makes the city a fair amount of money directly (revenue sharing) and indirectly (revitalized downtown core area).
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in
kudos:2
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

I don't understand why the city doesn't build the arena and lease dates out to the Oilers...just like the Budweiser Gardens in London.

Some people think the private sector can do a better job, which they can, once the appropriate subsidies have been forwarded.
--
No, I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I... I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake.......


shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

I know it's a considerably smaller market, but the City of London turned to Global Spectrum to manage the JLC/Gardens, and Global Spectrum has turned the arena into one of the most profitable venues in North America with the city benefiting in profits.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budweiser_···nagement

PPP does work, and there's no reason for one party to hold the other one over a barrel.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/



Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2

This is about the funds to build it, first and foremost and who that is coming from.



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by Juggernaut:

This is about the funds to build it, first and foremost and who that is coming from.

in the case the JLC/Budweiser Gardens, the city paid for all of it (about $42 Million for the building itself and $10 Million for the land).


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2

You guys got it for 25% of just the Edmonton taxpayer's portion. $52M vs. $219M. GFY.



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

yes, but it's also much smaller...i don't know how the scale in construction works, but our arena only seats about 9500...that's likely less than half of what an NHL arena will seat.

to give you an idea how well this facility is run, aside from constant sellouts at hockey, we get a lot of great musical acts here...Pearl Jam is coming here later this year...their only two shows in North America are Chicago and here in London.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell



shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

Yeah, the JLC has been consistently recognised as one of the top venues in North America. Location is important too. 2 hours from Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo (well, maybe 3).



Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
reply to dirtyjeffer

I think the OP was 18,900 seats? Damn near exactly half in that case. So, that would be $104M now for yours.

Things that make you go WTF...
--
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots." ~ Albert Einstein



Kitlope

join:2004-07-29
Edmonton, Ab
reply to elwoodblues

Edmonton looks to the Oilers like Sasks look to the Roughriders. Nothing else matters (whether it's morally right or wrong).



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Juggernaut

said by Juggernaut:

I think the OP was 18,900 seats? Damn near exactly half in that case. So, that would be $104M now for yours.

Things that make you go WTF...

i'm not in construction, but i don't think you can simply say "it's twice the size, it should be twice the cost"...there is likely many other things at play there.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell

JBear

join:2005-02-24
canada
reply to J E F F

said by J E F F:

A lot of cities need "new" downtown arena's. And stadiums..and what not. That's fine. They need to find different ways of funding it. If an arena really only has a 30 (or 50) -year life span, then starting year 1, you start investing for the new arena.

The problem with arena's is that new ones are always better than the previous new arena's, then you realize all the faults of your arena (stadium). Perfect example is SkyDome (Rogers Centre), the place was "State of the Art" when first opened...within a short time, the faults were obvious, and most would agree that it is no place for sports.

The place cost well over $500,000,000.00 to construct, and was sold for $25,000,000 in the end. (1/20th of cost)....

I think the saving at year 1 is a great idea but I'm not sure if any municipality can really do that for a variety of political reasons.

Well it's like arenas are kind of like cars or computers. You buy one and tomorrow there is something more powerful with more toys and goodies available. You just have to anticipate your immediate and future needs with experienced designers and cities and make sure you are happy with what you get. I mean, arena's built in the 70's aren't going to last 1000 years so you are going to have to build a new one eventually.

To be honest I was hoping that Katz would build the arena himself and save us all this headache.

loosedobbs See Profile, do you really follow Edmonton politics much or are you just assuming what the city budget is? Do you know if we are not living within our means or is that an assumption? Did you also know that it would cost $200 million dollars (in 2010 dollars) to renovate the cramped and small Rexall Place?

»www.globaltvedmonton.com/report+···ory.html