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leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to uphillclimb

Re: Connection drops on Fusion, but is stable with DSL 1

said by uphillclimb:

am I correct in assuming that I would need 3 "POTS splitters"?

No. If you are using micro (inline) filters you need for each outlet but if you are using a POTS splitter it will handle all the devices attached in your house.

You are right about the common point requirement to install the POTS splitter. Typically that is the NID (the point where the responsibility for the telco ends and the responsibility of the homeowner starts). However alarm systems have that common point requirement too (they need to be able to disconnect all phones inside the house when making an alarm call). It would therefore be extremely unusual if the alarm system isn't the first (and only) device attached to your incoming line at the NID and all the phones (plus currently the DSL modem) connected to the output side of the alarm system interface.

POTS splitters aren't difficult to find but many are still only rated for ADSL (DSL 1). All of the ones I saw on Amazon were the older ones (which may not work as well for frequencies above 1.1MHz). Splitters that are rated for ADSL2+ or VDSL will work for Sonic Fusion. Some come with their own outdoor enclosure while others are designed to fit directly into a matching NID. Since the latter is a lot easier to install, locate your NID and see if you can identify manufacturer and model number of the NID (there are many different types of NIDs and not all are suitable for the convenient plug-in install of a POTS splitter).
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public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA

said by leibold:

said by uphillclimb:

am I correct in assuming that I would need 3 "POTS splitters"?

No. If you are using micro (inline) filters you need for each outlet but if you are using a POTS splitter it will handle all the devices attached in your house.

You should never use "microfilters" with adsl2. These filters create unterminated stubs, and depending on length will create reflections.
Adsl splitters may not be specified at top adsl2 frequencies, but will still have order of magnitude better rejection than the chinese crap "microfilters.

Tobester

join:2000-11-14
San Francisco, CA

Have you considered having Sonic do a Professional Installation where a whole house ADSL2+ compliant splitter is installed at the demarcation point?



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to public

said by public:

Adsl splitters may not be specified at top adsl2 frequencies, but will still have order of magnitude better rejection than the chinese crap "microfilters.

This is correct. I'm still using the old POTS splitters that I had installed for ADSL long before upgrading to Sonic Fusion (the performance of my line is as expected and therefore I'm not in any hurry to replace the splitters). However for a new install (and especially since the OP is trying to maximize the speed of his Internet connection) I would recommend buying correctly rated POTS splitters.

I remember Dane posting that sometimes older POTS splitters gave poor results with ADSL2+.

The suggestion from Tobester See Profile is a good one.
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uphillclimb

join:2013-01-24

Well, from looking at the NID on the outside of my house, it's got a standard RJ11 jack, so I'm assuming a convenient plug-in install would work, if not for the alarm system.

If the alarm system is the first device behind the NID, then I suppose I would have to put the splitter between the NID and the alarm system.

The only problem with this is that the alarm system doesn't seem to use an RJ11 or RJ45 jack. It only uses colored wires that might go into a board like this: »www.amazon.com/BB400-Solderless-···40Z1ERO/

Assuming all this is correct, then I only need to find a splitter compatible with ADSL2 that can take single wires instead of a multi-conductor cable (I'm not sure if this is the right term, but it's what you might see in a phone line that runs from your telephone to an RJ11 phone jack). Do such splitters even exist? It doesn't have to be on Amazon; any reputable online store would do.

As for the Sonic.net professional installation, I wasn't aware they offered such a service. If they do, would they be allowed to tinker with the alarm system for the sole purpose of installing a splitter (or filter) behind it?

Finally, if I fail to find a splitter, would a filter be installed in a similar manner? I assume I would need 1 filter for the alarm system and 1 for each of the phones. But finding a filter compatible with ADSL2 that takes basic wires instead of multi-conductor cables has proven to be a challenge.



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
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said by uphillclimb:

If the alarm system is the first device behind the NID, then I suppose I would have to put the splitter between the NID and the alarm system.

That is correct.

said by uphillclimb:

Well, from looking at the NID on the outside of my house, it's got a standard RJ11 jack, so I'm assuming a convenient plug-in install would work, if not for the alarm system.

No it is not that simple. The fact that you have an NID with RJ-11 test jack is good (some still have the old line protectors without test jack) but as I said before there are different makes and models and not all will fit POTS splitters (my NID didn't and therefore I have two separate outdoor POTS splitters mounted next to it).

The advantage of having an NID that can house the POTS splitter is that you don't need to mount an additional outdoor enclosure next to the NID with wires between the two. A downside is that it limits you in the choice of POTS splitter to those made specifically for your NID. Having the POTS splitter installed inside the NID does not eliminate any of the wiring requirements (just makes it easier due to the close proximity with the existing wires). POTS splitters are made in many different styles with all sorts of different terminations (many have screw terminals for the wires, some have RJ-11 jacks and others have IDC punch-down terminals).

POTS splitters and microfilters perform similar functions and in principle it is possible to use a microfilter instead of a splitter. The two issues are:
- a microfilter is designed for the load of a single device (phone, fax, etc.) while the POTS splitter is designed to handle the load of all devices in your home.
- the filter characteristics of a POTS splitter are generally far better then those of a microfilter.

What you definitely cannot do is trying to put a microfilter in front of your alarm system with your existing home wiring. Since currently your modem is after the alarm system you would block all the DSL signals and get no (or extremely poor) connectivity.


You have:

phone1 --- filter ---\
phone2 --- filter ----*---(inhouse wiring)--- alarm --- NID
modem ---------------/

In this (common) scenario the DSL signal spreads throughout the entire inhouse wiring with the alarm system as well as reflections at unused outlets causing some interference.


You want:

phone1 ----*---- (inhouse wiring) --- alarm --- (voice) splitter (network) --- NID
phone2 ---/ |(data)
modem -----------------(new twisted pair cable) ---------/

In the ideal scenario you split the analog voice portion of the phone line from the DSL signals as soon as possible after the NID (but definitely before the alarm system). This keeps the DSL signal out of your old inhouse wiring and creates a clean path for those signals from the NID to your DSL modem.

Depending on your specific situation and how your home was originally wired you may not have to run a new twisted pair cable. If your inhouse wiring is Cat 3 or Cat 5 twisted pair cable and all outlets are wired as separate runs you should be able to identify the one going to the DSL modem and reuse it.

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Tobester

join:2000-11-14
San Francisco, CA
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

Dear UpHillClimb,

In re-reading this thread you don't mention what kind of telephone wire you have in your house?

Like Leibold has suggested, using Cat 3 or Cat 5 twisted pair cable will definitely give the best results.

Years ago I discovered my place is wired with the typical the Radio Shack type two parallel pair telephone wire (non-twisted) and every time I received a call on my second line, my ADSL suffered or would disconnect due to interference.

I solved the problem by running a CAT5 drop line from the NID directly to my computer, bypassing the in wall telephone wire completely. Is this a possibility for you?

If so, educate yourself about proper CAT5 installation procedures such as avoiding electrical boxes and rounding the diameter of turns like a Coke-Cola can

Also, I can confirm from experience switching from a Covad installed ADSL splitter to a Sonic installed ADSL2+ splitter increased my speeds significantly.


public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA

said by Tobester:

Also, I can confirm from experience switching from a Covad installed ADSL splitter to a Sonic installed ADSL2+ splitter increased my speeds significantly.

That is likely due to some installation error, or the unlikely case of a defective splitter.

uphillclimb

join:2013-01-24
reply to leibold

Thanks for all that information. leibold, your diagram was particularly helpful in getting a picture of what I need to be doing. I'll check the model/manufacturer of my NID soon. Any suggestions on how to locate a proper splitter after I find that information?

As for the telephone wire, I must admit I lack knowledge in this area. I do know about the theoretical aspects of cancelling interference using twisted pair. However, I find it a bit difficult to picture how I would install a new line myself. Doesn't the wire weave a complicated path throughout the walls in my house? How do I take out such a long wire and install a new one myself? Wouldn't I need at least 50 or 100 feet of cable? It would seem I need to be at most the size of a rat as I crawl through the walls, pulling cable behind me. The only way I can picture it being simpler than that is if there is a large "common" coil of wire that reaches every outlet, and installing a new wire simply means hooking up to that coil.

Anyways, in the meantime, I'm going to read up on how to install a phone line. If I get this working, it could prove to be a very educational experience.



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET

said by uphillclimb:

Any suggestions on how to locate a proper splitter after I find that information?

Since there were no POTS splitters that fit my NID I never tried shopping for one of those. My first POTS splitter (I have two lines) was made by Alcatel and came from a professional install back in the early days of DSL. The second POTS splitter I bought myself but it too is a generic model (Siecor, Corning, tii network technologies) with its own outdoor enclosure.

As for the distance to bridge and the difficulty to run new twisted pair cables each home is different. Sometimes a long cable run can turn out to be really easy and another time a short distance can appear insurmountable with difficulties. I was able to drill through the floor boards and run a cable through the crawlspace. Other people find it easier to run a cable through the attic or bring it along the outside of the house to the room of their choice.

If you are lucky you may have twisted pair cable already in your home and can re-purpose one of the pairs (since a phone line and a dsl line only require one pair each). While that may sound much easier then running a new cable, beware that you probably don't know how that existing cable is run throughout the home. Existing phone cables are often installed in the same daisy-chain fashion as electrical outlets. While that is fine for electricity, each splicing/termination at the outlets causes losses in the DSL signal. Also bad are dead ends of twisted pair cable runs (a portion of the DSL signal gets reflected back and interferes with itself). It can be far more work fixing up existing home wiring then installing a new twisted pair cable (it all depends on your specific situation).
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uphillclimb

join:2013-01-24

I just took another look at your diagram, and I realized that no matter where I plug the splitter in, I will still have to run a wire to my modem, which, given the way my place is built, is quite a bit of trouble.

I'm willing to accept a less than ideal solution. If I can install a filter for the alarm system, I should at least prevent the connection from dropping at ADSL2 speeds, even if I won't be maxing the potential of my line because the DSL signal will be spread around.

How does an ADSL2 filter for an alarm system that has no jacks of any kind look like? Can I buy one on the market?