Topic 'CNOC speed matching decision due next week' in forum 'TekSavvy' - dslreports.com

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:07:31 EDT

mikee posted : Thanks for the update. :D

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 08:27:43 EDT

TSI Marc posted : Working on it gang.. Should hopefully have an agreement with Rogers soon.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 07:18:11 EDT

mikee posted : Hmm but Marc wrote that he would give a plan within 1-2 weeks. It's now 2 weeks the plan is more a TSI plan not really anything to do with the CRTC. When they will become AGG or start becoming AGG. I will quote his post so you can see what I am talking about incase I misread it.

quote:
Ottawa is getting looked at first due to capacity on existing TPIA network that would require additional facilities that we know will not get used once migrated...

I have to say though, if you feel the need to move on. That's entirely your choice.. The situation is what it is... I don't think it would have been realistic to change sooner.. We only knew about this speed matching thing in December... Until then we had until the end of this year with no real reason to rush past that.. And considering everything else that needed attention.. We were focused on the most important issues... Now that we know, we will do what we can to accelerate the process. Maybe it's possible to move more quickly.. We'll have to see how it goes. Once the plan is more firmly set, I'll update everybody here. I'm hoping that we'll have that plan set in the next week or two.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:05:47 EDT

MrMazda86 posted :

said by mikee:

Any update on the plan? Been just about 2 weeks. You might have posted it & I didn't see it. Hopefully you can update us soon :D

I wish... This is the CRTC we're talking about. Like many other government agencies, their definition of "within 3 - 5 business days" really means "within 3 - 5 calendar months" usually. Then again, this is our lovely government at work for ya.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:25:24 EDT

mikee posted : Any update on the plan? Been just about 2 weeks. You might have posted it & I didn't see it. Hopefully you can update us soon :D

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:16:55 EDT

resa1983 posted :

said by InvalidError:

said by HeadSpinning:

The only reason Bell would have to build a separate aggregation network would be to avoid using an "All Carriers" approach to their cost studies - it is neither technically or economically efficient.

The CRTC's rate-setting process does not reward technical nor economic efficiency.

But they do look for (and find) gaming of the cost studies process. :)
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:20:12 EDT

InvalidError posted :

said by HeadSpinning:

The only reason Bell would have to build a separate aggregation network would be to avoid using an "All Carriers" approach to their cost studies - it is neither technically or economically efficient.

The CRTC's rate-setting process does not reward technical nor economic efficiency.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 06:58:19 EDT

HeadSpinning posted :

said by Guspaz:

$8k would be a disappointment, but it would still be an improvement. Some ISPs reported being borderline or even a bit unprofitable at the previous rate ($22k for Bell, I believe it was?), so dropping that to $8k should mean that they can be profitable at their current pricing, perhaps even with a modest price drop. It also means that they can introduce those high-speed packages they've been holding out on (like 50/10), since they'll at least have a final CBB rate to base the business case on.

Even at $8k, a 50/10 unlimited service would likely be difficult to offer. Add that to the traffic management nightmare of trying to balance a bunch of 1G AHSSPI links.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 06:54:50 EDT

HeadSpinning posted :

said by InvalidError:

said by HeadSpinning:

I suspect $8k/Gbps will be the low end of the possible range. It could be as high as $12k/Gbps.

8k$/Gbps (Telus' former AHSSPI rate) is near the optimistic end of my range too.

When I tried guesstimating how much incumbents could charge for aggregation if they built an entire new network for that explicit purpose, I came up with figures as high as 35k$/Gbps.

The only reason Bell would have to build a separate aggregation network would be to avoid using an "All Carriers" approach to their cost studies - it is neither technically or economically efficient.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:08:15 EDT

resa1983 posted :

said by brad:

said by Guspaz:

It also means that they can introduce those high-speed packages they've been holding out on (like 50/10), since they'll at least have a final CBB rate to base the business case on.

Holding out on 50/10? It just came out. Is there even a wholesale tariff filed for the speed tier? It's more like offering 25/10 for a lot of the IISPs or making it profitable for the few that do now.

Yes, it was filed already - January 28, 2013.
»www.crtc.gc.ca/public/8740/2013/···9770.zip
(per »www.crtc.gc.ca/8740/eng/2013/b2.htm)

"The service will be launched on 11 February 2013."
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:25:54 EDT

brad posted :

said by Guspaz:

It also means that they can introduce those high-speed packages they've been holding out on (like 50/10), since they'll at least have a final CBB rate to base the business case on.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Mon, 11 Feb 2013 15:35:45 EDT

Jaxom posted :

said by TSI Marc:

That's what will determine any price changes if any.

We have had a lot of price increases lately. Would rather keep my 28 speed with no price increase thanks.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Mon, 11 Feb 2013 10:34:17 EDT

Guspaz posted : $8k would be a disappointment, but it would still be an improvement. Some ISPs reported being borderline or even a bit unprofitable at the previous rate ($22k for Bell, I believe it was?), so dropping that to $8k should mean that they can be profitable at their current pricing, perhaps even with a modest price drop. It also means that they can introduce those high-speed packages they've been holding out on (like 50/10), since they'll at least have a final CBB rate to base the business case on.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:32:13 EDT

InvalidError posted :

said by HeadSpinning:

I suspect $8k/Gbps will be the low end of the possible range. It could be as high as $12k/Gbps.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 18:59:14 EDT

HeadSpinning posted :

said by InvalidError:

said by Perma:

Will this decision determine whether start.ca can offer unlimited bandwidth?

They can already do that if they wanted hard enough but the price point likely would not generate many sales.

I am not expecting the CBB hearings to bring the CBB rates anywhere near as low as people here hope they will go, at least not without revised (increased) per-access rates. I am betting on rates around 8k$/Gbps, which is 50-70% less than current rates but still 4-6X more what some people around here are hoping for.

I suspect $8k/Gbps will be the low end of the possible range. It could be as high as $12k/Gbps.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:23:53 EDT

InvalidError posted :

said by Perma:

Will this decision determine whether start.ca can offer unlimited bandwidth?

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 08:44:34 EDT

Perma posted : Will this decision determine whether start.ca can offer unlimited bandwidth?

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 07:59:54 EDT

resa1983 posted :

said by sunnyd71:

said by resa1983:

said by Kewjoe:

My understanding is Teksavvy gained access to the 32 and 75 profiles recently but it's not worth upgrading the infrastructure to offer those speeds. Reason being the move to aggregate would make that investment mostly wasted.

This. Teksavvy is already in process of figuring the schedule with Rogers to convert everything to Aggregated, and following the new Capacity Based Billing rates which should be out sometime this month, Teksavvy may be more able to afford to offer the higher speeds without going broke.

As it is now, if someone were to purchase the 150/10 package on aggregated, Teksavvy wouldn't be able to come close to matching Rogers' price for it due to the ~$1200/100mbps price on capacity.

Are we sure the CBB pricing decision is coming this/next month? I've been looking for any indication of this and I can't find it. Can you provide more info?

Just rumours.
Nothing this upcoming week because of the wireless code of conduct hearings tho.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 00:29:07 EDT

simsin0 posted : yea any updates on the dates. Can't wait for some more speed!

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 09 Feb 2013 21:01:06 EDT

sunnyd71 posted :

said by resa1983:

said by Kewjoe:

Are we sure the CBB pricing decision is coming this/next month? I've been looking for any indication of this and I can't find it. Can you provide more info?

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Thu, 07 Feb 2013 03:06:30 EDT

Davesnothere posted :

said by koreyb:

....I know a lot of people with D2 modems.. almost every one has issues during peak.

My point was, D2 modems are obsolete, and to sell a D2 modem and the headache that comes with it to keep it working properly in highly populated areas especially, is not fair or right for lower tech customers.

It leaves very bad taste of the ISP, as most think this is an issue with the ISP, not the technology they are using. Look at these forums, and you will see this. Rogers refuses to give anyone over 15mb a d2 modem at this point, so it's time they do the same for the new speed tiers on TPIA.

You may not like it, but D2's days are over. Moving forward TSI knowing this is coming, should pick up a cheaper D3 modem like Acanac and others have, for people on a budget, but stop selling D2 - as well warn people with D2, they may experience slow downs during peak....

Hear, Hear !

I preach this sermon every chance that I get.

It is false economy for customers to save a few bucks up front by choosing a D2 modem, and ISPs should stop offering them, EVEN to folks who choose a lower speed tier and swear that they will never ask to upgrade.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 22:49:43 EDT

Davesnothere posted :

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by TwiztedZero:

Impatience is a good reason, if you have a terminal illness and are on your deathbed right this very moment.

Yeah, but the install....after 3 missed appointments by the tech ... will kill ya.

Either way, please accept my advance condolences. ;)

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 22:46:52 EDT

Davesnothere posted :

said by TSI Marc:

said by veriphone:

Marc,
Speaking of Cogeco ATPIA when can one sign up for that service, see available packages, speeds, etc.? I am in Cogeco territory and am very interested in the long delayed Cogeco deal....

Well that's the thing.. the CBB rates are completely retarded as they are now with Cogeco... so our ability to do up packages that make sense just isn't there. i.e. the packages I would make right now, you wouldn't want to buy them and I'd look bad just for offering them!

I mean.. I could offer our lower offering maybe....

[I have not read ahead after Page 11 to see whether this has already been answered - my apologies if it has.]

Marc, that's understandable, your reasons for holding back.

OTOH, if you DID right now bring to market some packages for GOUGEco areas, would the caps and prices still be better than whatever Cogeco's own retail plans are ?

--

We have only 2 things about which to worry :
(1) That things may never get back to normal
(2) That they already HAVE !

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 15:34:07 EDT

MaynardKrebs posted :

said by TwiztedZero:

Impatience is a good reason, if you have a terminal illness and are on your deathbed right this very moment.

Yeah, but the install....after 3 missed appointments by the tech ... will kill ya.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 14:56:02 EDT
TwiztedZero posted : Impatience is a good reason, if you have a terminal illness and are on your deathbed right this very moment.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 14:46:53 EDT
Teddy Boom posted : Hopefully people don't go crazy switching from one TPIA to another. It costs all the TPIAs a lot of money, and disrupts the network. Of course if you have good reasons, switch to whatever suits you best, but... impatience isn't a good reason ;)
--
electronicsguru.ca

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 14:28:23 EDT
TwiztedZero posted : - (9 months), and ATPIA transitions is allready underway, Feb/March according to Marc's statements in the other thread; though it'll be a while before we start seeing things on the customer end; plus we're waiting still for the CBB decision on the tariffs later this month or early next month. I'm confident we'll all be shunted over to ATPIA long before we're anywheres near November.
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 12:17:16 EDT
Tristan posted : Not surprised about the decision. The speed-matching rules, as I understood them, were pretty clear, and as much as some/most people will hate it, this ruling was the correct ruling.

I'm glad Teksavvy and Rogers are working towards getting the aggregated POI's set up. November 15 2013 is still a fair ways away (10 months), and while many people will hang tight and stay with Teksavvy, lots will be leaving for iISP's using aggregated POI's to get the faster speeds sooner. Hopefully it happens sooner.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 11:33:41 EDT
resa1983 posted :
said by Kewjoe:
My understanding is Teksavvy gained access to the 32 and 75 profiles recently but it's not worth upgrading the infrastructure to offer those speeds. Reason being the move to aggregate would make that investment mostly wasted.

This. Teksavvy is already in process of figuring the schedule with Rogers to convert everything to Aggregated, and following the new Capacity Based Billing rates which should be out sometime this month, Teksavvy may be more able to afford to offer the higher speeds without going broke.

As it is now, if someone were to purchase the 150/10 package on aggregated, Teksavvy wouldn't be able to come close to matching Rogers' price for it due to the ~$1200/100mbps price on capacity.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 11:26:05 EDT
Kewjoe posted : My understanding is Teksavvy gained access to the 32 and 75 profiles recently but it's not worth upgrading the infrastructure to offer those speeds. Reason being the move to aggregate would make that investment mostly wasted.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 11:20:28 EDT
anon posted : I don't understand the speed changes after aggregate, who currently has 32, or 75 download with teksavvy, i thought their highest package is 28/1 which is what i have. How does one get access to the 32 or 75 service?

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 10:31:06 EDT
londoner1 posted : Sorry I should have read my post prior to posting...I replied to a post from Marc stating that the CBB decision that is outstanding is one that they and other independent ISP's are eagerly awaiting

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 10:20:48 EDT
resa1983 posted :
said by londoner1:
When is this decision expected?

Would you have a link to the CRTC website on the open 'issue'

Its out already.
Denied.
The only good thing is that Rogers (and now all incumbents) have to file download and upload speeds in Tariffs, and Rogers has to file tariffs for all optional speed packages - ie 45/7 they weren't offering TPIA in already upgraded areas.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 10:06:31 EDT
londoner1 posted : When is this decision expected?

Would you have a link to the CRTC website on the open 'issue'

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sun, 03 Feb 2013 18:17:35 EDT
InvalidError posted :
said by travisc:
the reality is they're very likely not losing money.
Like any infrastructure investment of this nature, it does take ~15 years to get a return on investment so I'm guessing people who say Google is selling "at a loss" are forgetting about that.

Infrastructure is a labor-intensive long-term investment. There will be profit (unless Google screw themselves), it is just 10-15 years down the road.

If someone considers only the early months of infrastructure investments then every significant infrastructure investment ever made will look like colossal "losses" since the rewards are out of the time frame being looked at.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sun, 03 Feb 2013 10:32:15 EDT
travisc posted : As a public company, Google can't just claim it's not being sold at a loss when it is. There are securities regulations that would cause them big problems for doing such a thing. I know the tinfoil hatters would like to believe their own nonsense that it's a giant conspiracy to steal your information, the reality is they're very likely not losing money.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:26:02 EDT
InvalidError posted :
said by jmck:
again it's benefitting them to say it's not being sold at a loss. assuming it is then it's likely being sold at an even cost which isn't proving anything.
At $70/month with no speed guarantees, I think it is pretty safe to conclude that they will eventually be making a fair profit on it. Similar service in Hong Kong costs as little as $35/month and in Japan you can have it for ~$50/month in some areas.

As far as KC "funding" Google Fiber, the only conditions Google had were free access to easements and the city generally staying out of Google's way. Local incumbents did try to have GF shut down by saying free easement was an unfair advantage.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 22:55:54 EDT
resa1983 posted : The city owns all the right of ways, and has allowed Google access to all the poles and such for free.

They're essentially giving Google Carte Blanche.

Those who want google fiber installed pay for it. for the free 5mbps, you pay $300 to install. If you go on a monthly plan, they waive the install fee.

They're also getting money from the neighbourhood 'rallies' (people vote on which neighbourhood gets it next). To sign up to vote costs $10.
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 21:21:41 EDT
jmck posted :
said by Guspaz:
Google is on the record as saying it's not being sold at a loss.

again it's benefitting them to say it's not being sold at a loss. assuming it is then it's likely being sold at an even cost which isn't proving anything.

the big cost from fiber to the home is the installation/last mile infrastructure (not the actual bandwidth) and the install fee cannot cover that. it could be that city of KC or some other org is funding it and Google isn't counting that as their 'cost'.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 21:09:44 EDT
TypeS posted : Unless they reveal all the costs associated with rolling out fiber on poles, running the into homes, installing in home, building their edge ip network, etc., it is simply just their word saying its not being sold at a loss.

And like other companies, they just reveal total profits for the company in financial reports, so those don't indicate much. Google's primary business is mining data, selling that data to advertisers and selling space to advertisers.

Look no further then Google's Android OS, they developed it and then just give it away to OEMs.

Comparing Google's fibre project in Kansas city to convential ISPs is not really is like comparing apples to oranges. I predict the Google's fibre rolling out to the masses to fizzle like Verizon's FIOS did when it first arrived in the States many, many years ago.
--
[img] »/im/103954564/64554.png [/img]

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 20:36:16 EDT
Guspaz posted : Google is on the record as saying it's not being sold at a loss.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:58:01 EDT
jmck posted : while this isn't really the thread for it, Google is selling it at a loss and generally all their products at a loss too as long as it enables them to collect data off you and sell it or feed you ads.

they also are very interested in disrupting current broadband markets in the US and likely just using it as a scare tactic.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:56:09 EDT
InvalidError posted :
said by Dones:
Holy shit! Makes you wonder how Google is offering 1Gb for $70. That Google fibre sounds sexy.
Google Fiber is 1Gbps only between the subscriber and Google's edge equipment. Beyond that, speeds vary wildly and even more so if you go beyond Google's own network.

Not quite the same provisioning burden as aggregated or dedicated links where ISPs and clients usually expect to be able to push links to full speed at any time of day for however long they need.

High speeds are much cheaper to offer when they come with minimal (if any) performance guarantees.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:44:03 EDT
Dones posted :
said by InvalidError:
said by brad:
Last time I checked $8k/Gbps is much cheaper than $26k/$22k/Gbps...
Cheaper, yes. But still nowhere near as cheap as the 1-2k$/Gbps many people here are hoping for and 8k$/Gbps is near the optimistic end of my guess range.

Holy shit! Makes you wonder how Google is offering 1Gb for $70. That Google fibre sounds sexy.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:17:36 EDT
InvalidError posted :
said by brad:
Last time I checked $8k/Gbps is much cheaper than $26k/$22k/Gbps...
Cheaper, yes. But still nowhere near as cheap as the 1-2k$/Gbps many people here are hoping for and 8k$/Gbps is near the optimistic end of my guess range.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:07:28 EDT
TwiztedZero posted :
said by brad:
said by InvalidError:
With the much more efficient "packing" by aggregating everything on 10G links instead of individual 1Gbps virtual circuits, TSI would likely be able to get away with somewhat fewer 10G links than what their projected total of 1G links would dictate. They only need to aim for equal or more if most of their 1G links happen to frequently hit their peaks at the same time, which should be very uncommon.

There is no point in reducing the amount of capacity between TSI and Rogers when they'll end up just going up to that level of required capacity very quickly anyway, especially with the increased coverage and the new speed tiers.

I'm inclined to concurr on this assessment. :)
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:22:38 EDT
anon posted :
said by resa1983:
said by NBomb:
When's the CBB decision due, anyway?

There is no due date or anything..

But a bunch of us have been hearing rumors that it'll be out by end of Feb.

Supposed to be in 2012-2013 for what appears to be the 703 file
»www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/backgrnd/plan2012.htm

And a review of costing for wholesale in 2013-2014 (file #??).

Ref:
»Re: The end of ####?

So I think the best we came up with, with those in the "know" and what we regular pee-ons know, was 703 being looked at in Nov-Dec-Jan with some sort of ruling coming out in Jan-Feb.

With Bell giving unlimited all of a sudden after calling their customers thieves (more or less), seems to me they may have advanced knowledge that this is completed, the decision rendered, and now just waiting for it to be released.

Best guess.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:45:40 EDT
brad posted :
said by InvalidError:
With the much more efficient "packing" by aggregating everything on 10G links instead of individual 1Gbps virtual circuits, TSI would likely be able to get away with somewhat fewer 10G links than what their projected total of 1G links would dictate. They only need to aim for equal or more if most of their 1G links happen to frequently hit their peaks at the same time, which should be very uncommon.

There is no point in reducing the amount of capacity between TSI and Rogers when they'll end up just going up to that level of required capacity very quickly anyway, especially with the increased coverage and the new speed tiers.

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:40:28 EDT
brad posted :
said by InvalidError:
As for the CBB R&V, I would not expect rates to go lower than 8k$/Gbps... at least not without some of the costs getting shuffled back into the per-sub access fees.

Last time I checked $8k/Gbps is much cheaper than $26k/$22k/Gbps...

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:27:53 EDT
dillyhammer posted :
said by resa1983:
said by NBomb:
When's the CBB decision due, anyway?

There is no due date or anything..

But a bunch of us have been hearing rumors that it'll be out by end of Feb.

2013?

:D

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged