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RolteC
The Need for Speed
join:2001-05-20
New York, NY

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Re: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...

Oh yeah, its bad tonight, and going to get worse with EVERYONE being on the internet. Most likely the same deal all day tomorrow.

Its not just inside Verizon's network, its also their routers connecting to other locations. Especially Alter.net which is their main provider for serving their network.

The trace route is to a friend just across the Hudson. Double the normal ping, speeds also nothing between us. So what is the excuse here??????????

Tracing route to pool-108-50-226-22.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net [108.50.226.22]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
 
  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  [192.168.1.1]
  2     3 ms     1 ms     1 ms  L.NYCMNY-VFTTP-.verizon-gni.net [71]
  3    11 ms     9 ms    11 ms  G0-1-1-3.NYCMNY-LCR-22.verizon-gni.net [130.81.188.72]
  4     7 ms     6 ms     5 ms  so-5-0-0-0.NY5030-BB-RTR1.verizon-gni.net [130.81.22.18]
  5    43 ms    22 ms    14 ms  xe-3-0-6-0.NWRK-BB-RTR1.verizon-gni.net [130.81.23.187]
  6    27 ms    18 ms    21 ms  B100.NWRKNJ-LCR-21.verizon-gni.net [130.81.209.155]
  7     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  8    32 ms    24 ms    31 ms  pool-108-50-226-.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net [108.50.226.]
 
Trace complete.
 
RolteC

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Click for full size
How much worse can it get?
All different types of networks. Congestion at different levels at almost all the same time spread across almost all of Verizon, internal and their peers.

Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY

Smith6612

MVM

That is a pretty awful smokeping to Optimum Lightpath.

I'm still waiting to hear what's going on. It seems like no one I've asked has a clue as to why or what is doing this.
RolteC
The Need for Speed
join:2001-05-20
New York, NY

RolteC

Member

I just changed IP's and instantly both ways to opt online and light path, my ping went from 90's to high 20's.

Same routing.

What the hell?

Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
·Charter
Ubee EU2251
Ubiquiti UAP-IW-HD
Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-HD

Smith6612

MVM

Is the routing the exact same to the dot? If your IP changed you're likely going down different circuits/ports while going through essentially the same route. Try looking at the beginning of the names in the traces, they sometimes clue into this.

Also, might want to consider checking reverse traceroutes/pings to see what the return path is like too.
Xtreme2damax
join:2007-03-21
Port Byron, NY

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Really slow tonight. Using Google public dns helps somewhat but still is slow overall. Online gaming, streaming video out of the question for tonight.
jk111
join:2013-01-27

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Click for full size
5:47 PM today, same issues. Here's a traceroute to google
Xtreme2damax
join:2007-03-21
Port Byron, NY

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I'm still experiencing major lag and lag spikes. I was just playing my game online and a huge lag spike completely froze me for around a minute or two.

Seriously Verizon, you need to look into this and fix your shoddy network, it's been a damn month already with no resolution.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish

Premium Member

You can vent all you like, its not a Verizon's issue, its the peering points with is the down stream network limitation

Looks like the days of lag free internet are over when all the kiddies go to play their games
guppy_fish

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Nothing wrong in the trace router to Google except to show the Google peering point in nyc is a choke point ( Googles issue, not Verizon )

And using an Non-Verizon DNS will hammer routing as it bypasses Verizon's preferred routing
McBane
join:2008-08-22
Wylie, TX

McBane

Member

This happens (and was predicted on this forum here when Verizon first announced their "Quantum" tiers) any time Verizon ups the FiOS network speeds. Their backbone capacity is never up to par for the FiOS speed upgrades and it takes them 4 to 6 months to fix all their capacity and peering issues.
jk111
join:2013-01-27

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I don't know how you can say it's not a Verizon issue. Earlier traceroutes I've posted show timeouts at verizon peering points, as well as alter peering points, and alter (MCI) is owned by Verizon now. This is a Verizon issue.
Expand your moderator at work
hubrisnxs
join:2009-12-30
Fountain Valley, CA

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Re: [Northeast] High pings / bad routing...

I found this email, maybe try shooting them an email with all your traceroutes, and see what course of action they can take or what direction they point you in. This is more for the folks with latency and time outs to TINET's 'tinet-gw.customer' peering point

peering@tinet.net.--

»drpeering.net/workshops/ ··· uses.pdf

This looks like an SLA for Peering points between several providers including verizon and TINET

It also shows verizon is using OC192's which is just a MAMMOTH connection.

Mahalo
join:2000-12-20
united state

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For just the sake of comparing things, do a search for "looking glass server" and compare their results to yours. At least you will get an idea if it is an issue localized to VZ or seen by other carriers as well. It may also help you set your expectations.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

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said by jk111:

I don't know how you can say it's not a Verizon issue. Earlier traceroutes I've posted show timeouts at verizon peering points, as well as alter peering points, and alter (MCI) is owned by Verizon now. This is a Verizon issue.

I've tried to explain you can't use ping for diagnostics, no one listens
I've tried to explain peering, people don't get it

Verizon isn't the issue, its the paths outside of the network which continually show up at the peering points, meaning your going from Verizons network, which is vastly larger in capacity to any other network ( in capacity ) in the US, to smaller networks, that can't handle the traffic

YouTube/Google is all messed up with the volume of traffic they don't have the peering to support the requests, HD support only makes things worse

Gaming sites are low budget and are constantly getting hosed by over subscription

The bottom line is, the internet has now matches our highway system for performance, when everyone get on it, there are area's that get traffic jams

There are intermittent times within Verizon do have slowdowns, usually a failed router or router table opps maybe a fiber line got cut, but almost all the time it's out Verizon's network.

The issue isn't Verizon, its the expectation that you can get low latency connections to anywhere, anytime .. that is gone forever, well until they implement for pay QOS, so your "important" traffic get priority for a hefty fee .. coming to a bill near you sometime this decade.

If you still believe I'm wrong, I encourage you to switch to you favorite alternative internet provider .. you then will realize its a much bigger issue then Verizon
jk111
join:2013-01-27

jk111

Member

I have a Comcast connection as well and never experience the issues im having with Verizon, specifically horrible Youtube streaming. And yes, I check at the same time during the day.

Mahalo
join:2000-12-20
united state

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Hulk Smash!!!!
While guppy_fish may be dealing with some anger issues right now, I do agree with some of his statements.

Xtreme2damax, you were complaining about TW a while back on the same issue. What are you expecting?

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

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Less traffic on Comcast -to- Google peering, mostly due to much lower average last mile connections speeds

Verizon users, now with the slowest tier of 50mbs can suck the Google peering point dry ...
guppy_fish

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said by Mahalo:

Hulk Smash!!!!
While guppy_fish may be dealing with some anger issues right now

No anger here , I'll just keep posting facts, maybe one day someone will listen

Brak
@verizon.net

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Here is a traffic graph I noticed in a router I just installed that is on FiOS...

»www.dropbox.com/s/epgozq ··· .php.png

Interesting +100ms spike that never left one random day last week. Not sure what is going on.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

guppy_fish

Premium Member

What are you tracing / ping to/from?
hubrisnxs
join:2009-12-30
Fountain Valley, CA

hubrisnxs

Member

dead link for me
Xtreme2damax
join:2007-03-21
Port Byron, NY

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My complaints with Time Warner were due to having around 30ms - 50ms pings to a local server, that was the only issue. With Fios as long as there are no ping spikes my ping is half of what I was getting with Time Warner. My issue with Time Warner was not ping spikes, nothing like what I am currently experiencing with Fios. I am getting lag spikes so severe with Fios that my ping will shoot up to 75ms - 100ms+ and stay there for a while, lag spikes that completely freeze me ingame when they occur. Makes gaming online frustrating, when my ping decides to spike I usually decide to wait until the next day to play, making sure I get online earlier in the day.

Mahalo
join:2000-12-20
united state

Mahalo

Member

So Ken I., if I was VZ I would I wouldnt do anything either. To me you have not built a case about the issue. Put the emulation game stuff down for a bit and really research it to understand it and build your case. Yelling Fix It wont get it done.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· RSL4wpcY
serge87
join:2009-11-29
New York

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said by guppy_fish:

Less traffic on Comcast -to- Google peering, mostly due to much lower average last mile connections speeds

Verizon users, now with the slowest tier of 50mbs can suck the Google peering point dry ...

So now it IS Verizon's fault(due in part to the "Quantum" tiers)? I thought it was 100% the cheap peering partners that weren't meeting their end of the peering agreement in every single case?

All these complaints about horrible latency and packet loss didn't exist on this forum 90 days ago(roughly Nov-Dec 2012)! If the new mantra is that the 'Internet is growing and we must accept it' I'd like to know how could it have changed so drastically in a matter of weeks? :scratches head: It's like someone flipped a switch and here we are a few months later...
jk111
join:2013-01-27

jk111

Member

Like you said, these issues I'm having with Verizon were non-existant until about a month ago.

guppy_fish
Premium Member
join:2003-12-09
Palm Harbor, FL

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said by serge87:

So now it IS Verizon's fault(due in part to the "Quantum" tiers)? I thought it was 100% the cheap peering partners that weren't meeting their end of the peering agreement in every single case?

All these complaints about horrible latency and packet loss didn't exist on this forum 90 days ago

Verizon unleashed potentially 2-4X more bandwidth demand by their 4 million or so FIOS customers, the content sources can't handle the demand at peak times, yes its IS the content source or their ISP and up chain that's the limit, nothing in the FIOS network

You also have things like Netflix, its reported that by the end of the year video streaming ( primarily Nextflix and YouTube ) will by over 50% of the peak traffic, every one comes home and starts watching some sort of video content, this has been increasing at a rate that WILL break the internet as we know it

We have passed a tipping point, its not Verizon in anyway, their network is the single largest network in the US by capacity, the internet and the peering arrangements are not keeping up with demand, which is primarily caused by NetFlix, YouTube and Skype, which has supplanted about 20% of the voice minutes ( measured in billions )

The Internet model was everyone shared in the cost, now you have a few content sources that are disproportionally only pushing bits, its isn't going to work forever and your seeing first hand a global issue that peering is failing as the economic model to keep the internet functional.

Its been is discussion for a decade by people that know about how all this works, the consensus is we are going to have to start having a QOS model, where voice / gaming and other applications get low-latency access and video, which can be buffered and is only one way get the left-over bits

Verizon network is NOT the issue, I have no issues, even at peak times, but I'm not using consumer NetFlix/Gaming/Youtube, which are over-subscribed at the source, not the destination

Oh an there are maybe 5 people moaning about this, out of a couple thousand BBR members that have FIOS
RolteC
The Need for Speed
join:2001-05-20
New York, NY

1 edit

RolteC

Member

guppy, that is finally a much more clear and concise explanation of what is really going on.

A few people might be right, including myself when we said that out own PON card or something in the CO has going bad or has become oversubscribed.

I say the above not only because of pings and tracerts, but because I couldn't download a few times in the last two months over 10Mbit/sec, VOD was not perfect, VOD menu's took 5 seconds or more to respond, Verizon said they couldn't figure it out and that there was loss at the OLT..... Downloading made my pings to my first hop and on go from 25 to 300 with packet loss during those few nights. Mind you it wasn't for hours on end, just in spurts. Still ruins everything. Some people like myself have users playing games, parents watching VOD and myself trying to dropbox/remote desktop and share files with the fiance. Everything experiences lag/cut outs and just plain annoyances. But once again, my specific example is rare. That is why I started MRTG graphing to a few hops plus outside peers to graph when things happen.

Edit:
Come to think of it, I haven't checked my graphs in a while. Busy with work/family. But looking at my charts towards 4 different FiOS connections, they all have the same spikes around the same time every single night. My first hop graph looks normal, my second hop ping chart is showing the same spikes.
Xtreme2damax
join:2007-03-21
Port Byron, NY

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Do I know you from somewhere? Just asking since you posted my name and the initial of my last name. Then again probably not since I nearly forgot my website is in my signature and my whois details are in view for the whole world to see.

I would contact Verizon if I didn't feel it was such a waste and would actually lead to a solution. Plus it's hard for me to get on the phone since I have symptoms of autism which makes it hard for me to verbalize, have productive conversations and socialize in general. The prime reason why I never ever use voice chat in game. If contacting Verizon online was sufficient enough I'd go that route since I have no issues expressing anything in text form.