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InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to sunnyd71

Re: [DSL] Bell FTTN 50 Mbps tier

said by sunnyd71:

I'd say for the appearance of annual upgrades when it is cheaper to physically do larger upgrades bi-annually.

What physical upgrades would those be? They are using the same equipments they started rolling out around three years ago - even the old VDSL2 Stingers and Cellpipe modems could do over 70Mbps when the distance is short enough so upgrades were not the reason for holding back.

From the rumors I remember reading, this seems to be about 1.5 years later than when Bell originally wanted to roll it out.

Well, at least now it is done.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to HeadSpinning

said by HeadSpinning:

If Bell's CBB rates to wholesale customers are truly based in reality, and not in fantasy, then they shouldn't be able to economically offer unlimited on 50/10 FTTN.

Well, some of those wholesale customers are still somehow managing to offer unlimited with those rates for lower price than the incumbents' nearest equivalent.

It is called averaging. The average person who pays for "unlimited" uses nowhere near that much. As long as the price is set right with a broad enough spread of usage patterns, it averages out fine.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to sunnyd71

said by sunnyd71:

How can you check line stats in Bell's Sagecom?

I don't know, I don't have a Sagemcom modem. Those line stats were pulled by TSI.

Looks like Bell says I don't qualify for 50/10, even though my line stats say I should be able to...
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

said by HeadSpinning:

If Bell's CBB rates to wholesale customers are truly based in reality, and not in fantasy, then they shouldn't be able to economically offer unlimited on 50/10 FTTN.

Well, some of those wholesale customers are still somehow managing to offer unlimited with those rates for lower price than the incumbents' nearest equivalent.

It is called averaging. The average person who pays for "unlimited" uses nowhere near that much. As long as the price is set right with a broad enough spread of usage patterns, it averages out fine.

ISPs have already stated that with the CBB pricing model, even after price increases, they're no longer making any profit on wholesale GAS services. The only reason they've not raised them yet is because they're waiting for an appeal on the CBB rates. Every month the decision is delayed costs them money, but multiple package changes in a short period only angers consumers, which serves the incumbents interests.

By the way, I'm not an idiot. I understand the concept of averaging usage, probably more than you ever will.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


creed3020
Premium
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to 34764170

WOW, Bell has brought back Unlimited. They just played an ace from their deck, not sure how many of those they have left...

This gives them just a little more carrot to dangle in front of people to ensure they don't cancel, and I don't like that they will use this now to sway people from making a better choice. Especially when you consider that the discount is tied up with a bundle, clear gouging there.


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to HeadSpinning

said by HeadSpinning:

ISPs have already stated that with the CBB pricing model, even after price increases, they're no longer making any profit on wholesale GAS services.

Start.ca did not exist on legacy tariff rates. I doubt a new entrant would be able to stay in business long enough to see the CRTCs' decisions to produce favorable tariff changes if they did not set prices to manage a profit on the services they offer now, however thin it may be.


silvercat

join:2007-11-07
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by InvalidError:

Start.ca did not exist on legacy tariff rates. I doubt a new entrant would be able to stay in business long enough to see the CRTCs' decisions to produce favorable tariff changes if they did not set prices to manage a profit on the services they offer now, however thin it may be.

Even Start is not making a profit, at least in Cogeco served areas, even with their revised packages:
»Re: New packages are available


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to HiVolt

Teksavvy wont be able to support 50meg dsl very well, since they can't even sustain 25meg in peak hours...

The 1gig AGAS model is horribly broken, they need to push for 10gig if they are to remain competitive.
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!


HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to InvalidError

said by InvalidError:

Start.ca did not exist on legacy tariff rates. I doubt a new entrant would be able to stay in business long enough to see the CRTCs' decisions to produce favorable tariff changes if they did not set prices to manage a profit on the services they offer now, however thin it may be.

Start is an established ISP that newly entered the cable market. As has been pointed out above, they're not making money on CBB rates.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to 34764170

said by 34764170:

So I see that Bell will be rolling out a new FTTN 50 Mbps tier soon. As I had predicted they would do. I wonder how long until TSI has access to said tier.

bell learn what a megabit is yet?
ya know 1 megabit = 125kilobytes/sec?


creed3020
Premium
join:2006-04-26
Kitchener, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to HiVolt

said by HiVolt:

Teksavvy wont be able to support 50meg dsl very well, since they can't even sustain 25meg in peak hours...

The 1gig AGAS model is horribly broken, they need to push for 10gig if they are to remain competitive.

Completely agree with you. This is an example where TSI cannot roll out the service because the underlying infrastructure is so limited that they can't compete effectively. It's not fair whatsoever to wholesale that 10Gige is not on the table as 1Gige links get fill soo quickly. We're talking 20 customers to fill up one AGAS link. That only changes to 40 customers when we consider 25Mbps client who are clearly being affected by congestion today, which you know very well yourself from all the tests you've shared with us re. TSI login vs. Bell login.


BTC Kevin

join:2011-10-01
Nepean, ON
kudos:1
reply to Guspaz

My Sagemcom modem had a line sync stats of 53,872 kbps down/10 in Ottawa, Carling Ave. and Moodie.

But I live next door to the old Nortel HQ, and my DSLAM is located about 800 feet from me. Also the old Nortel fiber ring passes through this community.



Rickkins

join:2004-04-05
Mtl, Canada
reply to 34764170

Velcom's 50/10 seems like a very nice deal. Gonna wait to see what Teksavvy offers though....



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to creed3020

said by creed3020:

said by HiVolt:

Teksavvy wont be able to support 50meg dsl very well, since they can't even sustain 25meg in peak hours...

The 1gig AGAS model is horribly broken, they need to push for 10gig if they are to remain competitive.

Completely agree with you. This is an example where TSI cannot roll out the service because the underlying infrastructure is so limited that they can't compete effectively. It's not fair whatsoever to wholesale that 10Gige is not on the table as 1Gige links get fill soo quickly. We're talking 20 customers to fill up one AGAS link. That only changes to 40 customers when we consider 25Mbps client who are clearly being affected by congestion today, which you know very well yourself from all the tests you've shared with us re. TSI login vs. Bell login.

I totally agree that we need 10gig. So, dont think I'm defending anything... that being said though. A gig link is way better than what you see on cable... even with 8 chans on DOCSIS.. you're talking a max of 200-240mbit per second for all those on that segment... the odds of many others having those higher speeds on that segment are low but I can tell you that I just activated 60 meg here on Cogeco and my hood only has 3 chans bonded... so, I can rarely actually get my full 60.. when you compare a gig link to that... it's actually plenty...

...oh and we will for sure be doing a 50/10 package.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to creed3020

said by creed3020:

We're talking 20 customers to fill up one AGAS link. That only changes to 40 customers when we consider 25Mbps client who are clearly being affected by congestion today

You can fit many more 50/10 and 25/10 subscribers in a 1GbE link since the likelihood that ALL of those 20-40 subscribers will attempt to use their MAX speed at the SAME time is very low. TSI has ~34Gbps of AHSSPI capacity for ~70k Bell-GAS subscribers and if the average speed is 5Mbps, that works out to 10:1 oversubscription.

As far as congestion is concerned, TSI says NONE of their 1GbE links were anywhere near saturation any of the many times people (myself included) have complained about nightly slowdowns over the past week or two so whatever is happening, it is occurring somewhere else and seems to be affecting @hsiservice.net (IPv6) worse than regular logins for some reason.

That said, I agree that 10Gbps is very much overdue. I doubt there are many carriers anywhere else around the world that handle 20+Gbps clients in 1GbE increments... it is grossly inconvenient and inefficient. Sadly, the tariff structure does not promote efficiency and sound design.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

said by InvalidError:

said by creed3020:

We're talking 20 customers to fill up one AGAS link. That only changes to 40 customers when we consider 25Mbps client who are clearly being affected by congestion today

You can fit many more 50/10 and 25/10 subscribers in a 1GbE link since the likelihood that ALL of those 20-40 subscribers will attempt to use their MAX speed at the SAME time is very low. TSI has ~34Gbps of AHSSPI capacity for ~70k Bell-GAS subscribers and if the average speed is 5Mbps, that works out to 10:1 oversubscription.

As far as congestion is concerned, TSI says NONE of their 1GbE links were anywhere near saturation any of the many times people (myself included) have complained about nightly slowdowns over the past week or two so whatever is happening, it is occurring somewhere else and seems to be affecting @hsiservice.net (IPv6) worse than regular logins for some reason.

That said, I agree that 10Gbps is very much overdue. I doubt there are many carriers anywhere else around the world that handle 20+Gbps clients in 1GbE increments... it is grossly inconvenient and inefficient. Sadly, the tariff structure does not promote efficiency and sound design.

We had a look and the ERX where all the @hsiservice.net logins terminates is well under capacity.

What's likely happening is that some of the AGAS links are better than others due to the maintenance... we keep grooming the links (i.e. actually forcing people off some to try to push them to the other links that were upgraded/big red button) but those 4 links are still way under.

That being said, if all the links were well balanced, we did see last Sunday, a heavy day where some of the links did hit the ceiling. Otherwise we're fine. We're looking to add 5 more links soon also.

It so happens that Gabe is sitting right beside me and I asked him to hit the big red button.. so if you just went offline. sorry about that. we're trying to force more users on those 4 links.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


Rickkins

join:2004-04-05
Mtl, Canada
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

...oh and we will for sure be doing a 50/10 package.

Outstanding.....


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

I totally agree that we need 10gig. So, dont think I'm defending anything...

Well, the CRTC said that Bell had to provide 10 gig links if an IISP like TekSavvy asked for it, so... what's going on?
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

no news... we've asked... many have have asked... ...still nothing *shrug*
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4

It"ll be your Trustee in Bankruptcy dealing with Bell's request for payments on your 10G circuit setups by the time the CRTC gives the indies a fair shake.

All Bell has to do is delay just a little longer.


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

said by MaynardKrebs:

It"ll be your Trustee in Bankruptcy dealing with Bell's request for payments on your 10G circuit setups by the time the CRTC gives the indies a fair shake.

10GbE will not make or break TSI but it would make their life much simpler and more efficient.

Question is whether or not the CRTC will buy Bell's excuse that E320s' limited 10GbE port capacity prevents Bell from offering that. This this argument is one of the main reasons behind the CRTC's ~50% reduction on Bell's CBB rates, I bet Bell would file for a new revision if they upgraded their E320s to something beefier for 10GbE wholesale support and the CBB rate would bounce back to ~20k$/Gbps.

mikee

join:2012-12-21
Gloucester, ON
kudos:1
reply to 34764170

When will the new DSL packages be updated Marc? Sometime this week?


DeViLzzz

join:2004-07-29
Sarnia, ON
reply to neuromancer1

Absolutely ridiculous is the word for it LOL



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to mikee

said by mikee:

When will the new DSL packages be updated Marc? Sometime this week?

I've got many ideas still bouncing around and some things I'm still waiting for confirmation on but I/we are getting closer. I will likely have a really good idea by the end of this week. As soon as I'm pretty happy with everything, I'll share.. We're probably looking at a couple weeks past that to go live with any of it.

Some stuff like activations on FTTN DSL, I already know will be dropped in half. Unlimited between 2 and 8 will now be for all services. Some seem to be using it; thanks to those who do! it all helps keep costs down. I also want to do a two month rolling average for overages.. that's a bit more complicated to roll out so it may take longer to implement but I think it's the most fair way to go. It's what we used to do. I dont like surprises with my invoices any more than you guys do...

for the rest, you'll have to wait
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


Rickkins

join:2004-04-05
Mtl, Canada

Will there be any relief for those migrating from cable, which if I'm not mistaken is about to become much more expensive...???



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

said by Rickkins:

Will there be any relief for those migrating from cable, which if I'm not mistaken is about to become much more expensive...???

I dont think it will be "much more expensive".
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


Rickkins

join:2004-04-05
Mtl, Canada

Oh, ok.


blueprintz

join:2011-05-29
Kanata, ON
reply to 34764170

Glad to hear the 50/10 will be coming soon. I will be looking to move to this from cable, with the new rates I think this will be beneficial for everyone.


bbiab

join:2004-05-26

2 edits
reply to TSI Marc

-


bbiab

join:2004-05-26
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

said by mikee:

When will the new DSL packages be updated Marc? Sometime this week?

I've got many ideas still bouncing around and some things I'm still waiting for confirmation on but I/we are getting closer. I will likely have a really good idea by the end of this week. As soon as I'm pretty happy with everything, I'll share.. We're probably looking at a couple weeks past that to go live with any of it.

Some stuff like activations on FTTN DSL, I already know will be dropped in half. Unlimited between 2 and 8 will now be for all services. Some seem to be using it; thanks to those who do! it all helps keep costs down. I also want to do a two month rolling average for overages.. that's a bit more complicated to roll out so it may take longer to implement but I think it's the most fair way to go. It's what we used to do. I dont like surprises with my invoices any more than you guys do...

for the rest, you'll have to wait

It would be better to extend the unlimited window to 8 or 10 hours in lieu of averaging. My feeling was you did away with the averaging when the CBB started and you provided for off peak usage.