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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Da Bronx
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Clearwire Wireless

1 recommendation

reply to norwegian

Re: Security Flaws in Universal Plug-n-Play: Unplug, Don't Play

said by norwegian:

To be quite honest I didn't run the tool - why would you download, install or run a program, it basically voids any test - if it was a web based probe I would understand, but install internal to the network defeats the test, unless I miss something here?

No, you didn't miss anything. The only way to know for sure if your router's UpNp implementation is accessible from the Internet is to probe it from the Internet.

--
"Remember, remember the fifth of November.
Gunpowder, Treason and Plot.
I see no reason why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot."

"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people"



Cartel
Premium
join:2006-09-13
Chilliwack, BC
kudos:2
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Shaw
·TELUS

US Government Warns of Hack Threat to Network Gear

CERT in turn has tried to contact the more than 200 companies whose products Rapid7 have identified as being vulnerable to attack, including Belkin, D-Link, Cisco Systems Inc's Linksys division and Netgear.

Belkin, D-Link and Netgear did not respond to requests for comment.

»www.voanews.com/content/network-···376.html



NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1
reply to TamaraB


Wonder if there will be a BBR / DSL Reports tool for testing for UPnP security flaws.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to Cartel

said by Cartel:

US Government Warns of Hack Threat to Network Gear

I see this near constant interference by DHS with the internet as very OMINOUS.

Damn shame.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

2 recommendations

reply to NOYB

said by NOYB:

Wonder if there will be a BBR / DSL Reports tool for testing for UPnP security flaws.

Steve Gibson has announced he'll be adding a Shields Up scan and hopes to have it up by this weekend at »grc.com.

Steve often gets tagged as "alarmist" but may be justified in this case. He and Leo covered it rather well in today's Security Now: »twit.tv/show/security-now/389

This thing is a multi-level-fiasco. Vendors are using old code that was fixed, simplified sample code that never should be used and to top it off... it's exposed to the world by some kind of pure incompetence or neglect.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to NOYB

said by NOYB:


Wonder if there will be a BBR / DSL Reports tool for testing for UPnP security flaws.

I understand your desire to test it with some an automatic tool. But personally I don't see a way to automate that process. UPnP by design allows local applications to make port forwarding and open firewall for them. That could create security problem, but it's done by design and UPnP is just a tool for nefarious program, that you allowed to run inside your network.

In order to check UPnP for flaws you probably have to:
1. Scan router for all opened ports. If there is one - check to what service it's directed. If it's legal redirection (configured manually or via UPnP protocol) - no problem. If it's not - here is a potential security flaw, that you'd want to investigate further.

2. Always watch UPnP table of current port redirections. If you see some strange and unexpected one - go for the program that has requested it. If it's legitimate request? Then it's fine. If it's not, you have perhaps a trojan in your local network, which may use UPnP as one of the ways to do its dirty job. It's not a problem or (or with) UPnP. UPnP will just indicate potential problem with your local network.

3. If, as a result of p1 test or p2 watch, you'll find an opened port / forwarding to a host, that is not requested by any program -- now that could be considered as a flaw in UPnP. But first, it's hard to discover... and second, even in this case, it could be a problem with some program, that had requested that service and did not turn it off after it was done, and, therefore, it's not an actual problem with UPnP.

But in any case, begin with p1 test...
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Hi OZO. I think you're assuming the uPnP is confined to the LAN. One of the "you have to be kidding" in this is how millions of routers are apparently and incorrectly exposing uPnP on the WAN side. They're responding to UDP port 1900 on the net!


OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Yes, of course. I presume that:
1. Any security aware and sane user will never allow to configure UPnP from WAN side.
2. Opened port / service that will allow to do that (configuration form WAN side) will be discovered in p1 test.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...



Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
reply to Bill_MI

This is why this thread is discussing turning off UPnP. Both on a machine (LAN), and in the router (WAN). Those are the main vectors of vulnerability, right?
--
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots." ~ Albert Einstein



Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

1 edit

1 recommendation

said by Juggernaut:

This is why this thread is discussing turning off UPnP. Both on a machine (LAN), and in the router (WAN). Those are the main vectors of vulnerability, right?

There's several layers of problems here. 1) uPnP has no intended function to EVER be on a router's WAN. Never! Makes no sense. Yet by something right out of a horror flick - it is! And by the millions. 2) These uPnP routers are also full of vulnerable code, much of which has been known for some time but never patched.

I'm not worried about my personal case. My compiled OpenWrt has no sign of any uPnP module, never has, and never will. BETTER than turning it off is not having it in the first place.

EDIT: Sorry, I think at least one of us (me) got confused in terminology.

The router's LAN responds to uPnP client requests and includes all sorts of functions. uPnP Clients such as XBox, TVs, Windows machines, etc. control the router this way. This LAN part of the router was never intended to be on the WAN of that same router... yet has been found there by the millions.


norwegian
Premium
join:2005-02-15
Outback

1 recommendation

reply to TamaraB

Click for full size
said by TamaraB:

said by norwegian:

To be quite honest I didn't run the tool - why would you download, install or run a program, it basically voids any test - if it was a web based probe I would understand, but install internal to the network defeats the test, unless I miss something here?

No, you didn't miss anything. The only way to know for sure if your router's UpNp implementation is accessible from the Internet is to probe it from the Internet.

I did miss a little after seeing the tool when the link above was a download tool.

If you are accessing the internet from your home network, we now offer an alternative to ScanNow and Metasploit. The Rapid7 UPnP Check is a one-click security scan for broadband and mobile users. If you are concerned about the security of your non-technical friends and family, this is a quick way for them to check their home router for UPnP vulnerabilities. The main difference between this service and ScanNow is that the UPnP Check will run a scan from the internet and can only check the external interface of your router.

It doesn't work for me though. Chrome had a cog turning, IE9 doesn't do anything.
--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke



AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Bill_MI

said by Bill_MI:

said by NOYB:

Wonder if there will be a BBR / DSL Reports tool for testing for UPnP security flaws.

Steve Gibson has announced he'll be adding a Shields Up scan and hopes to have it up by this weekend at »grc.com.

Steve often gets tagged as "alarmist" but may be justified in this case. He and Leo covered it rather well in today's Security Now: »twit.tv/show/security-now/389

This thing is a multi-level-fiasco. Vendors are using old code that was fixed, simplified sample code that never should be used and to top it off... it's exposed to the world by some kind of pure incompetence or neglect.

you have to blame MS for this.
--
* seek help if having trouble coping
--Standard disclaimers apply.--


TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
join:2000-11-08
Da Bronx
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Clearwire Wireless
reply to norwegian

said by norwegian:

It doesn't work for me though. Chrome had a cog turning, IE9 doesn't do anything.

Nor for me either. There is no Mac version. Glad to see it can test from the Internet though. If Grc adds an Internet test for this it would be great.


planet

join:2001-11-05
Oz
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

1 edit

said by TamaraB:

said by norwegian:

It doesn't work for me though. Chrome had a cog turning, IE9 doesn't do anything.

Nor for me either. There is no Mac version. Glad to see it can test from the Internet though. If Grc adds an Internet test for this it would be great.

Wouldn't work on iOS/Safari either. Cog just spins.

Wouldn't GRC Shields Up work for this? I thought the scan pinged port 1900 UPnP.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

said by planet:

Wouldn't GRC Shields Up work for this? I thought the scan pinged port 1900 UPnP.

We need someone vulnerable to try it. To my knowledge, GRC only does TCP and this port is UDP, at least to start. I'm pretty sure Steve is isolating the scan out to be very specific and, if I know Steve, it might query for info (but maybe not, too).


Wily_One
Premium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
reply to planet

said by MrFixit1:

You can use »netalyzr.icsi.berkeley.edu/ to at least test for UPNP access from the wan side .
Will be near the top of the results listing ,may have to hit + to get full details .

said by planet:

said by TamaraB:

said by norwegian:

It doesn't work for me though. Chrome had a cog turning, IE9 doesn't do anything.

Nor for me either. There is no Mac version. Glad to see it can test from the Internet though. If Grc adds an Internet test for this it would be great.

Wouldn't work on iOS/Safari either. Cog just spins.

Neither Netalyzr or the Rapid7 net scans work, period. I tried them on Win7/IE9, WinXP/IE8 and WinXP/Firefox. On some it does nothing, on others the scan runs all the way through and continually repeats, never taking you to the Results.


planet

join:2001-11-05
Oz
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

Click for full size
The scan worked with FireFox on XP for me.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Wily_One

I've use netalyzr for many years on XP and now Win 8. On XP, I sometimes had problems with it not starting but that is because it didn't like my old version of Java which eventually would run only on IE6 and so both IE and Java were too old for it. It was fine once I finally updated Java.

On Win 8, it works fine on Fx 10 ESR, Opera 12 and IE 10. It is an excellent tool to analyze your network connection. It tells me some bad stuff about my connection that concerns me more than UPnP which I already knew about anyway.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson