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TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to mlerner

Re: CNOC speed matching decision due next week

Hey gang,

Well, it looks like the decision is out. It's been denied. I'm still waiting to hear on the exact details on the upload part but it appears to me that its also denied at first glance.

I'll be giving more details as we figure out our plans but this certainly affects our planning as well though.

So, to recap for those who may not understand what's going on. The CRTC tariffs that regulate these services was split up in to two branches about a year ago.

The tariffs that have existed for many years are what we are calling TPIA (Third party internet access). It will continue to exist until the better part of this year at which point we will have to migrate to the new branch and the old branch will no longer exist.

The second branch, the new branch is called Aggregated-TPIA.

Today's decision describes what speeds should be available in the TPIA branch. The decision effectively tells Rogers to make more clear what exactly those speeds are. Effectively, those speeds are what we currently have available. We also have access to a higher speed that we haven't been selling.

The decision that describes what happens in the Aggregated-TPIA branch was released just before the new year. That decision states that Rogers must provide exactly the same to us as to their own users.

Today TekSavvy is on the old branch or TPIA. However, as required, we are in the process of migrating over to the Aggregated-TPIA.

I will get a list to describe what each branch offers. And more importantly, what speeds you will automatically end up with when we migrate over to Aggregated-TPIA in the months ahead.

Additionally, it's important to highlight the key differences between the old and new branches. The biggest difference is that in the old branch, Rogers entire footprint was divided into roughly 50 different points of interconnect or POI as we call them. Under the new branch, we have a single place where we have access to their entire footprint. This is why its called Aggregated-TPIA.

As it stands today, we are connected to 20 of those POIs via 74 gig links. We have two more to be delivered in the next week. ten more in another batch and 19 more on order past that. This is simply to keep pace with the demands we currently forecast. So in total that's 105 gig links.

That means that there are 30~ish POIs that we currently do not service.

We have been in the process of setting up Aggregated-TPIA for those other areas. Those areas, would have full speed matching as a result once we go live. Current estimates are sometime in March.

For the existing 20 POIs, which cover the most populated areas. As you can imagine, it is quite a migration to go from one to the other. We have been and continue to work with Rogers to plan this out. It requires both us and Rogers to build facilities both to sustain the existing setup as we continue to grow and as well to build out the new facilities as we transition over.

Each branch use a different network on Rogers end. This is due to the nature of the way each branch is designed.. one is aggregated, the other is not and have many connection points.

It appears to me that this is largely the reason why the speed matching decision was denied. And frankly, had speed matching been approved, it would likely have caused us congestion if they would simply have upgraded it willy nilly... so to some degree this decision is in fact better in the way of providing a stable service for what you all currently have. It also makes it easier for us to plan for capacity due to the existing network being free of sudden speed changes that would affect total capacity needed but also in the new Aggregated-TPIA, there are simply much less links to manage. We will go from having 100+ links to 10-15 (10gig) links...

Now that we know what the decision is. We can better finish planning since we didn't know if we needed to add more capacity to the existing network or if we needed to plan to add that capacity to the new network once we migrate over to it...

To date Rogers has worked with us to provide a smooth transition and I expect the same to continue. Once I have more details as to timing of transition of each POI from TPIA to Aggregated-TPIA I will post that. Also, once I know exactly what speeds will be migrated to what speeds I will also post that. This second one, I believe is already fairly established but I will confirm.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5

OK Marc & WHOA, yeah that post certainly helped me see the LIGHT with some clairity after being rocked by the earlier news on the decision.

said by TSI Marc :

We will go from having 100+ links to 10-15 (10gig) links...

Also, now that I can see reason for the denial of the speed matching request in light of your post description, it doesn't feel quite so doomy & gloomy

I think I'll hang on and wait for your follow up post(s) regarding the transitioning plans with a reduced anxiety level before venturing the bazillion questions teeming at the back of this skull of mine.
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

1 recommendation

said by TwiztedZero:

OK Marc & WHOA, yeah that post certainly helped me see the LIGHT with some clairity after being rocked by the earlier news on the decision.

said by TSI Marc :

We will go from having 100+ links to 10-15 (10gig) links...

Also, now that I can see reason for the denial of the speed matching request in light of your post description, it doesn't feel quite so doomy & gloomy

I think I'll hang on and wait for your follow up post(s) regarding the transitioning plans with a reduced anxiety level before venturing the bazillion questions teeming at the back of this skull of mine.

Yeah, I think this was actually a measured response by the CRTC and frankly by Rogers too.

Now, dont get me wrong, I'd have preferred the higher upload speeds and I'd have upgraded the existing network and done anything to make it work either way but it did make for extra investment into something that's getting dropped... it still does make for more investment but less now to some degree.

As far as what it means for us.. frankly, I dont think it will do all that much in the way of new signups and people migrating since it's just a few months away in most cases and everybody knows they're going to get the upgrade anyway...

at a glance this is what everybody can expect (I'm still confirming this)

once we move to Aggregated-TPIA existing users who are on these speeds will automatically get converted as below:

18 goes to 25
28 goes to 35
32 goes to 45
75 goes to 150
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

Webslingerac

join:2004-05-01
canada

This CRTC decision in addition to suffering on the McNicoll POI during Prime Time is a tough pill to swallow.



Bren27

@centtric.com
reply to TSI Marc

i am wondering, with the switch to Agg coming in March, will Teksavvy be able to offer the higher rogers packages, Example 75 or 150?


darrylr

join:2003-02-10
Nepean, ON
reply to TSI Marc

Marc,

Will you still offer the unlimited Ontario cable packages once we're on aggregated POIs? If so will the price move up because of aggregated POI?

I'm currently on the 28/1 unlimited pack.



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

1 recommendation

said by darrylr:

Marc,

Will you still offer the unlimited Ontario cable packages once we're on aggregated POIs? If so will the price move up because of aggregated POI?

I'm currently on the 28/1 unlimited pack.

for sure... hell yeah. what good is an awesome internet connection if you cant use it!
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

1 recommendation

reply to darrylr

said by darrylr:

Marc,

Will you still offer the unlimited Ontario cable packages once we're on aggregated POIs? If so will the price move up because of aggregated POI?

I'm currently on the 28/1 unlimited pack.

The bigger issue for pricing is the pending CRTC - Capacity Based Billing decision. That's what will determine any price changes if any.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy

londoner1

join:2007-04-26
London, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc

"Once I have more details as to timing of transition of each POI from TPIA to Aggregated-TPIA I will post that."

TSI must have some preliminarily planning already done on this. I for one would like to know some approximation as to when York (London and area) will be Aggregated. Further once the Aggregated is up would new customers be placed on that prior to existing customers being moved onto it?



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

said by londoner1:

"Once I have more details as to timing of transition of each POI from TPIA to Aggregated-TPIA I will post that."

TSI must have some preliminarily planning already done on this. I for one would like to know some approximation as to when York (London and area) will be Aggregated. Further once the Aggregated is up would new customers be placed on that prior to existing customers being moved onto it?

The thing is that it depends on the existing network... if Rogers doesn't have much capacity left on the TPIA network.. we will likely look to migrate that specific POI sooner rather than later since otherwise they would need to build more facilities to accomodate it.. each POI has it's own set of specifics.

This is what we're sorting out still.

As for new users. It's actually based on the POI your connecting to... so if you're on an Aggregated POI i.e. one of the other 30~ish POIs that we currently do not cover.. than yes you will get the higher speeds right away.

For existing POIs.. as they get migrated, any existing or new customers will go on that POI no matter what it currently is.. i.e. new subs get the same treatment regardless.. it's based on the POI, not the sub... any one POI is either Aggregated or it is not.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


Teddy Boom
k kudos Received
Premium
join:2007-01-29
Toronto, ON
kudos:19
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

We will go from having 100+ links to 10-15 (10gig) links...

Apparently that isn't as obvious to Rogers as it is to everyone else..
»Re: Upcoming maintenance
--
electronicsguru.ca

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

The bigger issue for pricing is the pending CRTC - Capacity Based Billing decision. That's what will determine any price changes if any.

My most optimistic bet is 6k$/Gbps, my pessimistic bet is 15k$.

Some of the way the fees are structured needs to be revisited: if an incumbent refuses to offer 10GbE unless there is at least a 3Gbps commit, it means the incumbent puts too much of the port fee in the per-Gbps component so some of that cost appears to be obviously misplaced - the port fee should be higher but per-Gbps fees revised downward by an equivalent amount so incumbents have no reason to object to ports with 0Gbps on them.

The way peak traffic gets calculated should be based on aggregate rather than individual links. The rigid per-link commitment puts crippling arbitrary limits on service - the incumbent is already aggregating your 70+Gbps of traffic to your aggregated-POI, it makes no difference (risk-wise and cost-wise) whether you receive it over 7x10G or 10x10G... other than the incumbent receiving extra rent for the extra 10G ports.

Those issues did not get as much attention as they deserved in 703/704.

londoner1

join:2007-04-26
London, ON
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to TSI Marc

if you're on an Aggregated POI i.e. one of the other 30~ish POIs that we currently do not cover.. than yes you will get the higher speeds right away.

So at some point Aggregated will go live and anyone that currently can get Rogers coverage (but not TSI) ie Brantford would be able to signup for the new packages (25/2, 35/3 etc). Then over time all the existing POI's will be migrated (before the end of 2013)....But the first step is the Aggregated POI.

I will say that once aggregated comes online existing customers on Dis-Aggregated POI's are going to be pretty unhappy if all of a sudden new customers are getting higher speeds (UL/DL) at the same price that the rest of us are paying for our existing plans....

Any insight as to when that (aggregated coming online) may happen ...I think i saw a post that it was Feb/March?



TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
reply to Bren27

said by Bren27 :

i am wondering, with the switch to Agg coming in March, will Teksavvy be able to offer the higher rogers packages, Example 75 or 150?

TSI Marc See Profile allready mentioned that in his post above. 75 or 150
--
----|- From the mind located in the shadows of infinity -|----
Nine.Zero.Burp.Nine.Six
Twitter = Twizted Zero
Chat = irc.teksavvy.ca

MaynardKrebs
Heave Steve, for the good of the country
Premium
join:2009-06-17
kudos:4
reply to TSI Marc

said by TSI Marc:

we will likely look to migrate that specific POI sooner rather than later since otherwise they would need to build more facilities to accomodate it.. each POI has it's own set of specifics.

This is what we're sorting out still.

So, if you were to hazard a guess - which order are POI's likely to be converted to Aggregated, ie.
1) Bloor
2) Dupont
3) etc....

If you could provide this information - even if it's on a preliminary basis - I think it would cut down on the amount of carping.

nitric

join:2012-01-29

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by TSI Marc:

we will likely look to migrate that specific POI sooner rather than later since otherwise they would need to build more facilities to accomodate it.. each POI has it's own set of specifics.

This is what we're sorting out still.

So, if you were to hazard a guess - which order are POI's likely to be converted to Aggregated, ie.
1) Bloor
2) Dupont
3) etc....

If you could provide this information - even if it's on a preliminary basis - I think it would cut down on the amount of carping.

It's probably correct to assume they'll go from downtown Toronto out. Highest population density and then spread outward from there. This is typically how most upgrades etc are pushed out.

The Mongoose

join:2010-01-05
Toronto, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable

said by nitric:

said by MaynardKrebs:

said by TSI Marc:

we will likely look to migrate that specific POI sooner rather than later since otherwise they would need to build more facilities to accomodate it.. each POI has it's own set of specifics.

This is what we're sorting out still.

So, if you were to hazard a guess - which order are POI's likely to be converted to Aggregated, ie.
1) Bloor
2) Dupont
3) etc....

If you could provide this information - even if it's on a preliminary basis - I think it would cut down on the amount of carping.

It's probably correct to assume they'll go from downtown Toronto out. Highest population density and then spread outward from there. This is typically how most upgrades etc are pushed out.

I'm not so sure about that. If I were them I'd want to test the process on some smaller POIs before trying to scale it up to the big one where a failure in the transition process would affect a massive number of customers.


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable

1 recommendation

said by The Mongoose:

I'm not so sure about that. If I were them I'd want to test the process on some smaller POIs before trying to scale it up to the big one where a failure in the transition process would affect a massive number of customers.

Well they said that they will turn up the Aggregated POI for all the areas they don't serve as of yet, then move onto migrating existing POI's one at a time.
--
F**K THE NHL. Go Blue Jays 2013!!!


PlatooN

join:2007-02-13
Kitchener, ON
reply to TSI Marc

this may seem like a simplistic approach but follow me here.

Since you have more links on order, and APOI is coming up very soon to cover the rest of the footprint. Is it not possible to cancel the new links on order and just start activating new subs (and maybe move a few subs to lower demand on current links) on the APOI gear?

It would seem like a more future looking approach than putting in more links (no doubt with contracts, and man hours attached to them) that will be redundant in 8 months?


da_guy2

join:2003-06-10
Kanata, ON
reply to HiVolt

said by HiVolt:

said by The Mongoose:

I'm not so sure about that. If I were them I'd want to test the process on some smaller POIs before trying to scale it up to the big one where a failure in the transition process would affect a massive number of customers.

Well they said that they will turn up the Aggregated POI for all the areas they don't serve as of yet, then move onto migrating existing POI's one at a time.

ACTUALLY, if you read back somewhere, they said they will do areas they don't service followed by POI's that are currently at or over capacity. These could be small POI's that require a single extra link, or a big POI that would require multiple extra links. Last on the list will be POIs that have sufficient capacity and aren't expected to grow.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

1 recommendation

reply to HiVolt

Mongoose is correct.. that' exactly what we've asked for.

We may look to try to accelerate things now that we know.. and i think also there's incentive for Rogers also to accelerate things since they're the ones that need to make those additional investments if not... and we'd rather not commit to more than we need to on the existing stuff if there's a way to avoid it..

All around all the motivational factors are all pointing in the right direction.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


yabos

join:2003-02-16
London, ON
reply to HiVolt

I think they should migrate London first

/no bias here



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26
reply to PlatooN

said by PlatooN:

this may seem like a simplistic approach but follow me here.

Since you have more links on order, and APOI is coming up very soon to cover the rest of the footprint. Is it not possible to cancel the new links on order and just start activating new subs (and maybe move a few subs to lower demand on current links) on the APOI gear?

It would seem like a more future looking approach than putting in more links (no doubt with contracts, and man hours attached to them) that will be redundant in 8 months?

Right. So the problem is that they need to build a 100+ gig network between the APOI head end and our POP at 151 Front.

In the mean time, we continue to signup more subs... its a bit of a similar situation to a year ago where everybody was saying stop selling... wait for more capacity... our ability to stop on a dim is very limited...

So the first 10gig links that are getting installed for ATPIA will be to light up all the "other POIs" and also one area. If I'm not mistaken the one that's been thrown around was in Ottawa. Dont hold me to that yet though.

After that it's a matter of adding more 10 gig links... and as we add more.. we migrate more.. but the thing is also that we already have 10 gig links.. so we need to migrate some over and as they get freed up.. we can migrate more to the existing 10 gig links as they get re-provisioned on Rogers end... its this whole shuffling of things around...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


PlatooN

join:2007-02-13
Kitchener, ON

said by TSI Marc:

said by PlatooN:

this may seem like a simplistic approach but follow me here.

Since you have more links on order, and APOI is coming up very soon to cover the rest of the footprint. Is it not possible to cancel the new links on order and just start activating new subs (and maybe move a few subs to lower demand on current links) on the APOI gear?

It would seem like a more future looking approach than putting in more links (no doubt with contracts, and man hours attached to them) that will be redundant in 8 months?

Right. So the problem is that they need to build a 100+ gig network between the APOI head end and our POP at 151 Front.

In the mean time, we continue to signup more subs... its a bit of a similar situation to a year ago where everybody was saying stop selling... wait for more capacity... our ability to stop on a dim is very limited...

So the first 10gig links that are getting installed for ATPIA will be to light up all the "other POIs" and also one area. If I'm not mistaken the one that's been thrown around was in Ottawa. Dont hold me to that yet though.

After that it's a matter of adding more 10 gig links... and as we add more.. we migrate more.. but the thing is also that we already have 10 gig links.. so we need to migrate some over and as they get freed up.. we can migrate more to the existing 10 gig links as they get re-provisioned on Rogers end... its this whole shuffling of things around...

yeah I hear you. I guess it's a matter of how the back end works. Once your inital APOI is online, do you have an options to add sub's to either APOI or POI?

If so I would immediately start signing up EVERYONE to APOI and just have rogers start building there. If an old POI gets overloaded, grab 15-20 high usage subs and move them over to free up load.

Granted it would require some active management of the situation but would (i ASSUME) result in some major cost savings over lighting up 20 or so gigE links that you will just turn off again in less than a year.


TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

no.. it's by geography/POI... a POI is either ATPIA or it's not... until it's migrated over.. everybody, new of existing gets the same *on that specific POI*.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



PlatooN

join:2007-02-13
Kitchener, ON

well that pretty much crushes that plan. Considering they're totally different infrastructures you would THINK you could do either or.



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

well, it would mean adding a whole new set of IPs and routing back through their entire network...

the routers need to know to send it to the ATPIA path or the TPIA path.. only way to do that is to have different pools of IPs...
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

said by TSI Marc:

well, it would mean adding a whole new set of IPs and routing back through their entire network...

the routers need to know to send it to the ATPIA path or the TPIA path.. only way to do that is to have different pools of IPs...

I guess more importantly.. we asked them to do that and they said they wouldn't or couldn't do it.. and frankly, I can understand it given the above.
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy


Confused

@rcmp-grc.gc.ca
reply to TSI Marc

Dear Marc,

I am giving you till December to make the switch to higher speeds. If you don't do that by then I will be switching to Start

Thanks


da_guy2

join:2003-06-10
Kanata, ON

said by Confused :

Dear Marc,

I am giving you till December to make the switch to higher speeds. If you don't do that by then I will be switching to Start

Thanks

You can be guaranteed it will be by December. If they don't do it by November they get cut off.